I am curious to hear the opinion of all the pros and veterans here:

Listening to Peter Baartman's demo on T2 I would have to say yes, he is a good player, and yes the T2 has an impressive sound (at least the guitar in my opinion).

Now- My question is: Since the keyboard technology is getting better and better these days, would it jeopardize our performance in a sense that the audience would think "Wow, what kind of keyboard that can make that kind of sound?" instead of "Wow he/she is a good performer"?

Last time I performed was with KN800 so the technology was far from what we have now- What people heard was pure playing technique.

I am sure the Pros here can give their .02 cents having been in the music industry for many years you've heard many comments either about your keyboard or your performance.

Thought/Comments?

I'm not so sure that the general audience is cognisant of the technology. I think they see a keyboard and a player, and if the keyboard is upgraded I would have doubts whether they would attribute any increased enjoyment to coming from the machine.
But like everything to do with sounds, it is an individual perception.
Better add - I'm not a "Pro".
Regards
Keith

Yep, gotta agree with you there, KeithB.

The biggest hurdle which still seems to haunt arrangers is that people go to the mall on a Saturday and hear the main riff of In The Mood being hacked out by some salesperson (and I'm not alluding to the serious sales reps./dealers/musicians who are well-known and respected on this board who can knock the spots off the type of store and sales personnel I'm talking about).

The general impression thus left in the mind of the casual passer-by is that your average chimpanzee can churn out a tune, no skill required.

Of course, there's no substitute for talent/skill on any given instrument, but I think arranger players have the above-mentioned hurdle in front of them all the time.

Just my 2 cents.....
I am a Pro keyboardist (for the last 38 years), I have play from the non-automatic Hammond B-3s, X-66, Electones D2B, E10R, FX1, Hs6, EL90, Ketron X1HD, SD1, to my latest PSR3000 and soon to became a T2 and the Korg PA60to became a PA1X, also I work as keyboard specialist at a music store in Phoenix Az, I have hear people at the store make the T2 & PA1X sound bad......non intentionally, so, I agree, with KeithB and renig....
The player has not just play, but know how to use the keyboard features into an arrangement, so it sounds like a CD but in real time.

If you've got a good right hand when the arranger plays styles, there are no problems. Or if you have a great voice to sing over the styles, good as well. But, if all you do is play styles without either a right hand or a proper voice in tune, then a DJ is the thing for you unless you begin taking lessons.

not really sure if his is answering the question as i really dont think it matters what the audience think. Just ask yourself why so many people here are considering buying the T2. or why they bought he T1 ? Wasnt it because they heard these amazing demos by great demonstrators and thought the key board would enhance their sound too ? But the truth is that if Petter Baartmen and his colleagues were to demo the korg i3 or the roland em2000 or the yammy psr1000 they could convince us to by those older keyboards all over again !! The point i am making is that subconsciously we all believe that it is the keyboard that is making them sound so good and hat if we purchase hat keyboard we will sound better. Thr truth is that it is and always will be the player that makes the great music.But it is inevitable that if a great player plays an instrument then we the listeners will place disproportionately relevance to the instrument instead of its player. Thats exactly why the big manufacturers get great demonstrators to demonstrate their instruments. Its basic psychology. We are not immune to it so it as musicians so why should our audience be ?

not really sure if his is answering the question as i really dont think it matters what the audience think. Just ask yourself why so many people here are considering buying the T2. or why they bought the T1 ? Wasnt it because they heard these amazing demos by great demonstrators and thought the key board would enhance their sound too ? But the truth is that if Petter Baartmen and his colleagues were to demo the korg i3 or the roland em2000 or the yammy psr1000 they could convince us to by those older keyboards all over again !! The point i am making is that subconsciously we all believe that it is the keyboard that is making them sound so good and that if we purchase that keyboard we will sound better. The truth is that it is and always will be the player that makes the great music.But it is inevitable that if a great player plays an instrument then we the listeners will place disproportionately relevance to the instrument instead of its player. Thats exactly why the big manufacturers get great demonstrators to demonstrate their instruments. Its basic psychology. We are not immune to it as musicians so why should our audience be ?

I will relate a personal anecdote.
Many years ago I was in a music shop where a friend of mine worked and he was demoing a keyboard for a customer. I noticed that while he played he kept his face and his body dead still, without showing any emotions, like he was thinking of something else, so (when the client walked away) I asked him: "Why is it that you never show emotions while you play? Why dont't you ever close your eyes or move your head or your body?"
His reply: "Because the customer has to think that what I am doing is easy and he will be able to do the same things at home, once he buys the keyboard".

