So far, I've played 3 Fridays at this new place of mine. Firt 2 nights netted $26 and $34 dollars in "gifts"(tips) respectively. The 3rd night = ZERO. The difference???
I played the PA80 on top of the piano this week. I've said it before - people don't tip keyboard players as well as they do piano players. I thought I'd bring the PA so I could walk some bass lines and have a drum beat handy, but NO MORE !

If they want to see me pound the keys...then I'll gladly oblige. Forget the diversity. Forget the harmonizer. Forget Domani....
From now on, on Fridays.....I'm a piano player with a laptop. Period. It costs me too much $$$$$ to play the Korg.

Anyone else see this trend? I've noticed it for years, and years. Put up a lousy spinet, and you'll make money. Take a Tyros/9kpro/Genesis rack...... you become a "button pusher" to the dining mentality.
Go figure.

I definitely agree Dave, the trend is to tip more for Piano players (logically this doesnt make sense, however in practice, i think people misconcieve piano playing to be more difficult due to the lack of any electronic "help") I generally net 50 to 60% more thru tips at Piano gigs than Keyboard ones, for this reason, I reserve much of my keyboard playing for personal use or for laying down tracks

Wow, that is really hard to believe. Give them more for the dollar and you get less? Hmmm, whats the deal here. You suppose its just a coincedence? Is it worth trying again? And then, I suppose it boils down to what do they want and which way do you enjoy playing the music the most. I'd think you would enjoy playing more with the PA80, and if thats the case I would really think that your sincere energy would come across and make a big impact on the audience.....you'd think wouldn't you??

Just wondering...was the audience in a position to see your hands? I would bet a cookie that if you had a camcorder pointed at your hands with a TV monitor so the majority of the crowd could see what you're doing I bet you a cookie your tips go up higher than just the piano. Even if you didn't sing.

Who knows??

Scott Langholff

As to UD's observation:

That's why I think it's very important to have an Arranger Keyboard that also has excellent Piano samples. The Grand Piano Voice is THEE most important Voice on a Keyboard IMO and to have a "superb" Grand Piano Voice is the ticket. The more your Keyboard sounds like a Steinway D I feel the more the audience will be entralled and willing to tip plus the more the Patron will be willing to shell out for services rendered. People appreciate a good sounding instrument more than some realize. And the Grand Piano is the instrument of choice and preference in a casual social atmosphere and gathering with perhaps the Guitar and Elec. Piano coming in second and third. When I think of a Piano I think of an instrument that is at the heart and substance of Music in general. But I also feel that different crowds want different type music and sounds. Sure, Latin music thrives on the Brite and Octave Pianos but what would Latin music be without Percussion instruments, ie., "Drums", Congas, Bells, a good rhythm section like a Brass Section, Trumpet, Bass, etc. So there is definitely a place for using our Arrangers to their full capability and still getting paid for it especially when the crowd and need calls for it. But I agree with UD, do what works regardless of what you and I feel we HAVE to or WANT to do to try and please a crowd. As the saying goes, the customer is ALWAYS right, right?

Best regards,
Mike

[This message has been edited by Idatrod (edited 08-16-2003).]

i had the same thing happen to me. first
i use a spinet piano, roland tr505 drum
machine, and a set of bass pedals. everything
went great. then i added a synth on top to layer strings and a computer to add midi
sequences and it changed the perpective
of the crowd and a drop in tips. now i use multiple keyboards and no tips. i thinking about, dumping everything and going back to the basics. at least i'll keep my fingers in shape instead of using arrangers... i'll
be doing the work. hmmmmm maybe that's how
the crowd see it. who knows, just do what makes you happy and the rest will follow.

Following up on several of the topics here: as most here know I continue to play an all-instrumental gig using the 9000 Pro w/PLG150-PF grand piano expansion card and I do very well w/tips, album sales and general response. The 9000 Pro is large enough (76 keys) for the audience to assume it's a digital piano and I don't have to pile-on extra keyboards or use a laptop for backing/accompaniment. Very easy and confortable to gig this way. The only drawback is because I don't drown out conversations I'm sometimes assumed to be "background music"... some have even sarcastically said I do "live elevator music". But the piano is my main melodic instrument, people dance, and overall I get applause and pretty much the same respect a pianist would. My biggest compaint lately, because of the summer tourism season and my main gig is in a so-called family restaraunt, is that some parents send their unescorted and uncontrollable kids up to take up the dance floor (especially in those damn wooden clogs) which chases off the adults and leaves me to "babysit". I politely take a break when this happens with the management's full blessings.

