Hi,

I'd like to hear from Solton X1,
Korg (i series & PA80), General Music (WK series)and Roland (VA7 & EM2000) owners regarding the chord recognition capabilities of these arranger keyboards.

Can you "please" check to see if the above keyboards are able to recognize the following three note 'rootless' style chord voicings in both 'full keyboard' and 'split keyboard' modes:

Notes played as a chord
(lowest,middle,top): Chord:

(F - C - E): Dm7(9)

(F - B - E): G7(13)

(E - A - D): C6(9)

(B - F - A): G7(9)

Please also check if the above keyboards are able to recognize the following "two hand chord voicing" in "full keyboard" mode:

(left hand) (right hand) Desired Chord

(Eb - A - D) (G - C - F): F7(13)

As was confirmed by Paul Smith, Clif Anderson, and myself (on another thread here), both the Yamaha PSR9000 and the Technics KN5000 are able to recognize all the chord voicings I outlined above. Are these the 'only' two arranger keyboard brands/models which include these advanced chord recognitiion features? I sure hope not. It's great that arranger keyboards are geared to both 'one fingered' and intermediate players but it sure would be nice if they could satisfy the needs (as Yamaha & Technics have) of the more advanced professional player as well. This could only help to broaden the arranger keyboard market.

I was fortunate to hear a sample of Roel's music performed on the Solton X1 and was very impressed (both by his fine musicianship as well as the realistic sounds of the X1 itself). I would very much like to find out if the X1 currently (or if in the near future) may include these more advanced chord voicing recognition features in their software. George Kaye, do you have any information from Solton on this?

As a pro jazz style keyboard player/singer, I am searching for an additional arranger keyboard to compliment my Technics KN5000, but an "important" requirement is that the keyboard be capable of recognizing the above type chord voicings.

Donny (Dnj), Roel, Danny UK, sk88user; Uncle Dave, and others, I would particularly appreciate hearing the results of your tests on your respective keyboards. I would love to hear from other arranger keyboard owners as well.

Thanks in advance to all of you for your help.



- Scott

California (SF Bay Area), USA


[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 10-09-2000).]

I noted in some thread that the GEM 1500 recognizes rootless jazz chords. I think this is a console piano, not a portable, but at least it shows GEM knows about these chords. The PA80 introduction has been delayed for a few months, so you will have to wait on that answer.

Scott, where is that store that carries Solton in Northern CA?

Hi Clif,

The store in the SF Bay area (Northern California) that carries Solton keyboards is "Music Unlimited". They have three locations: Dublin, San Leandro, and Monterey, California.

I auditioned the Solton X1 at the San Leandro store over a year ago. I remember being very impressed with the drums (very life like, great fills with lot's of punch) and excellent auto-accompaniment styles. Unfortunately, the acoutic piano (an all important patch to me being that I'm an acoustic piano player) sounded pretty lame. I was also disappointed to discover that the X1's chord recognition feature did not recognize the rootless type chord voicings I desire.

I've heard that since that time, Solton has added a greatly improved acoustic piano patch to the X1. I am now curious to find out if Solton might have added more advanced "rootless" chord recognition features to the X1 as well. This is the reason I am asking Solton X1 owners out there to check if their X1 keyboards recognize the rootless chord voicings I describe in this posting thread.

- Scott

Hi Scott

I was wondering why you were asking, since I knew you probably checked before. I guess the chances are that the store X1 has not been upgraded so another visit will not help.

Usually, the members of this group are so helpful, it is weird that you are getting so little response to your question about rootless chords. Whether or not I would use a feature, I certainly would be interesting in finding out whether or not my keyboard had it. Maybe some owners are embarrassed to post that their keyboards do not recognize rootless chords. Still, it would be nice to get some definite answers.

Hi Clif,

Right you are about my reasoning for asking (yet another time) about the chord recognition capabilities of the Solton X1 and other brands of arranger keyboards.

