Andrea,

I can and do use the ES as a master controller. I can assign the 4 assignable knobs to control any 4 synth parameters of my choice, and I can change the cc #s of those knobs at will, and I may even be able to assign MSB and LSB data to them if I wish. The knobs actually have a couple of "scenes" that can be changed instantly, so really I can go back and forth and control up to 8 parameters, plus I can assign the ribbon controller, Mod wheel, and assignable pedals to other parameters as well. This is very cool for controlling ADSR and any other functions on a soft synth or hardware module, and even cooler when I use a softsynth that has "midi learn", because then I don't even have to change CC #s in the Motif. I simply pick the parameter of my choice by right clicking the mouse, and turning the knob I want to use for the parameter.

What I cannot do is rememeber the correct patch and bank numbers for very many voices on an external module, so I cannot imagine trying to reassign patches in real time with the ES' knobs, and I cannot assign anything other than the propietary bank #s with the user voice buttons or with the Combis, which are the rough equivalent of your registration memories on an arranger. I change patches and synth setups using my vsti hosts ( FL , Chainer, etc ) and I have saved several different setups in each for my favorite synths.

I don't believe the PA1x is going to have the assignment capabilities that the ES has, and how many assignables does it have ? The PA80 has one and it's fairly limited. You cannot change any bank or patch data with it.

How would you change patches from it ? If you didn't need to change patches from it, then you can use it as a controller, provided you can link up the rest of the midi data that you'll need. Not only that, but even if you could change it, you probably won't be able to use it with a Tyros or other XG board. Yamaha and XG call for CC controls( including patches and banks ) using 1-128, while the GM, and most other manufacturers ( including Korg ) use the standard 0- 127.

You may be right Andrea, but perhaps it would be best to ask Korg if the PA1x can send all bank and data changes from 0-127, or is it limited to just what PA1x's module uses ? Pretty much any midi kb can send bank and data changes btw.

Cheers,

AJ

Hi again,

while using internal Pa1X data you can only select the bank sel/program ch. of internal and user sounds (mainly available on GM2 compliant sounds cc0=121 and 120).

Switching to external sound the behavior changes: you get "external" as sound name and pushing it, instead of having the usual sound selection interface, you get the calculator where you can type your desired combination of cc0, cc32 and pc.

I think you can go safe with this, being compatible with every instrument I've tested with.

Cheers.


[This message has been edited by Booby (edited 09-30-2005).]

If that's true, and you can write these into memory ( along with a way to name these memories ,) then maybe you are ok Andrea. I'm only playing "devil's advocate" here because I think maybe I have a pretty good bit of "hands on" trying to wire through different modules and play in real time. Maybe it's just me and I'm missing the whole point anyway, since I tend to think in terms of being able to control more than a few parameters ( analog freak at times here ), and this is probably more about using an arranger.... but my experience has been that it isn't always quite as simple to do this stuff on the fly as it is to talk about it. OTOH, if it's for studio or home play, and you have the time to fiddle with it 'til your happy, then maybe it wouldn't matter as much.

But since I've gone on for so long about this already, I might as well cotinue the Devil's advocate thing ( I know..killjoy right ? lol ) and ask a few more Qs....

So you can see this on the screen too I presume Booby ? And it would be convenient so that you could do this to one layer while keeping the rest of the board to internal, so that let's say you can control and voices or samples 1 and 2 of the PA1x's internal module and perhaps voice 3 for the Tyros, or maybe a Motif rack. Oh and what if you are using a Yamaha module as your external... will the PA1x also call up CC#s and banks 1-128 like Yamaha's XG ( Tyros ) and non XG ( Motif ES ) boards do ? If it does, ( I doubt it but I've been wrong before ) and you are going to use only a few voices, great.. If you want have a little more flexibility and switch, just how are you going to enter all those Tyros or Motif or Hypersonic ( as you can see I have no real clue what Andrea would be trying to control with it ..lol ) bank and patch combinations with the ability to change on the fly ?

I use my ES as a controller only because I'm comfortable with it and the way the keys feel. I had a dedicated controller before ( M Audio ), but the keys were spongy and I didn't like the interface all that much, so I traded it away for some custom work on my Les Paul. I still think a dedicated controller is always the best way to go. I just haven't had the time to research for a replacement.

AJ


[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 09-30-2005).]

Booby: thank you for your reply: much appreciated!

Scott: yes, I still think that the G-70 has the best keybed among all the arranger keyboards... too bad that its master kb abilities are almost non-existent... The Korg, at this point, seems much more interesting, not only because looks like it can be used as a master keyboard, but also for its ability to play a loop together with a style. It's true that Roland is going to implement this feature in the G-70 as well with OS 2.0, but the new styles I heard (on the danish site) were a BIG disappointment: they sound like a Roland arranger from the past... maybe it's because they use sounds drawn from the GM bank? We will see...

