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#167976 - 08/25/05 02:12 AM Using arrangers with sound modules.
doc-z Offline
Member

Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 435
Loc: Norway
I was wondering how it would work to use an arranger, like the PSR-2000 or PSR-450 with a Module such as the Motif or Motif ES, will this make the sound quality the same or better than the Tyros? Will it require a lot of editing? or will it work out of the box? Anyone got a setup like this? would be cool to hear how it works..

Doc-Z

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#167977 - 08/25/05 05:03 AM Re: Using arrangers with sound modules.
pianodano Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 122
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia
Hey Doc,

I don't know just yet but I am about to find out. My Motif Rack ES should be here by the weekend. I actually bought it so I can send Tyros back to Yamaha and hopefully get it fixed. The usb problem has corrupted many song files, so I hope I can keep Tyros off the machine. I needed some way to keep my Yamaha sounds in the studio so I will have to jump in with both feet. My best guess is that it will have basically the same voices as the Tyros. My brother has one in his studio and I often send him midis which I have recorded here using Tyros voices via Sonar and he says they sound great on his Motif Rack.

Danny

[This message has been edited by pianodano (edited 08-25-2005).]

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#167978 - 08/25/05 11:14 PM Re: Using arrangers with sound modules.
rikkisbears Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 5834
Loc: NSW,Australia
Hi,
I think you'd find you need to do some editing/tweaking of the styles.
If I'm not mistaken, Motifs don't have the xg drum mapping that's used in a lot of the psr styles. ie you could end up with hand claps instead of brushes playing.

Basically you'd end up with the same problem that One Man Band software users have,
OMB plays PSR styles perfectly, but because the style was created for a psr soundsource, when a different type of soundsource is used ( motif, korg, softsynths etc) you usually have to do some tweaking on the style. Sometimes it's as simple as adjusting volumes, other times you may need to alter drums.

best wishes
Rikki

Quote:
Originally posted by doc-z:
I was wondering how it would work to use an arranger, like the PSR-2000 or PSR-450 with a Module such as the Motif or Motif ES, will this make the sound quality the same or better than the Tyros? Will it require a lot of editing? or will it work out of the box? Anyone got a setup like this? would be cool to hear how it works..

Doc-Z
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best wishes
Rikki 🧸

SX900, P121 Piano, Band in a Box 2020
V Arranger/Ketron SD2

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#167979 - 08/26/05 04:45 AM Re: Using arrangers with sound modules.
Bluezplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/10/00
Posts: 2195
Loc: Catskill Mountains, NY
I have OMB and the Motif ES. It works okay, but Rikki is correct about tweaking. Some of the Yamaha styles ( drum voices ) don't play quite right on it, yet other converted styles are fine.

I no longer have a PSR to cross reference quality of sounds, so I can only measure it vs the SYXG50 software XG module that I have. The XG software model is ok, kind of sounds like an older PSR, say the 530, but it isn't the quality of the newer models, like the 2000 I once had.


I can tell you that ES has much more editing power as far as tweaking sounds vs even the Tyros, and that there are some excellent preset voices, but you'll need to tweak away to get them to play with the styles. By default, the styles ( Yamaha and otherwise ), will summon the Motif's GM voices, simply because the Motif cannot recognize the bank assignments used by the PSR styles.

It's a lot of work, so I can't say I recommend it, especially for live play. I think your better off using the Tyros / 3k out of the box. The Motif series actually sounds a good bit like them anyway, if you are just measuring lead voice vs lead voice, although I will say I prefer some of the Motif sounds overall. Still, they all have that 'Yamaha' sound, which I like btw.

In the studio / home setup, OMB can be very useful, but to improve sound quality I think you start looking at high quality samples and different ( non Yamaha ) modules. I have used OMB live, but I use it with my laptop and non Yamaha sound modules, with the Motif ES`as my controller and sometimes the souund source for lead voices. Worked fine too btw.

AJ
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AJ

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#167980 - 08/26/05 05:05 AM Re: Using arrangers with sound modules.
to the genesys Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1155
I know this is not the exact question that was asked but I think the answer could be informative and instructive for all.