Unfortunately I didn't get much help from the music store because when I called them recently and asked if their "current" X1 model includes the upgraded ROM with the improved acoustic piano, the guy acted like he didn't know what I was talking about. I'm sure he knew less about Solton keyboard products than most of the Solton owners on this board

Thankfully we have George Kaye (Solton dealer) here and (hopefully) he will be able to provide us with updated info on the Solton X1's current ROM features. If for some reason the X1 still does not include 'rootless' chord recognition, perhaps George might be able to at least pass this request along to Solton so they might implement it in the next generation of Solton keyboard or in a X1 ROM upgrade. George, hope you are you listening

- Scott

Scottyee,

The following is my finding about your chord recognition on Korg I-30, Roland G-1000, and Solton X1 (OS level: 3.0a):
X1 I-30 G-1000
----- ----- ------
F-C-E FMaj7 FMaj7 FMaj7
F-B-E FMaj7b5 Fmaj75b Fmaj7b5
E-A-D Asus E7sus4 Asus
B-F-A B5b7 B7b5 F5b
X1 I-30 G-1000
(Eb - A - D) (G - C - F) F13 EbMaj75b EbMaj75b

Unless Solton has changed chord recognition in their later OS software for X-1, the X-1 does not satisfy your rootless chord requirement. There are only 3 chord types in Solton X-1: Easy1, Easy2 and Fingered. I tried all 3 and none of these recognizes your specified rootless chords.

Good luck in hunting for your next keyboard.

Thanks,

Paul Ip
from Texas

ScottYee, I’ve been reading your many threads on this subject, and one thing has been puzzling me: why does it matter with an arranger keyboard? I know why it would matter with a regular piano or synth, where the notes you hear are exactly the notes you play, no more and no less.

But why does it matter when you’re playing styles? I mean, even if you don’t play the root using the left-hand chord, won’t the style itself play the root once it has detected the chord as the type you desire? Of course it will in the Bass track, but you can turn that off in most keyboards. But what about the Chord, Pad, Phrase, etc. tracks? Won’t the Root be included in them, too, whether you play it or not? And if you turn all of them off, then all you have is the Drums, which rather defeats the whole point of chord recognition and Styles at all!

This interests me greatly, since I’m working with some people on restoring true Just Intonation to music, which has been almost lost from Western music (except for a capella vocals and certain chamber string quartets) for over three centuries now. Modern microprocessor technology makes it feasible for the first time in history. But it would require very accurate chord type detection. For instance, while the 9th would indeed be the same as the Major 2nd, the 11th would not be the same note as a Perfect (Suspended) 4th (nor is it even in the heavily-compromised Even/Equal Tempered Scale we’ve been stuck with all these centuries -- a proper ET 11th would be the IV# note, not the IV note, but in JI it would be very flat of that, almost halfway to the IV). Likewise, the 13th and the Major 7th are not equals (in fact, the 13th is closer to the minor 6th!). Indeed, the Dominant 7th and Minor 7th are two different notes (and neither matches the Melodic Minor 7th), as are the Major 6th and Diminished 7th, or the Augmented 5th and Minor 6th (and 13th, for that matter), or the Diminished 5th and the 11th and the Tritone. Getting a computer to recognize all of these off of a standard 12-note-per-octave keyboard, in real time, is going to be tricky.

Hi COMALite J,

I think you may have misunderstood me. I 'do' want to hear "exactly" what I'm playing live (nothing more, nothing less): acoustic piano sound playing a specific (rootless) chord voicing style. I also 'do' in fact want to hear the auto accompaniment (upright bass) play a bass line that "does" include the root of the chord. My point is that if I (as the piano player) include playing the root of the chord in my chord voicing, that this would be in effect "duplicating" the root already played by the auto-accompaniment bass player and is considered a major "faux pas" when playing in the jazz idiom.

On the subject of "Just Intonation": This is certainly a fasinating subject, especially with the advent of synthesizer technology which creates the ability to differentiate the subtle nuances between a sus4 and 11th as well as the other chord extension notes you outlined. It would be intrigueing to hear Western music performed with "Just Intonation" after all the years of hearing music performed on our (compromised?) tempered 12 tone scale (I've always wondered what lay between the cracks of the piano keys (hahaha).



- Scott

California (SF Bay Area), USA


[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 10-08-2000).]

Hi COMALite J and Scott

In case Scott's answer was not clear, arranger keyboards differ in how they respond to different fingers of the same basic chord. For example, if I play c-e-g, most keyboads will recognize a C chord and play the style with the c as the base note. If I play e-g-c, this will also be recognized as a C chord. However, in some cases, the sound will be the same as if I had played c-e-g, while in other cases, the inversion will sound with e as the bass note. This, by the way, is the difference between the "fingered 1" and the "fingered 2" modes on my PSR8000. In the latter case, in a sense, the keyboard treats C and C/E as two different chords. The issue is whether different forms or inversions of a chord sound differently when interpreted by the arranger.

What Scott wants is an arranger that recognizes the chord corresponding to his fingerings, but that also plays the chord using the lowest note he plays as its lowest note. He does not want the arranger to add the missing base note. Thus, if he plays f-c-e for Dm7(9), he does not want a "d" added as the bass note. I hope this is both clear and reasonably correct.

