I have been a Tyros owner for almost two and a half years by now. Before that I had PSR9000 and before the PSR9000 I had PSR4000. At the moment I also have S08 and I use it mostly as a digital piano. In many ways I like Yamaha keyboards. They all have had very high quality sounds and many advanced features that I like. These two are the main reasons why I always choosed a Yamaha keyboard. But in many ways I have been disappointed. For example the OS of the PSR9000 was not ready when I bought it. I had to wait for six months to get the OS version 2 and even that was full of bugs. Also the customer support of Yamaha here in Finland is very poor. I didn´t even get the OS 2 manual.

The same thing is going on with the Tyros. There are some functions missing on the current OS of Tyros. Also Yamaha doesn´t support Tyros owners at all. I haven´t seen a new OS update for a long time. Also Yamaha doesn´t support Mac users very well. The Tyros Mac software is so poor that I don´t use them at all. I also don´t like the styles. For example the styles PA1Xpro are much better. So the Tyros will be my last Yamaha product.

Things change. Today I don´t much need the styles anymore. The truth is that I don´t need a keyboard anymore. What I need more and more is a synthesizer. A synthesizer like Korg Triton Extreme or Roland Fantom for composing and recording music and also for creating sounds. I also need more and more the features that a synthesizer has (like sampler, SPDIF connection and etc) and less the features that a keyboard has (like vocal harmonizer).

The poor thing is that I don´t have much knowledge about synthesizers. I have two options Korg Triton Extreme and Yamaha Fantom. Which of them is better? I want to have a synth that has very high quality sounds and is easy to use. I would also need a good sequencer and the possibility to add more sounds to the synth later.

So the question is, which of the two synths should I buy? I would be very grateful of all your help.



Micco

Well, you could go to any forum and get many differing opinions on whether a Triton or Fantom is better. I don't think either is better, just a little different from one another, and each has it's strong suits that will make an individual like one or the other better.

I have the Motif ES btw, which is the main competition to the Fantom X and Triton Extreme. I won't tell you it's better, just that it's the right one for me. I surely wouldn't turn down either of the others if someone wanted to give me one though. Play around on both of your options for a while if you possibly can. That's truly the best way to decide.

BTW, not that it matters, but none of these fit the classic definitions of what most users think of as synthesizers. These are all workstations, that have unique features that synths don't ( and sometimes vice versa ). Most players might think of subtractive analog or analog modeling or some other type of synthesis ( there are many types including sample based) when you use the word synthesizer.

AJ

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 04-29-2005).]

I can't really tell you what's better but if you like Yamaha then the choice propably is...the Fantom??? Isn't it a synth made by Roland?

Otherwise if you're using so much synths by Yamaha then a new sound colour made by Korg could be amazing. But at the end you will have to decide it for your own. Like Bluezplayer said try to figure it out! You have your own key feeling and your own imagination of that what should come out of it...

------------------
Greetings from Frankfurt (Germany),
Sheriff ;-)

LOL Good point Sheriff. I missed that one myself.

Micco..

Triton series = Korg

Fantom series = Roland

Motif series`= Yamaha

AJ

Micco,

You make some great points regarding Yamaha, Tyros, and arranger keyboards. I agree with all of them!

I have the Tyros, the Motif ES 88, and a Korg Triton Extreme. I have played the Fantom. Each of these boards have their own personalities. I purchased the TE for it's Synth and Orchestral sounds, easy interface, and variety of sounds.

I purchased the MOTIF ES for the keybed (88 weighted keys) and the piano sounds, I purchased the Tyros again for orchestral sounds, fast patch selection, and rehearsal.

I have played the Fantom, and it has some great Piano and other sounds. I was very impressed. In the end I think the MO ES has the best overall sound, the TE biggest quantity of quality sounds and great interface.

My needs have changed as well. I am now thinking about selling both the MO ES 88 and the TE and purchasing a high quality MIDI controller and then going to RACK units. I really don't use the sequencers or composition features of the MO and the TE very much as I play with bands. I use the Tyros for sequencing and style performance.

I am also growing very weary of the Tyros. I HATE the keybed. I need 76 keys, I hate the Vocorder, and the support for new OS releases has been horrible.

