Since this issue or variations of this issue was brought up in different threads, I thought I would start a new thread about it.

Are keyboards today giving us all that they can give us with respect to the computer technology. Should we be demanding more and seamless interaction and integration between keyboards and computers?

Are we getting enough memory, software compatibility and upgradeability for keyboards?

Sometimes I wonder if we should compare the advances of consumer computer technology which has a larger user base with keyboard technology.

One of the problems I have with keyboards today is that I feel that it does not seem as if manufactures are concentrating on major software development. I know that they are not computer experts, but these half steps that they are doing with software development makes it seem as if the keyboard technology is way behind other computer base products.

Should we be demanding more from keyboard manufacturers?

Ah - this sounds like digitalvision's thread...

As I've pointed out in previous discussions, the problem with getting so-called "current technology" into a keyboard is the development time it takes to design, manufacture and program a keyboard. It appears that the timeline from concept to shelf is about three years optimistically... so you have to use circuits and processors from 2002 to have a keyboard ready in 2005. That's not to mention training the sales and tech team that has to be in place for customer support, authoring and printing manuals, etc. And not only that but the keyboard has to appeal to a broad user base for the mass production effort to pay off, which keeps the unit cost down. This is no small feat.

I think the customizable Open Labs eKo concept is the closest to bringing current computer technology into a music product, but at very high cost because of the low demand.

I think the solution is for some company to develop keyboard "shells": controllers that hold laptops conveniently and provide the necessary audio and physical interfaces. But evcen then you'd have to deliver 61/76/88 note versions both weighted and non-weighted. And a really good "shell program" would be needed too so that the laptop OS behaved more like the OS of a synth.

Otherwise, keyboards like the Motif that can provide a Firewire computer audio/MIDI interface seem to provide the closest bridge between computers and keyboards that we have currently. And I think more companies will adopt the idea of making keyboards that readily interface with softsynths in the future.

I'm not all that sure that consumers on the whole are ready for souped-up keyboards. I see that Roland has provided it's V-Link on the new G70 arranger and I started thinking "oh boy, a way to interface video projection with an arranger for interactive a/v concerts!"... then I think about the cost to do such a show and how many of my current clients would have an interest in it or could afford to pay me more to present such a show - the answer is none. My used and discontinued Yamaha 9000 Pro is already way above what most people can relate to, either in terms of utilizing all of the features it has as a performer or in terms of entertainment value to an audience.

The demands I would like to make of keyboard manufacturers are relatively small: for example, I would like to see Yamaha put it's Tyros or CVP-900 arrangers into a 76-note "portable pro" package. That's not asking for more than what they can do with technology they've already developed. And it's not asking for more than I can use as a pro player. Otherwise I think that keyboards will continue to be dragged into the future at their current technological pace.

Maybe the question should be ...Are KB Players all they could be? It doesn't matter what fancy shmancy things they come out with if many people can't play, understand or utilize them. Yea they'll tease & fleece us along as they have been doing for years and years because they have to keep making money without giving away the whole enchilada.
A few peoples wants and needs wont sway the vote vs the masses vs the companies profits & thats the bottom line.....so hang in there, enjoy the ride, & save your pennies...



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-20-2004).]

Yeah, what Pro and Donny said, and...

Keyboards are products of market demand. Yes, there is a definite market for higher-end machines, but Yamaha makes a lot more money selling PSR 180s and the like as it does selling Tyros and PSR 3000. Roland does the same thing. And don't forget all of these manufacturers have home digital pianos that have the same or similar features.

If I could have my dream machine, I think the upcoming G70 is pretty close. As an organist/pianist, I see the G70 having most of the features I use. What I really demand is a hands-on interface that is easy to use, with a minimum of hidden pages.
For what it's worth...