To: Paul Ip,

Thanks so much for taking the time to perform 'chord recognition' tests on the Solton X1, Korg i30, and Roland G-1000 keyboards.

It seems like the major keyboard manufacters decided to take radically different approaches to arranger 'chord recognition/interpretation'. Yamaha and Technics in one camp and Solton, Korg, and Roland in the other.

Though "theoretically" the chords voicings recognized by Solton, Korg & Roland may be more or less correct, these voicings are not typically associated with the chords that Solton, Korg & Roland assigns them. I asked other pro jazz keyboard players and they concur. They associate the chord interpretations more in line with how Yamaha & Technics interpretes the voicings.

The 3rd of the chord is all important in determining the mood (major/minor/sus) of the chord. Interesting that Solton, Korg, and Roland chose to interprete the (F-C-E)chord voicing as 'major' even though the 3rd of the chord is not specified (played). How is the arranger to know if you might have meant Fm(+7) or Fsus(+7) instead of FMaj7 if you don't actually include playing the note A (3rd), Ab (minor 3rd), or Bb (4th)? As far as I'm concerned, playing (F-C-E) is not considered a FMaj7 chord. On the other hand playing F-C-E is a well accepted chord voicing (rootless in the tradition of Bill Evans) for playing Dm7(9)in the jazz idiom.

If indeed playing (F-C-E) is an (accepted?) voicing for FMaj7, I am really curious to find out what specific genre of music this type of chord interpretation is accepted in.

Thanks again Paul. It sounds like so far only the Yamaha PSR9000 & Technics will satisfy my chord recognition needs. I"m still waiting on chord recognition results on the GEM WK8 and Roland VA7.

- Scott


[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 10-09-2000).]

scott,
Not being a keyboard player, but a store owner who loves arranger keyboards because of their ease of use in making me sound good, I possed your question to a good friend of mine who bought an X1 and also had a PSR8000 before the X1. He informed me exactly as Paul Ip has informed you that the X1 does not recognize the chords you asked about. Yet I think it is very strange becasue Andy, the musician I called plays mostly big Jazz type chords and loves the way the X1 recognizes what he plays.
I also would like to clarify that the new piano sound you mention is from the super solo 8 disk set of sounds which solton sells but does not offer as a free set or as an upgrade to their stock piano. Unless your store moderates the solton club, my feeling is that they don't know what these sound disks are all about. If Solton's distributor in New York didn't tell them about these being such an improvement, they would have no way of knowing they should load these in. Also, it doesn't matter how old their keyboard is in the store as long as they keep updating operating systems as they come out. We just loaded 3.2A last week. Paul Ip, if your still using 3.0A you should be using the new operating system. Besides adding new features it also makes the keyboard work more ifficiently. Also, please check the chord recognition using 3.2A. Maybe it fixes it. I read somewhere from AJ of the Solton Club that there was one more chord recognition in the fingered mode. I think he said fingered 2.
George Kaye

"Maybe it fixes it. I read somewhere from AJ of the Solton Club that there was one more chord recognition in the fingered mode. I think he said fingered 2."
George Kaye

Maybe Solton has been reading Scott's posts.
Clif

One thing to Solton's credit, they do respond to user input and if they are of merit they include them in upgrades wherever possible. I suppose it's because their arranger keyboard division is very small compared to giants like Yamaha and Roland.
Or maybe they have somebody working there that actually plays an X1? . . . Naw, if they did they would put the buttons in the right place!
Don

Hi George,

Thanks for the valuable info regarding the latest Solton X1 OS (version 3.2A). As I mentioned earlier, I really do love many of the sounds (especially rhythm section) & styles of the X1 so I'm am very anxious to find out if version 3.2A adds 'rootless' chord voicing recognition. Hope someone here that has installed OS 3.2A can report back on this.

BTW, can you explain the differences between Easy1, Easy2, Fingered 1, and Fingered 2 Solton X1 modes? Paul Ip's posting gave me the impression that there is only 'one' fingered mode on the X1. Is Solton's "fingered 2" mode similar to Yamaha's "full keyboard" or Technics "Pianist" mode?