I am seriously looking at getting the Roland G70. That has the FAntom pianos plus you can add expansion boards (SRX) and samples.

Al

Do you think we'll ever see a G70 at Alto ?

Great store, maybe one of the best in all the land even.. but I don't expect to see one there. I'd love it if someone close by had a floor model though...

AJ

Al,
if you are interested in a master keyboard with excellent piano sounds I suggest that you give a look at the Roland RD 700 SX: it has both the Fantom piano (which I believe is a Yamaha) and the new Roland piano found on the SRX-11 card (which is a Steinway). Both pianos were sampled at four velocity levels, note for note.
As a master keyboard it can have up to four zones and can trasmit bank and program changes to two separate midi outs. You can save all your settings (internal and external) in registrations (or whatever Roland calls them), both internal and external (it has also a USB connector).
All in all, it has a lot of interesting features, including two SRX slots and, by the way, costs a lot less than the G 70, which has NOT the same master keyboard functions.

Roland 700 SX

[This message has been edited by Dreamer (edited 04-29-2005).]

Hi Andrea (Dreamer): The RD-700SX: http://www.rolandus.com/products/details.asp?catid=11&subcatid=45&prodid=RD%2D700SX

sounds like an excellent choice, but how about it's 88 note brother, the RD-300SX: http://www.rolandus.com/products/details.asp?catid=11&subcatid=45&prodid=RD%2D300SX

The RD-300SX's significantly lighter (35 lbs vs 54 lbs) affording much easier transportability for gigging etc, and significantly less expensive too, yet both include the awesome Fantom X acoustic piano sample. I believe the only real difference between these boards (of which explains the huge weight & price difference: RD-300SX street price: under $1,395 & RD-700SX s treet price: under $2,195 ) is that the RD-700SX utilizes actual fully weighted HAMMER ACTION piano keys whereas the RD-300SX has 'compact progressive hammer action' whatever that means.

Has anyone here had the chance to audition and/or compare both of these keyboards? Are the master kb capabilities & other features of these 2 kbs the same?

I for one am most interested in the RD-300SX and interesting in getting more info & feedback on it on how the action & it's keyfeel COMPARES to the semi-weighted keyfeel on the Roland G70 or Ketron SD1.

I'm also wondering if either (or both) of these keyboards includes the classic Fantom X's piano feature which simulates the change of sound which occurs when a Grand Piano's lid is raised and lowered. Thanks.

Scott

hello scott, i played both the RD700 and 300 b4 buying my Promega2 and i owned,briefly, an X8.. they were all at the same shop..the rd700 btw is 88 notes as well..the rd700 felt like it had the same keys as the fantom x8,close to the real thing with good key travel and the sensation you get when striking the real wooden key of an acoustic.roland claim this to be their best ( they're prob all made by Fatar anyway!) the rd300 felt more like a stiffer va76 keyboard(or a very stiff synth action with a small bit of wood feel..hard to describe accurately hope that helps))..there IS a definite difference between the two..if you prefer the weight and slower response of an acoustic piano, then the rd700 would be it...if you like to play fast synth lead lines, prob the 300 would be a better bet..personally i went for the promega because of the keyboard modelling (eg the rhodes is almost impossible to pick from my old stage 73!!) and the keyboard was pretty much the same as the X8...
hope that helps scott

P.S. the midi capabilities of each are exactly the same, and they both carry the 88 note grand piano sample with its various options...although personally, i still reckon the sample on the X8 was just that little bit different to the RD's..slightly "fatter" if that means anything to you..they were all played thru the same set of speakers too..

dennis

peace, out

[This message has been edited by manic2257 (edited 04-29-2005).]

Dennis, thanks for your informative response. I'm wondering now if the Roland RD-300SX's key action & feel (except 88 vs 76 keys) might perhaps be identical to the impressive but much costlier G-70's. Anyone know? - Scott

scott, if i can jump in here again, i did play briefly (about 10 minutes) a g70 in canberra, when it first hit our shores, coz i was considering a switch from the PA1Xpro, and its keyboard, was almost identical to the VA76, if i can i'd like to add that the layout of the G70 was really impressive and, yes i'll use the word intuitive, far more so than the korg, everything was easy to get to and not several menu layers deep.on the rd series, and i am trying to picture them in my mind again, ... im sure the 300 and 700 had trad.piano shaped keys. the G70 has definiately synth keys and action..btw scott both rd 300 and 700 have 88 notes.

dennis

Yes, this is what Steve Fortner had stated in his Keyboard Magazine review as well.