The Tyros does everything I need it to do. Totally satisfied.
. . . now what's next?? Can't wait to see how much the G70 weighs. I'll bet it's a tank.
I would probably like the small GEM, but still haven't been able to demo one after, what, a year or so.
DonM

Keyboards that have a sampler built in like the Fantom X should be way faster. If they are going to include the possibility to expand your keyboard to 500mb sample space, then it shouldn't take 20 to 30 minutes to load 500mb of samples every time you turn the thing on. And, with 120 gig hard drives at your local computer store, is 192 megs of internal Rom that impressive? I mean sheesh, your current flagship keyboard is about 1/1000 the size of a current harddrive?

One thing that amazes me is the length of time that the Korg Pa1X takes to load, process and save. Anything I do on my computer takes a fraction of the time (and I paid a fraction of the price for my desktop computer than I did for the keyboard).

Secondly, the touch screen of the Korg is such hard work to use, that I believe the designers really screwed up here. The concept is great, but the implementation is poor.

Don't get me wrong, I love the sounds of this keyboard, but you sure work for it! I'll be very interested to compare the G70 when it comes out too!

------------------
Graham

This is a little OT, I'll respond to this taken out of context, "but these half steps that they are doing".
I realize that mfg's need to make money, but these 1/2 steps and also 1 step forward, 1/2 back is frustrating. Yamaha removing the buttons from the PSR3K, that is so wrong. Will they re-introduce them with the next model?
1st the Tyros had Mega voices, now the PSR3K has mega voices, next year, the PSR1500 replacement will have Mega voices. Duh..Gee that is so inovative. The software on the PSR1500 looks similar to the PSR3K. So is the PSR1500 all that it could be? No. Could they have made it better? Absolutely.
The PSR550 has been replaced by a downgraded PSR450: More voices, but XG voices downgraded to XG light, more high quality voices, but can only record on 6 tracks, the PSR550 had a button below each track, this is gone on the 450 (more give and take-away). If Yamaha would have introduced the PSR450 without being downgraded, I would have upgraded, but the PSR1500 is out of my budget (for now). Was this a marketing mistake?
Ok I am just ranting. I apologize. The good news about all this, especially for me (since I can't afford either one right now), is this. "TIME IS ON THE CONSUMERS SIDE". The longer you wait, the better keyboard you will have. So I will patiently save my pennies. By the time I can afford a PSR1500/PSR3K they will have become even better. The PSR1500 will be where the PSR3000 is today. Maybe the PSR3K will have all the buttons returned.
Starkeeper

P.S. Here's my prediction( for the record): The PSR1600 will have mega voices. We'll see.


[This message has been edited by Starkeeper (edited 10-20-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Starkeeper (edited 10-20-2004).]

The ad' banner says it all at the top by showing a picture of a Triton. Got to be the worst case of an upgrade. It's still a souped up Trinity, and they came out, what? 8 Years ago. Same for several other companies.

The BOTTOM LINE in the corporate world is profits. Whatever they can get away with to drive up profit & sales, they'll do. It's up to us the consumer to determine whether it's worth it (to us) to UPGRADE to the next model (yet) or not. Hardware & software Manufacters are banking their products on built in obsolescence. Only when sales drop will the keyboard manufacters only bring out new models when significant feature advancements are made. Power to the people. We drive the market. - Scott

Well said Scott

Yamaha,
I vote with my dollars. the PSR450 did not entice me to upgrade from my PSR550. I notice that the PSR450 has that awesome sweet soprano sax, but no sale (too big a downgrade).
Starkeeper

The real drive comes from inside, not what someone gives you, and unless companies keep innovating, even they, as large as they are, may come up against an oncoming juggernaut.

The juggernaut is there if you look for it, and not too far off, wink



[This message has been edited by digitalvision (edited 10-20-2004).]

I take your point Scott but the only fly in the ointment can be that if we don't buy their latest "Flagship Model" in sufficient numbers they can decide that there aint no market any more and do a "Technics". We would then have to go on playing our Tyroses into infinity..
Mmm! yes I think I could cope with that!!!!!