I did succumb to temptation and tried one of those over-advertised X-10 "spy cameras" you see in pop-up web ads. It works very well - sends a clear wireless video signal to a small receiver that you can plug into any TV, and the signal even goes through walls. I set it up on a small shelf and focused it on my hands while I played and sent the signal to a TV in the lounge (you can see and hear me from the lounge but I actually play in the dining room). This impressed noone - the manager thought it was a neat gimmick for about two weeks but then the TV went back to it's normal routine of showing whatever ballgame was handy due to demand. What's that line about you can take horticulture but that doesn't mean she'll like it?

Bottom line.....get paid what your worth in the first place...
the tips are just gravy if any.

There is just no way of figuring out the audience. Playing two hours of dinner music at a dinner theater, I got $42 one night and zero the next night. Same music, different crowd.
Walt

Last week I was in Houston on business. In the lounge at my hotel they had live music for two nights. They had a grand piano with amplification, and the performer had a Roland RS-7 on top of it. He had the backing tracks playing from the minidisks, piping it all through the Roland KC500 amp.

I must say, the guy was exceptional - he had both the keyboard technique (miles beyond mine), and the ability to while playing with one hand, use the other one to reach over to the keyboard and press buttons which he could not see quite well, and keep adjusting the volume knobs on the amplifier behind him.

He was very friendly, and after we got to talking, he invited me to play a bit. Of course, I did not know his backing tracks, so I played straight piano. Well, several people came over to compliment me (no tips, but I don't think he got much tips either). In any case, I think that people enjoy the music which resonates with them, and not the one played on a particular instrument. In any case, this was a very gratifying experience for me.

Basically, what this gentleman does is no different from karaoke (playing along to a minidisk, or to a laptop sequences, as some of us do), but his musicianship is what sets him apart from a drunk making a fool of himself in front of a karaoke screen.

Regards,
Alex

Whats wrong with playing Midi files? I know a guy that records all his own midi file songs on a Synth and Arranger KB recording track by track only in his studio....then just Sings against his own Song Tracks at some of the best restaurants in the area making some nice money I might add...
But cannot play KB and Sing on stage at the same time....nothing wrong with that it's
"ALL ENTERTAINMENT" no matter how you do it!

Maybe your overlooking the obvious. You can put a huge goblet on the piano (for tips, with money already in the goblet, so they get the hint). When they walk over to the piano and drop money in the goblet, others see them do this. You can't put a goblet on a keyboard.
Star

Nothing's wrong with utilizing midi files for 'karaoke style' entertainment venues. Though I've used pre recorded backing sequences in the past, I no longer utilize them for my shows. I find playing (and/or singing) along with pre-sequenced backing tracks often leads to a rather repeatedly predictable sounding performance.

I prefer having the 'onstage' artistic license to spontaneously (on the fly) change the way my songs progress (throwing in chord substitutions, adding an extra chorus, etc). Only playing in 'arranger mode' will allow this. A big part of the creative energy that happens on stage with 100% live musicians is the spontaneous musical interplay between band members. As solo musician-entertainers without other musicians to play off of, the ability to optionally perform a song differently (on the fly) each time, becomes of even greater importance, helping to ensure that your performance sounds FRESH night after night.

Scott

Scott,
No disrespect, but arranger gerenric patterns will never sound "fresh" night after night - no matter how you alter the format or chords. The overall package will always be a canned imitation of what you really want to hear. I find that the exact drum beat from a recognizable song will induce more dance support than any "creative" liscence we may force on our crowds.

I originally got into arrangers because of the built in drum machine...never even using the patters. When the quality level was raised to something I actually liked - I started using the styles. I even thought as you do, that the "originality and spontinaety" was key to a great performance.

Sadly, in todays saturated and thinning market - the masses respond to familiarity rather than creativity. In a dance situation - the sequences always give me a better response than canned backgrounds.

In a background situation, or a dining room....it's another ball game. My refernces here are directed to dancefloors.