Sounds like the 300 and G70's keys are at least a little different then. I'm anxious now to locate both these kbs in a local music store now to try (and compare) them myself now. I'm most attracted to the 300 for it's lighter weight and possibly using it in conjunction with my Tyros when solo piano performance is called for. I especially appreciate the FantomX piano, but concerned about how difficult (or awkward) it will be to midi it up to the Tyros with the 300 as controller. I fear access to arranger functions & buttons may be too awkward. Curious if and how many other members here trigger their arranger keyboard via remote controler kb. Interested in hearing how a setup like would work out in a performance situation. - Scott

i gotta say scott, trying to control the tyros arranger functions from the RD would be possible in theory i suppose, but a nightmare in practical gig-playing terms..but what a combination!! i personally dont trigger the arranger from a controller keyboard, i find it too awkward, but others may have had better experiences.

dennis

Dennis, interested in Skyping?:

My Skype name is: scottyee http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/010599.html

Scott

yes scott i might well be ..i read with interest the posts re this, might check into it... have just followed the link and bookmarked the page...i am about to do my bi-ennial re-format and re-load, so i will look at it after i do that..prob later tonight..thanks again. sounds like a real hoot!!! (hee hee no pun )

dennis

[This message has been edited by manic2257 (edited 04-29-2005).]

Dennis: Please email me first so we can arrange a chat session time, as the time zone difference between California & wherever you are in Australia is pretty huge. Thanks. Scott

no prob scott, will do

dennis

Scott,
as far as I know, the main differences between the RD 700 SX and the RD 300 SX are the different action, the lack of two expansion slots and -most important- the lack of the beautiful multisampled Steinway (I think it's called "Superior Grand"). It's true that the same piano can be found in the new SRX-11 card, just released by Roland), but since the 300 SX has no expansion slots the only way to have that sound would be to buy a Fantom XR and insert the SRX-11 into one of the SIX slots.
As you know, I had been thinking about the same lines: adding a 76 or 88 notes controller to my rig and play the Tyros via midi. I was thinking of the 700 SX because is very thin and this would enable me to lower the upper tier (where the Tyros would be) without compromising the access to the display and the buttons of the lower keyboard, but even so I think that I couldn't reach easily all the Tyros buttons and maybe should buy a pedalboard to trigger things like fills, style variations, etc.
Even most important, I don't think that I would feel at ease having to do things like editing styles or registrations, because ergonomically speaking it would be more tiresome and time consuming.
The experiences I had in the past led me to think that it's much better to have two keyoards on the same level, maybe at a 90° angle. In this case the G 70 too could be an option.
Anyway, if you are interested in reading more on the 300 SX. you will find some user reviews here: RD 300 SX user reviews

You can then compare them with the user reviews of the RD 700 SX
Ciao
Andrea

Roland never wants to say that the sounds from SRX-11 are coming from Steinway, Bosendorfer or Yamaha C3... They don't to pay the "copyright". I am a big fan of piano, I tried all kind of keyboards. From Yamaha to Roland, passing through Kurzweill and Korg.
I really like Roland sound with the plus of the keyboard action which is more close than others. IMHO, Roland sound is really pure, but speaking quality of piano sound, it's also really subjective. You love or not. Whatever we say, we need to listen carefully with a high end headphone and never compare it with different monitors because the comparison will be biased by the quality of monitor. Only one high end headphone for all that makes the best comparison.

Scott, I thing you have real piano, isn't it? Let us know you opinion.

A remark, the sound expension card can be combinated with the effects on the host keyboard which gives the better sound or not (enhacement of the hammer hitting, resonance in the piano case, and reverb...)

bbc,
An owner of XV-88 with SRX11 card and G70,
And a lover of piano sound.