AJ, I am currently using my Roland A-37 to control two modules: Yamaha Motif ES rack and Fantom XR; the A-37 has 128 memories (or registrations) and all I have to do is select a midi channel, a bank change number and a program change number for each memory and then save these settings (together with others, like panning, volume, effects, octave shift, etc) into a memory slot.
Of course, it's impossible to remember all these numbers, but every module (or synth) has an appendix in the user manual where they are listed (the first number is for the bank, like User 1, User 2, Preset 1, Preset 2, etc, including the Multi Banks, and the second is for the program, of course). In both modules I have grouped my favorite sounds in the User 1 bank and this simplifies things a bit; another simplification comes from the fact that I have later saved all the sounds in ascending order, grouping them in categories (acoustic pianos, electric pianos, organs, etc).
I am 100% sure that you can do this also with your Motif ES; I think that you have to enter into Master mode first, but I agree that the Motif isn't the simplest synth to work with (eufemism of the century...)
Now, why am I planning to buy a Korg PA1 X pro? Well, because I love the concept of having, for all my songs, a set of registrations, and -for each registration- being able to recall not only a style and one or more internal sounds, but also sounds from external modules, to layer with the internal ones or maybe to play alone (setting the volume of the internal voices to "0").
Of course you could do this also with a digital piano, like the Roland 700 SX, or a synth, like the Motif ES or the S 90-ES or the Fantom X, but as far as I know the PA1 X-pro is the only 76 notes arranger keyboard that can do this.
Now, wouldn't that be a cool concept?

[This message has been edited by Dreamer (edited 09-30-2005).]

Yes it would be a cool concept Andrea. It wouldn't work well for me since I need real time control of my analogs, but it might be excellent for you. I hope it works the way you want it to.

I would have to try it in the Master mode of the Motif, but I still don't think so. I know how midi data is implemented and accessed on the ES, but I'm quite certain that non propietary banks cannot be stored in a Motif user voice. Perhaps ther could be some way in a performance, but I already have to load the extra performances I've stored from a USB thumb drive, since the ES only holds 128 internally.

It really wouldn't matter much to me anyway if I could do this, since I find it easier for me to assign parameters to my softsynths via the midi learn function and assign names, store, and recall setups and voices from the laptop with Chainer or FL, as opposed to scrolling through the menus on the Motif. The Motif isn't even close to being an ideal controller anyway, but it's a stopgap for now 'til I find a new controller that I actually like. Even then, I plan on working a lot of the same way, assigning the standard ASDR and other midi cc's to the controller and then assign other functions to each synth via midi learn.

Good Luck with it Andrea and let us know how it works out if you go this way. I'm pretty sure the PA1x is quite the bit of kit for an arranger anyway, just on it's own.

AJ

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 09-30-2005).]

Andrea (Dreamer): I too came to these SAME conclusions after having auditioned BOTH the Roland G70 and Korg PA1X pro. It was so frustrating to find such disappointing sounds coming from a keyboard (G70) that has such a terrific responsive keyboard action & intuitive navigation. What was Roland thinking?! To now find its master keyboard abilities so limited only adds to the disappointment. - Scott

Hi,

if I've well understand your request, everything it's possible of what you ask. Also selecting "on-the-fly" an external patch (using the calculator) if you have good mind of the three numbers to type.
Example 121.004.032, but any number can be assigned to any value (cc0, cc32, pc), overtaking any GM, XG, GS, whatever format. If it's compatible with midi it works.

Everything can be saved as a performance (with its name) or in the 4 sts (one name each) associated with every style and also with smf/mp3 if you like this (this functionality is included in the SongBook feature).

Hope this help.

Cheers.

Andrea, are you sure the G70 is limited as a master controller..?

I have not played one yet, but checking out the manual..it appears to have most of the MIDI parameters and control of the previous models..

Gone ..is the 32 channel operation[why?].,but most of the other parameters that I use on my G1000 are still there..

I think my G1000 is an excellent controller..In realtime[not arranger /style mode], I can transmit on 7 different channels[lower 1 and 2, upper 1,2 and 3..Bass,and Melody[added channel for harmony,but can play as a single channel]..

Most likely the G70 can do the same..

As for program changes for internal and external[seperately]..this can be done by arranging and smartly using the performances[Registrations for you Yammies]..

I can select a designated performance to set my tones on the G1000,,lock out the tones with the lock button[freeze for you Yammies]..and select a coresponding performance that will set up my MIDI program changes[all seven of them]..

Another great design Roland uses is the MIDI set..You have 8 midi sets available at the touch of a button..I utilize these in real time, mostly to control the multiple voices[channels] going to my external vocalizer....
They change your set ups smoothly with no hanging notes..including octave selections and filters..

Throw in the best key bed available...my favorite controller...

I wouldn't short sell the G70 without checking closer to what it can do, with a little imagination..

I don't recall the Korg PA80 being a good controller at all...Is the new model really improved in the midi implimentation?...I bet the G70 is better..!!.

Fran,
to take into consideration the G-70 (or every other arranger) as a master keyboard, it would be necessary that it could do what my Roland A-37 does: send to external devices bank and program change numbers, plus other parameters, like volume, pan, reverb setting (dry/wet), chorus setting, octave shift, note transpose, etc. With the A-37 I am able to store all these settings in 128 different memories, so each time I recall a memory I have a different program/performance already set on my Motif ES rack and my Roland Fantom XR.
Apparently, the Korg PA1X-pro can do the same, with the added bonus that I can save one or more registrations for each one of the songs I play, and can layer the internal sounds with the external ones.
I have never owned a Korg arranger and my only Korg synths in the past have been an M1, a T3 and an M3rack; by comparison, I have owned many more Roland synths/arrangers (D-50, D-550, D-70, JD-800, JD-990, E-20, Pro-E, G-800, VA-7...), so I guess it could be said that I am more a Roland fan than a Korg guy, but...
given the informations I have gathered till now, I think I can say that the PA1X-pro definitely is a better master controller than the G-70.

Let's just wait and see: Roland, Korg and Yamaha are about to unveil new models or OS updates, so let's keep our fingers crossed...
Thank you for your detailed reply. I really appreciate it.
Andrea


[This message has been edited by Dreamer (edited 09-30-2005).]