Kudos to your friend, Andrea.

Being strictly a non-pro player (not that I could be a pro even if I tried) I want to say that a better keyboard will definitely make ME sound better, and I believe will make a good player sound EVEN better/believable.

Technique is one thing, but to convince the audience that something serious is going on, you have to have the sounds as well. When you play a sax, it has to sound like a sax, not like a drunk mosquito, or people will say it sucks. (Here's a rhyme for you). Of course sounds alone will not make a fingerless/brainless man play, but at least can help him save the day (another rhyme).

I realised that, after playing with Hypercanvas and HQ Orchestra for a while. Just hearing the same old styles of my keyboard through the Hypercanvas sound engine, I was blown off, it made me/encouraged me to actually play better, because I could milk more expression out of the Hypercanvas sounds, and sound more like "the record". I even uploaded a song for Synthzoners to hear, I was that happy. Same with the HQ Orchestra Concert piano. I never realised I could sound like that. Experienced musicians would instantly recognise an amateur with no left hand, but I could convince my friends (the actual crowd).

Ok, Peter Baartmans is a good player but if he plays a toy instrument, people will recognise, (in their subconcious at least) that a good player is playing a toy instrument.

All said and done, I believe customers will not give a damn, if you can just make them happy. In the end they won't be able to remember if it was the Roland XP-80 piano, or the P-60, or the Tyros, they will remember that the "guy playing the keyboard" offered them a good time. But I also believe that it has to be a decent arranger of a decent standard, Korg i3 and upwards, maybe a Casio WK, but not a Casio lighted keyboard.
Theodore

There is always a musician in the audience, and if he or she sees that all you do is left hand and sing out of tune, well then chances are you won't get hired again because he/she'll let the party now. Even if you tell a good joke.
Great rhymes Theodore!

Player --- Performer, big difference. Let?s give credit to our audience, I was being interviewed to play a condo party and the question asked was. "Do you have the tapes and stuff also". And he was a senior.
Yes, they are excepting new technology. And yes they do enjoy the new keyboards, if used properly ---
If you do a good job, they will give you credit for your performance, but not to your ability to play your instrument.
Years back I remember them saying, "Boy, you can really make that guitar really sound good", technology is changing that, the people are aware of that.
Look at the movies, was the picture good because of the actor, or was it good because of the effects.
I still very much enjoy a good actor or a good player.

IMHO, John C.




[This message has been edited by bruno123 (edited 12-21-2005).]

Great players, be they pianists' or synthesists', will always have a certain disdain for "arranger" keyboards and those who use them in a professional venue. It's similar to the attitude that most musicians have about disk jockeys. As keyboardists', who among us is not more thrilled by a "killer" acoustic piano performance than an "arranger" performance....why? because we KNOW the guy can play, simple as that.

chas

Is everyone of us looking into this too deeply. At the end of the evening if everybody feels they have had a good nights entertainment....which is the reason they attended in the first place.... then the goal has been achieved regardless of the keyboard played. The keyboard player and his reaction with the audience makes the performance.

Dirkjan Ranzijn perform showing full emotion with each piece he plays and this does transfer to the listeners enjoyment.

if you go to any professional concert or music performance like Madona or Justin timberlake or Jlo mariah carey, just listen to the musicians!Can you tell whether they are playing all the instruments live or triggering off arpegiators with their feet or sequenced parts that they are playing live to etc ? I bet you cant ! Neither can the audience!

But they all assume that there must be a certain level of skill employed to make the great sounds that they are hearing.

I agree with Graham "Is everyone of us looking into this too deeply. At the end of the evening if everybody feels they have had a good nights entertainment....which is the reason they attended in the first place.... then the goal has been achieved regardless of the keyboard played. The keyboard player and his reaction with the audience makes the performance.

Here's my 2 cents. I am a pianist, and I am considered a good one. However, in the real world, if I didn't play OMB jobs, I'd make a lot less money. Playing the piano is nice and I love to do it, but to put on a show or play for dancing, an arranger can't be beat. For me it's a whole package, I sing, play a mean right hand, and use great chords and I do it in an entertaining style. Plain and simple, the arranger is still an instrument, or a tool which you use in your performance.

Check out my new solo piano CD. http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/joeayala

Salud,

Joe

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Songman55
Joe Ayala

I play professionally. My solution to settle any questions about what or how I play is simple: I turn off the accompaniment and just play piano every few songs or so. Naked piano is the ultimate statement regarding keyboard playing ability.