"Make a test" means bring your own high end headphone for listening the direct sampled sound from the machines.

bbc,
have you tried the SRX 11 inside the G-70? How does it sound? And, since you spoke of "effects of the host keyboard", how are the internal effects of the G-70? Do they allow you to tweak a sound, like the "Superior Grand" the way you could in a dedicated synthesizer like the Fantom X?
I am asking this because in my VA7 the effect processor was the real weak spot of the keyboard, to the point that I bought an external unit (TC electronic M-One XL) to have a better sound; I hope that Roland improved this in the G-70.

I don't really know what you want to reach out, Scottyee, but if you try to use the sounds of two synths at the same time you should use a central midi controller - a computer with a sequenzing software.

You can use both keyboards as live manuals but you have to cycle one of them through your computer and from there you have to connect your both synths. This way provides the posibility for you to use all sounds (both kb) with your main keyboard via the computer and on your second (slave) keyboard you can use directly the one sound you've selected at the same time.

I don't recommend you to use your on-board sequenzer because it's built for internal use only. Of course, there are posibilities to record a sequence via midi direct into your on-board sequenzer but it wasn't made for live acts (too slow and too complicated).

------------------
Greetings from Frankfurt (Germany),
Sheriff ;-)

[This message has been edited by Sheriff (edited 04-30-2005).]

Hi, don´t forget RD 700 won the MIPA 2005.(Stage Piano) http://www1.mipa-award.de/nominees2005.htm#Keyboards/Software

Franky

AJ

[/B][/QUOTE]

Hi AJ

How are you my friend? Yes I was wondering the same thing until George Kaye stated that Roland will only sell the G70 through Piano and Organ stores and NOT general music stores!!! Can you believe that?

However, I still wish to try to the Korg Pa1xPro which Alto also does not carry. Maybe if you and I both bother Chris in keyboards he'll relent and put one out on display or get one in for us to play with.

On the whole, I'm very happy with Alto, they are great to me and help me when I need equipment fast or if something breaks down.

We should plan on meeting there someday in the future to say hi to each other.

Regards,
Al

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bluezplayer:
[B]Al

Do you think we'll ever see a G70 at Alto ?

Great store, maybe one of the best in all the land even.. but I don't expect to see one there. I'd love it if someone close by had a floor model though...

Dreamer,

You know something, I think I played the RD700. Is that the same board as the R700?

But your right, I forgot all about this board. I remember it having great piano sounds. Thanks so much for the reminder, I'm going to have to take a closer look now that you mentioned it. Thanks for the great advice!!!

Regards,
Al

Al,
the RD 700 SX is an improved version of the RD 700, in that it has both the same piano as the Fantom X and a brand new piano, found also in the SRX 11 card.

Andrea,
All SRX card use preprogram performances which are the combination of canonical sounds and mixed effects. If the host keyboard doesn't have those effects, the final sound will miss a part.
I don't try yet the srx11 card in G70.
In the XV88, when you put "multi-effect" on, I heard the more hammer sound and resonance on the basic sound of the note, like you put your ears near the chord and piano mechanism.
Some people have pb with S series of Fantom on http://forum.fantomized.info/?action=show_all&fid=9

Mini review of SRX-11
http://forum.fantomized.info/?action=show_thread&thread=7313&fid=9&page=1

bbc,
thank you for your reply and also for the link you gave me.

Micco,

I am from Finland and I have a Tyros in my studio too.

I read that you are interested in a synth. I would not choose the Korg Triton Extreme, Oasys or Karma. I have a Korg Trinity myself and what I like the most about it is the user interface and the edit features. However, I have always thought that Korg cannot make good sounds in every sound category. For instance the pianos, especially the accoustic pianos in the Korg Trinity are very bad... If I would go for a Korg today I would probably choose the Korg PA1-X, but today I wouldn't choose a Korg.

When it comes to sound quality you need to be aware of the current trends. Within the upcoming 10 years softsynths will be all over the place. I have NI Elektrik Piano and I was really chocked about how good it sounded when I first heard it! The price is 199 euro, compare it with a stomp box for a guitar... It is only a matter of time before softsynths sampled at 192KHz@24 are becoming a standard. Companies like Native Instruments and EastWest are going to come out with killer packages that really blow away the competition completely. With a Laptop and a firwire audio interface you can do any gig you like too with the power of a computer.