If we are using a non Yamaha arranger as the style source (korg, Roland, Gem Ketron), and we want to use the Motif as the sound source, could we have the style tracks use the sounds from the Motif?

I know some tweaking would be involved and that would have to be done for each track for each style that we would want to use the Motif sounds. Excluding the time factor, if the styles are tweak that is choosing the desired sounds from the Motif to use with the arranger, could we save the changes as a registration or a style set-up and have those changes recalled at a later date?

Would the same stay true if a new style were to be created from scratch but using the sounds from the Motif?
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#167981 - 08/26/05 07:29 AM Re: Using arrangers with sound modules.
Bluezplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/10/00
Posts: 2195
Loc: Catskill Mountains, NY
I'll answer as best I can. I have the Korg PA80. It can be done, but not as a registration on the PA80. It can't really be done from within the PA80 at all, simply because the registrations will not call up the proper Motif ES banks. eg. Motif's banks are 63 MSB - 0 LSB, 63 MSB - 1 LSB, etc. I'm pretty certain without turning my PA80 on, that most of the non GM banks use 121 as MSB for instruments and 120 for drums. Also, the Motif uses 1-128 as patch and midi data numbers, while most other midi synths including the PA80, use 0-127.

The workaround is to take the style out of the PA80, convert it to midi data, open the data up in a midi sequencer, reassign the desired patches - banks to each part of the style, convert back to Korg style format, and then it will work. I have actually done this, and I have a good bit of experience modifying styles, and doing just one style this way can take me a couple of hours or more.

I just don't have that kind of time, and even if I did, I can't see at all how the time vs potential results would be worth it. If my motivation is to get better results / sounds on a recording, it would be sooo much easier to just record an entire song in the PA80, save it as a midifile, and then open up the file in a sequencer, convert the bank / patch data in to correspond to instruments in the ES and my softsynths the way I'd like it to.


AJ



[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 08-26-2005).]
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#167982 - 08/27/05 11:08 AM Re: Using arrangers with sound modules.
Bluezplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/10/00
Posts: 2195
Loc: Catskill Mountains, NY
I forgot to add....

I do use the Motif and softsynths as sound modules with OMB and the PA80 when I'm hacking around at home. What I do is I set up all of the voices and levels, and then set the filters on the PA80 so that no patch / bank data is sent, and I can also setup the Motif ES or my Vsti host so that it does not receive such data.

I could ( and actually have ) setup and save softsynth configurations in a host like Chainer or FL studio so that the voices are set the way I like for a particular style ( OMB, PA80, Band in A Box etc ). This is an easy enough workaround for quick recall in the studio, and probably even live if I wanted to, but I think the PA80 and a backup of OMB with the SGM180 soundfont are plenty adequate for live play. I'd rather keep the focus more on my real time playing, singing, and hopefully being entertaining, so using an all in one arranger suits me better.

AJ

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 08-27-2005).]
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#167983 - 08/27/05 12:41 PM Re: Using arrangers with sound modules.
to the genesys Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1155
Yes its sounds as if that is too much work to use a module with that set-up.

But it seems as if I should be able to do the task of using the sounds of the sound module while doing all the operations on my Genesys pro with no or very little extra work.
See http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum10/HTML/000372.html
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#167984 - 08/27/05 05:43 PM Re: Using arrangers with sound modules.
Bluezplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/10/00
Posts: 2195
Loc: Catskill Mountains, NY
As long as the Genesys has full standard midi implementation for banks and patches and it can be saved in memories or registrations, then yes, you should be able to do it relatively easily.


As far as I can tell, the PA80 can only call up and store it's native banks ( 120 and 121 MSB along with 0 / 0 for GM ) from within. If I remember correctly, the PSR series also has this limitation. Perhaps you can call up and save non native banks in the song sequencer, but I am not sure if you can do this in the pattern sequencers of the Yamaha or Korg arrangers, which is where you would need to do this in order to permanently modify bank data in a style. Still, even if it worked, this is quite a bit more work than simply changing bank and patch data and saving to a registration, as according to the other post you linked to, can be done in the Genesys.

AJ
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