Also, I walk around to every table and greet everyone individually on my breaks, usually handing out song sheets so the customers can make requests (without driving me nuts by asking for things I don't know). Most people don't care at all how I make the music but some do and this one-on-one time is when I answer any questions about my keyboard or the technology I use.

This is a good topic, we've talked about this one quite a bit. I wonder if the arranger stereotype will ever fade.

However, Yamaha for example doesn't really help to improve that image in my opinion. Take the PSR-3000 for example. This is no beginner's arranger keyboard. It has too many functions and abilities that put it in the pro department, but for some odd reason Yamaha added the "Performance Assistance" feature to the PSR-3000. I think this feature should have been left off the PSR-3000. It in my opinion is a very TOY like feature and only gives a negative image to the upper end arrangers and those who own them and perform with them daily.

Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 12-21-2005).]

Interesting! A similar situation exists in the graphic arts field, for some of the same reasons.

Some people proficient in Mac operation (Quark Express, etc.) know the mechanics of the machine, but lack the asthetic touch which marks a great conceptual artist.

Likewise, some operators of electronic musical equipment of all kinds know the equipment, but are sometimes short on raw musical talent.


Then, sadly, there is the age factor. I know several top designers who were making 6 figure incomes, say, 12 years ago, who can't find any kind of graphics job today, because they simply are intimidated by the technology, and never learned it. Likewise, superb musicians who never changed with the times are starving.

It takes a balance to be successful. It is true that animation equipment, arrangers,
digital editing packages, etc. make it possible for more people to participate in certain fields.


The trick is to do your craft. Use technology to produce, but not as a crutch or cover-up for a lack of ability.


And, always keep learning...both the technology and the art/craft.

Russ

Sorry, double post (Damn technology)!


Russ

[This message has been edited by captain Russ (edited 12-21-2005).]

Russ wrote:
"The trick is to do your craft. Use technology to produce, but not as a crutch or cover-up for a lack of ability."

You summed it up, Russ!

I wonder if this type of discussion went on at the time the piano was introduced.
The truth is music and instruments are evolving all the time.
Who knows what musicians or others will be playing in fifty years time.
I bet this type of discussion will be going on then to.
There was an Australian composer I can't recall his name who spent his lifetime trying to find a way of playin his music without an orchestra because he considered the musisians got in the way of his music.
He would be in his element now.

Cousin Ken

I'm probably an odd duck.

I know a guy who plays piano as good anyone I know. A professional entertainer. This guy smokes. My gosh, can he beat out the boogie. Awesome. But... after one or two sets, I've had enough.

If he were playing an arranger, I likely wouldn't tire of it. I don't know that, I've never heard him play an arranger. In fact, I never will, because he never will. But I'd be less apt to tire of it.

Secondly... if I played an arranger and could play really well, I would definitely do what Esh said, play piano-only tunes several times a night.

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Bill
Yamaha PSR2000

KN_Fan,
IMO, it depends on who the audience is, what types of audiences are attracted to the musical path that you have chosen to take.

If you're doing a traditional concert, you will need to be emphasizing your musicianship, your virtuosity, your chops, so you can probably leave the arranger at home and bring the Steinway.

If you're doing a club or dinnerhouse, more variables come into play ... a balance of musicianship, entertainment, mix of styles and rhythm.
Bring the arranger -OR- bring the Steinway and the bass player, and the drummer, and the guitar ... and the... and the....

If the event is a dance, bring the arranger and all of its boltons because you will need all of the flexibility the arranger provides for all rhythms, styles, instrument sounds, etc, otherwise they will probably be hiring a dj next year.

If one ever saw P. Baartman's Vivaldi demo on the Tyros 1 .......

Great playing is great playing regardless of the gear.
Terry

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jam on,
Terry
http://www.musicchops.com/forums/

Sadly, that's not the case when it comes to bad, outdated instruments. I know of one player who is using a keyboard that sounds horrible, yet this guy on an acoustic piano sounds great. His stage digital piano is painful to listen to and IMHO he's hurting his reputation by playing a poor choice in instruments (ironically, he keeps a prized Kurzweil at home to practice on and doesn't want to beat it up by using it on stage). Another friend of mine is stuck in the 80's and is carrying four heavy and outdated keyboards in Anvil flight cases that make his van's rear shocks sag under the weight; and to top it off, he has a heart condition and very often doesn't make his gigs because he's in and out of the hospital so much. More than once this year he had to leave the gig in an ambulance. His bandmates and the club that hires him asked me to try talking him into carrying less gear since he could gig with just two of his boards - he stubbornly refused. I don't expect him to survive '06.

I like Russ' insight, which is also a warning: pro keyboardists have to keep up with technology to remain competitive and employable.