YamahaMan,
I was like you 1 year ago trying to have my best configuration to make music. Sounds are really fine but the one thing you really miss is the emotion and interactivity that changes the way you play at the moment. IMHO, I think it's not a good configuration to play music with a computer, even if the sounds are really great.
Regards

Hey, why not 5.1GHz @ 1024 bit sample rate? Do you really think that this would sound better for you? Hahaha...sorry, but I believe that you don't know a special physical fact:

The ears of a young child can't hear more than 20KHz (max. 22KHz). My ears (I'm 37 years old) can't hear more than about 16-18KHz and this ability will faint more and more.

Also the same with the resolution:
You won't really hear a difference between 16bit rate and 24bit rate (and more) because of the same reason. But if you really think that you will get better with 192KHz@24 then go your way. I don't want to hold you. But some day you will see that your HDD isn't sufficient enough for your recordings....and that's the only effect you will really notice...

Believe it or not!!!

------------------
Greetings from Frankfurt (Germany),
Sheriff ;-)

Sherrif,
I think YamahaAndy is right and your reaction on it is kind of 'sarcastic'.
Perhaps it is you who misses some physical knowledge

Higher samplerates are able to record/playback with better time-resolution. Wave-Harmonics exist far above 20kHz and they absolutely make a difference.

You write about 16 bit and 24 bit rates, what is very wrong. The 16bit and 24bit stands for 'resolution' (accuracy) what is very important for the dynamics in a song. The higher the bit-resolution the better dynamics.

About the HDD's : Don't you know the HDD-capacity doubles (or triples) every year ?
In IT, storage isn't an issue anymore.

Roel

No, it was not a'kind' of sarcasm but it was absolutly sarcasm because of it's true what I've said. It's always the same as with video resolutions on screen. There's no need for 24 bit colour resolution because this will bring you about 16 millions of different colours but the human's eyes can't differ more than 2 millions of colour steps...


Well, I guess you never created your own amplifier and so you also never messed out the dynamics of audio systems. If you had ever do so then you would know that I'm right. Try to built a tube amplifier with high quality dynamics and you will hear the truth...

I know that the sounds will change with the depthness of resolution but it isn't the right way of changing because we left the original sound quality more and more. The waves will sound like they never do in reality. We don't need gigantism.
I guess if I would tell you that my accoustic guitar sounds exactly like the 16bit wave of it you would never believe it and so my mission ended here...

If I were you I wouldn't believe all the things that manufacturers do write and proclaim! Note, they only want your money more than ever before. If you believe all those wrong informations you will be on the best way to be their slave...

Remember what I told you today. In a few years you will see the desaster on earth. I don't have to be a prophet for it...

And why do the HDD's capacities grow? Because MS drove you all into the arms of the reeper...hehehe
Oops, sorry for my new sarcasm but I think it's a little bit funny that YOU want to explain ME what's on with audio technology. I'm a hard- and software engineer and a musician since about 20 years! I have lived to see the growing of digital technology from the beginning. I've also seen the rise and fall of many manufacturers of new digital technologies. I'm still using venyl records and I'm also using digital records like CD (or sometimes mp3).
I'm a sound engineer since about 11 years. I'm working in my home studio since 11 years. I'm still working on an Atari but I'm also using Windows, Linux and Risc OS. But in all those years I didn't understand the unability of the most people in our small world to recognize what's good or bad, what's necessary and what's not. They're mostly crying like babies "what makes this for me?" and "why do that not function?" - it's terrible. But if I tried to help them they suddenly would do it for their own.
And so...here we are...in a world full of nasty humans without any correct knowledge and without orientation...but nevertheless they all mean to know it better than those who saw the desaster (those wo/men like me)...

And by the way, it's called 'Sheriff' not 'Sherrif'...