In regards to your musican friend Andy who plays "big Jazz type chords" and loves the way the X1 recognizes what he plays. I assume he is playing in 'full keyboard' mode where all the notes/chords he plays are heard, right? I am sure that the X1 provides him with a great sounding backup even if he must play "stock chord voicings"(including the root) to trigger the auto-accompaniment to play the correct harmonies. The problem with this limitation (especially in ballad type tunes), is that you as a keyboard player are not allowed to play more exotic chord voicings and extensions (9th,11th, 13th) and alterations (b9,#11,b13 etc) because this would screw up the auto-accompaniment's recognition of the chord. I am just hoping that future generations of arranger keyboards will either add more chord recognition possibilities to their chord recognition palette, or better yet, allow the user to program and define their own "custom" chord recognition table. I did speak with a Technics R&D rep and he expressed great interest in the custom 'user defined' chord recognition idea so I'm hoping that this is something that may be implemented in the next generation of arranger keyboard. Perhaps you might tickle Solton with this idea as well.

George, thanks again for keeping us all posted on the latest arranger keyboard product developments and release dates as well as providing us with current arranger keyboard sales trends. I always find your postings informative.

- Scott

Hi Scott
I'm not a jazz pianist, but out of interest I tried your 5 examples on the KN6000. In pianist mode they were all recognized as per your posting. In fingered mode none were recognized however I believe that is the same on the 5000.
By the way I am reliably informed that since rectification of the original chord recognition problem on the 6000 there has been further fine tuning of the chord recognition on later software upgrades, so if you get the chance to try the 6000 again make sure it's upgraded to the latest version, 6.0.
Regards
Peter

Hey there Peter,

How have you been?

How's it going "down under"? Did you make it to Sydney for the Olympics? Wish I could have been there.

Thanks for the valuable update regarding the KN6000. I will have to check out a KN6000 with the latest version 6.0 ROM. I had played a KN6000 which contained an earlier ROM version and it 'did not' recognize some of the rootless chords I had outlined. I am "GLAD" that Technics has finally fixed this with ROM version 6.0.

Peter, how about the other known glitches on the KN6000 (delayed chord recognition etc), have they been corrected as well?

Regards,

- Scott

California (SF Bay Area), USA

Hi again Scott,
The olympics were pretty exciting for all us "Sydneysiders". I live right in the middle of town so I was surrounded by it all!
There was lots of friendly rivalry between the Americans and the Aussies throughout the games. I guess the Americans set the standard and the other athletes all strive to outdo them.
As to the kn6000, in my view the chord recognition is now the same as(as good as) on the 5000 and generally there are no other outstanding bugs of any significance. I still haven't heard the new grand piano on the expansion board but I'm looking forward to that as soon as we get the board in Australia. A few days back you mentioned the possibility of a kn7000 early next year. I wonder if that will be nothing more than a 6000 with the expansion board as standard.
Peter.

Hey Peter,

How exciting it must be to live in Sydney. I have a couple of friends here from Sydney that say San Francisco is in many ways similar to your beautiful city. Sister cities?

Wow, so many exciting new arranger keyboards coming out "just on the horizon" . . . .

Yamaha PSR9000-Pro
Technics KN6000 with piano expansion board
Technics KN7000?
Korg PA80
GEM WK8-SE

I'm getting dizzy trying to figure out which one to get for my next arranger board. If I could afford it, I'd get them all but being a working musician. . . . I can only afford one . . . at least for now.

I'm beginning to think that the possibility of a KN7000 being released in January 2001 might be 'just speculative' rumour, especially in light of the recent release of the KN6000 expansion board. I must admit though, that it does seem pretty odd that a Technics sales guy would try to convince me to hang on to my KN5000 and wait for the KN7000 (missing a great sales opportunity for him to sell me an 'in stock' KN6000). Perhaps he was having a great month and already exceeded his sales quota (yeah, right!), who knows?

I certainly am looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the new KN6000 expansion board and its' new "acoustic grand piano sample" when it arrives in Australia.

Regards,

- Scott

California (SF Bay Area), USA

Hello,

Sorry for the delay. I spent an hour experimenting and here is my result:


On Sk880/Sk760/Wk8/WK6,

the following are true:

F-C-E F Maj7
D-F-C-E D min9
F-C-D-E D min9/F
-----
F-B-E F Maj7-b5 (flatted fifth)
F-G-B-E G13/F
---------
E-A-D E7_sus4
C-D-G-A C 6-9
E-G-A-C-D C 6-9/E
------
B-F-A F_b5
B-F-G-A G9/B
------
(Eb-A-D)(G-C-F): F13/Eb
but the two hands has to be on consecutive octaves.
--------

Hi,

The Os3.2a with the option Chord "finger2" mode still can't recognize the rootless chord! So, hopefully the next OS will have it fixed.