Trevor

I would agree with this but my Yamaha 9000 Pro is the exception - there is no "upgrade" and Yamaha has been almost adamant in not producing a "Tyros Pro" to make up for this... yet. And the funny thing is that since the 9000 Pro accepts PLG expansion cards but the Tyros doesn't we are in a unique situation: I have already pre-ordered one of the new PLG150-AP acoustic piano expansion cards which Yamaha claims has their latest/greatest grand piano samples - so my obsolete 9000 Pro will soon have the top-of-the-line triple-strike piano sounds from Yamaha and the current flagship Tyros won't. So much for built-in obsolescence! This makes a discontinued keyboard model more desireable than the current model for some users like me. I don't know what marketing genius dreamed that scenerio up but the only way Yamaha can counter that blunder is by releasing a Tyros Pro that accepts PLG cards.

Heh heh...

Are the new keyboards today all that they could be?

Hardly .....



Yes, I think so. All Yamaha arrangers will have Megavoices - and the upcoming new topkeyboards might have more megavoices and again lots more sweet!, cool! and such voices.
An increased polyphony and more layering of voices, maybe more outputs etc.
Maybe the XG-voices will slowly be abandoned to make place for the better voices, so the sound of the styles will be better.

There are different techniques in different boards, like the Motif ES and the PSR3000 - both Yamaha, but where PSR3000 has styles, Motif ES has patterns. These patterns could be a replacement for the Multipads on the Yamaha arrangers.
And so we can dream forever.

The ultimate arranger isn't there yet..!

------------------
drdalet

[This message has been edited by drdalet (edited 10-21-2004).]

And it never will be drdalet

If I could suggest just one positive step for the manufacturers it would be to design the instruments with focus on the way that the customers use them.

Some examples:

Multitrack Recording

Eventually, we all out grow facilities such as Yamaha's Quick Record and want to lay down discrete tracks in conjunction with a sequencer. To do this, we need to be able to communicate/control all the important parameters including voices and DSPs seemlessly between the sequencer and the instrument.

It is very difficult to do with todays products. Sometimes the instrument does not send the necessary data and sometimes the sequencers simply remove events that the instrument manufacturer has included. The engineers would quickly realize this problem if they attempted to use the instruments as this class of customer does.

Performers

The one man band and other gigging performers want to be able to organize their Sets on a laptop and specify everything from the midi load, registrations, vocal harmony settings, lyrics, performance notes, etc. While you can control most outboard gear via the PC, the Yamaha synths lack the commands for controlling most of the instrument. If the enginners tried to set up a gig, they would realize this immediately.

I don't believe that the profit motive is a big factor with the design of these instruments. Most of the manufactuers seem focused on outperforming their competition with products which arrive on a regular time schedule. The time schedule is fixed, and the number of issues far outpaces the resources available. We may dilute their program and confuse the priorities by insisting on our own pet features (easy to do when we are not aware of the overall product strategy of the manufacturer).

The solution that I offer is to replace our requests for features with demands for application capabilities.

Regards,

Michael

One thing I think keyboards today should have is the ability to display the screen of the keyboard on a computer. I am not talking about a video display but a software program where you can access functions from the keyboard on the computer.

Similar to how you can connect a cell phone or a PDA to a computer and control some of the parameters from the computer.

But given the way keyboard manufacturers are dragging their feet with being innovative and creative with the products they are putting out it will probably be in 10 years that such a thing would come in to existence.

Only some of the lesser known keyboard manufacturers are trying to integrate computer technology with music and keyboard technology. But because they are not the “big 3”, we as consumers disregard them and their ideas, don’t support them and pretty much blast them out of existence. It is only until the “big 3” take it upon themselves to link computer technology with keyboards will we see the light.

"One thing I think keyboards today should have is the ability to display the screen of the keyboard on a computer."
What a fantastic idea, as long as you can also display the data without a computer. It has been said that, eventually, the TV, stereo, internet, movies, music, will all be integrated. Why not have the keyboard, integrated with this as well? Not enough buttons on the keyboard, no problem, just use the computer keyboard for more input. Hard drive space - no problem. Multi-tasking, the keyboard can be playing a style, while the computer can be accessing a database for the next setup.
When will I play my keyboard, when my wife watches TV?
Starkeeper

[This message has been edited by Starkeeper (edited 10-25-2004).]