------------------
Greetings from Frankfurt (Germany),
Sheriff ;-)

to be honest this technology goes way over my head but,many years ago i went to olympia (a big exhibition in london) to look at the latest hi fi equipment,all the makers were there but one stand i went to ,the sound was UNBELIEVABLE it sounded like a large band,which most of us thought was hidden behind a curtain,a few of us even said so,the man in charge went to the back and pulled the curtain open,NOTHING, then he showed us this box,he took off the lid and all we saw was a system full of valves,its a pity i can,t remember the name of it,all i remember is that it was really expensive but sound wise superb,grahamuk you was in the trade i wonder if you know?it sure it wasn,t QUAD,mike

[This message has been edited by nardoni2002 (edited 05-01-2005).]

Sheriff,
Your Curriculum Vitae is 'impressive'. I think at the time I built my first amplifier (Tubes) you were not even born

My occupation/hobbies are the same as yours, I'm a musician since 1975. I started computing around that time and still do !As well gigs, recordings, equipment repairs etc.

Please try to respect other people's opinions/views and be a little more kind in your replies. Etwas mehr freunlichkeit und ein weniger Hochmut würde besser passen.

Grüsse aus Holland !

Well, I've said it and I do it again:
Remember what I told you today. In a few years you will see the desaster on earth. I don't have to be a prophet for it...

It's not a case of opinions but of facts.
You all can tell us your opinions but I will be angry with all those people who tell us lies. I'm still alive and I'm watching at you all...

And, I'm sorry if you think that I'm out of respect but it's that point that I feel unrespected by those who tell such wrong statements.

It seems to me that all newbies and all DAUs today are thinking that they would know so much more than an expert. Why is it so? Because they all believe all proclaimings by manufacturers.
Hey, a CPU running at 2 GHz is automatically faster than a CPU running on 500 MHz? If you're really that what you're saying then you should know that this isn't really the truth - it's only the half truth.
This example and many more are the reason why I'm telling you such sarcastic words. I'm working since 3 years with some friends of mine to keep the support of older techs because we had lost so many things (transistors, ICs, etc.) and we will lose so much more in future.
So I have to save knowledge and technologies and that's a real hard work you can't imagine. Everytime I cannon into the user's ignorance. Every time I have to correct errors by the blinds. Would you prefer go through the world with open eyes or with closed once?

I'm happy to live with open eyes but sometimes I wish my eyes were closed too. So I would not see the desaster and were happy like all the other people over our cruel world...

If I had the might like a God all people would live in happiness WITH OPEN EYES (and without PCs )!!!
Nevertheless, I love you all!!! And if you think that I'm wrong then go and ignore me like all the others do...

------------------
Greetings from Frankfurt (Germany),
Sheriff ;-)

Oh, by the way, your german isn't really bad! When did you learn it? It was nice of you to tell me some german words...

I have to add one thing: Every time I'm reading about technical nonsens this hurts my mind in a way you can't imagine. Sarcasm is only a part of my self-defense...
------------------
Greetings from Frankfurt (Germany),
Sheriff ;-)

[This message has been edited by Sheriff (edited 05-01-2005).]

You are right :
Ignoring your (weirdo) posts is probably the best thing to do.

Hast du getrunken oder änhliches ?

Not really but that's not a bad idea I guess...

Hey, I have to say sorry to you all who feel insulted by my unsensible words. You have to heave the same burdens like me and so there's no reason for me to treat you in such a way.

I stood up in the morning at 6:00AM on a sunday - and just today on the "Tag der Arbeit"!!! I'm trying to fit a studio related problem and I still didn't eat anything. The next time I'm posting I should eat something first...

------------------
Greetings from Frankfurt (Germany),
Sheriff ;-)

Well, after two days thinking about my posts I come to the conviction that their was no weirdness in my spelling. All I've written was absolutely right and it is a part of the actual knowledge. Please, read and think first before replying!!!

It is a big responsibility to save the whole society from their own weirdness and disability. I already sweared as a 5 years old little boy that I want to save the world because I saw it already in the beginning of my life that the humans are dedicated to die out (because of their mental illness).

You all need help - come to me and I'll help you!!!

To correct wrong informations is the highest aim of my mission. Unfortunality I'm the only one on earth who do so. So the mission will be lost, I know...

Hey, sometimes I feel a little bit like Don Quichote...
------------------
Greetings from Frankfurt (Germany),
Sheriff ;-)

[This message has been edited by Sheriff (edited 05-03-2005).]