well said, tom. and i was wondering about the duplicates. anyway, i have a close friend who plays totally by ear, and he wont go near a piece of music, but he does know a little theory. hes very big into harmony, and he plays quite well. but if anything, i, who plays almost totally using sheets, have more feeling when i play than he does. so i dont think that the whole feel thing is limited to ear people. i think it simply depends on the person. Zack

I equate musicianship to any other form of education. There are "street smarts" and "book learning" Both are viable and noteworthy (No pun) and each has a distinct advantage. It is very possible to achieve high levels of success playing only "by ear" but in order to be really complete as a musician ... you need to read as well. It's just like learning to talk. Babies learn to talk without reading, and that's OK for a while, but in order to take it to the next level, it's important to learn to read so you can broaden the scope of your knowledge with the experiences of others.

In the practical world of music performance - I'd rather play with a cat that has soul and feeling rather than just theory and technical training anyday. There is only so much the books can teach you, and then it's up to the player to make the notes their own. There are many people that have studied, and peaked early on and they will never develop "soul" or ever know the real meaning of how to "swing." These are things that have to be FELT. You can't teach these skills, and no books can even come close to showing you how. You either HAVE it or you DON'T. (hard truth?)

Music exists on the page, AND in the heart. It's a beautiful combination of form and fashion, and you should treat yourself to the entire experience.

I could read fly paper in college, but these days .... my performances are almost all done exclusively by ear. Even when I learn new material - I just sit down with the CD and start picking out notes till I get it.

Don't debate the validity of the two playing methods - they are both VERY real. Learn both, and you will be that much more complete as a musician.

Jedi - No, I've never met Alan Parsons but I've had Jimmy Page and Chris Spedding (these guys weren't using charts either) in on a couple of sessions back in the 60's.

Magic User - Thanks for your kind comment. The odd thing is, I don't really think of these things as 'accomplishments' as such. It wasn't really all that difficult, London was such a happening place in the 60's and 70's.

Tom Cavanaugh - To answer your questions, 1. Nope, never read a note of music in my life. This is because, regrettably, I've never had the patience to sit down and study it, my ears run away with me. 2. Nope again. I've never used fake books. 3. Chords have never presented a problem for me. Maj, min, dim, aug, et cetera in any inversion come easily enough to me. 4. I can find any key on the board and yes, I also prefer play to with my fingers :-).

Uncle Dave - Good, common sense, in your post. I would agree that a combination of both a good ear and proper training is the best of all worlds (this is what I was getting at in my first post when I said my fingering technique is all wrong) and, like yourself, give me the guys who can swing or rock any day of the week over the sterility (for want of a better word) of a lot of sight readers.

Oops, I've probably offended many sight readers out there now. But to paraphrase Uncle Dave, you either swing or you don't. That is the hard truth of it, unfortunately.

But hey, it's only rock an' roll and I like it.

Yeah ... what HE said!

Started playing drums (by way of my father) at the age of 6. Now the odd thing is, is my father was a musician all his life.. but when you start on drums (unless it's timpani) you don't really get into notes. Yes he instructed me of course on rests, etc. He got me into the cadet thing which I did until 11 or 12.
But I never took any formal training for either guitar or piano, which I really regret. One thing that facinates me, and this isn't always the case, but I've seen it a lot, is where a proficient pianist or guitarist can sit down with music in front of them...you take it away, and they're lost. This isn't the case with every pianist or guitarist, but I've sat down with them in the past, we've done a song, with them reading and myself playing by ear, and they've been totally lost without the music in front, no matter how many times they've played it. I would love to have that ability in addition to playing by ear. I don't sight read although I can plunk the music out given the time to break it down. I believe there's a lot to be said for both methods, or a combination of the two.
Just my thots.

There is a thought that both sight-reading and playing by ear are tools along the road towards pure expression. If you think about it, whether you learn music by eye or ear, you are required to formulate music through a series of mental processes until the input (the music you either see or hear) somehow equals the output (what you play). Really, what you are learning is hand and eye or hand and ear coordination. That's not really creating music, except as an after effect. Secretaries use pretty much the same skills when transcribing written and verbal meeting notes. Natural musicians (ie: those who play great with no training at all) rarely play a song the same way twice. Each time, they play what they feel which changes from moment to moment. The only term that encompases this phenomena is talent. Everything done to learn music is in fact a process used to emulate natural talent. So the goal of learning how to play music is actually to grow beyond what you read or hear and advance to a state of total self-expression. Essentially: we learn the rules, we apply the rules, we break the rules. For those with "the gift", there are no rules.

I wonder how Ray Charles and Stevie Wonder developed their magnificent talents. Do they really know how AbM7+9 looks like?

Both are important but

-Learning music reading and not having the talent (which I call the musical ear) will not make you a good musician
-Having the musical ear and not learning how to read music can still make you a good musician (with all due humbleness I am a living proof of that).

I won't deny though that I would love to be able to sit down and have a sheet music infront of me and just play it without having to have pre-listened to it. I wonder though, will I give it he same feeling as having listened to it and felt it before playing it?

My two cents.

Like others, I play by ear the stuff I know and have lead sheets for stuff I don't know. I can play "full sheet" but as I do this infrequently I find I've got rusty and tend to use the sheet music as a check to make sure my "by ear" version is still accurate!

I think you have to develop both. As mentioned already (and I can confirm this from personal experience) if you work purely by ear you can "miss" chords especially as the chords move away from "C Major" toward "C minor plus 9 and 11 with Bflat bass". Using sheet music can "teach" you chord and harmonic structures that you might not have met before; once you know what they sound like you become more able to "decode" songs you listen to. Certainly I have listened to a song on the radio that I learned yonks ago, and haven't heard for a while, and think "so thats what that chord is..." having played the wrong one for years!

It's pretty much all been said but I'll through in my bit too.

In reality, I think the more well rounded one can be with the musical knowledge the better off they will be, so if one can do both it can't hurt. That being said though, I think it really it depends on what and how you are doing your music. If you want to be a studio musician,or are doing covers, playing with other readers....you need to read. If on the other hand you are doing your own thing, it may not be necessary.

Over the years having been in several bands, (jazz mostly)I will say my preference for playing with other players has been to have people in the band that could just feel it (non readers)over the readers. The readers to me had too stringent and restrained of a style, too mechanical. For me they got too bogged down in the technical aspect of playing rather than getting into the groove and feel of the piece.

Me, I read only enough not to hurt my playing.
jam on,
Terry

[This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 08-02-2002).]