It's a shame, but I doubt that you'll be able to do this for a living when you hit my age. I think it will be long gone by then. I hope I make it to retirement without killing some drunken "K" singer trying to grab my mic.

I'm still in love with my job, but it gets harder every year. I hate the direction it's headed.

Donny,

nothing wrong with singing to a pre-recorded back-up. I am merely recognizing the fact that in Japanese form of entertainment is called "Karaoke". This "art form" has been much derided by many seasoned pros in this forum, all the while many of them engage in the same practice themselves.

As a live performer, I have never used sequences in my shows. On the other hand, some may argue that since I play mostly with the arranger turned on, I am not that far removed from the Karaoke myself. Well, I think there is some difference, but let's leave this for another post.

I think that it is fine to make money entertaining people with whatever talens G=d has given us. The guy in Houston, who I was writing about in my previous post, calls himself a pianist. Indeed, he is a pianist, being able to showcase his talent and technique despite the pre-recorded accompaniment tracks. It is fine with me if one has to sing to a pre-recorded track, as long as he calls himself a singer or a Karaoke artist. I even have no problem if the entertainer plays everything pre-recorded, and calls themselves a DJ. Incidentally, in my area the DJ charges about three times as much as I do.

What I don't like is when one pretends to be playing while in actuality spinning pre-recorded tracks in the sequencer or an audio player. In my book that is cheating, and that is wrong.

Uncle Dave, a thought on your original post: could be that there was no tips the third night because they've had enough music?

Regards,
Alex

Alex: I disagree with the way you are using "pre-recorded" as a blanket term. I agree that performers who buy karaoke music are certainly karaoke performers, and there isn't much difference with performers who buy midi files for backing either. But it's possible to create your own arrangements and song executions from start to finish, with backing instruments hand-sequenced and mixed to work in conjunction with the live melodic content. The result is a completely unique musical concept, which is different IMHO from someone just performing the missing parts of a store-bought file or tape. When performers go the extra mile to present their personal interpretation of a song, they deserve a little more credit than karaoke singers do.

I have to dissagree with you Alex,Then in a way all arranger KB players are Cheaters, because they don't play without some kind of auto rythym/styles etc ? I hope I dont get caught by the cheater police! In this day and age there are so many ways to make music and entertain its not funny. How you do it I odn't care but whatever you do put your heart into it and do the best that you can to make your audience enjoy the performance, most dont know cheating from reality. But I'll tell ya this ....you put your heart and soul in your music and baby I'll put some bucks in your tip cup for sure!!

Jim,

I agree that a person creating their own sequences deserves more credit than someone who buys pre-recorded backing tracks. I have no problem with someone benefitting (financially or otherwise) from playing back their own sequences. This is as fair as the case when a musician makes money selling his own CDs.

But I think the originality is only part of the story. I felt cheated, as I hope many others in this forum did, when Milli Vanilli turned out to be lip-syncing, even though their songs sounded good and were original. I agree with Scott, that a true live performer is able to connect his music with the mood of the audience, and change spontaneously to adjust to the situation in the room. I think this is missing from the pre-recorded music, but can be accomplished with the arranger keyboard.

I am not saying that playing back one's own mysic is wrong - it is not. But lip-syncing (or play-syncing) in my book constitutes cheating of the audience.

I think that it is possible to demonstrate ample showmanship and talent, even while utilizing the pre-recorded backup tracks. But if you read this thread over, you come across people lamenting about being replaced by the Karaoke performers, while they themselves do the same thing.

Donny, I do not pretend to be cheater police. I recognize that using the arranger accompaniments constitutes relying on help from electronics, although we could argue about the degree of this reliance. I am happy that so many talented members on this forum are making a living utilizing their gifts. I also agree that when you pour your soul into your music, the audience can usually feel it. Whichever way you can do it is fine with me.

But you must agree that lip-syncing is fraud. In the same vain, when one pretends to play while a midi or MP3 is all that is really playing, this is the same thing (as opposed to playing something audible while using a midi or MP3 file as a backing track).

To make a long story short, IMHO in a live show it is perfectly acceptable to use MIDIs or MP3s (or other audio files) when you are either playing something over top of them, or singing (while not pretending to play), or when you go on a break. Another acceptable use (in my book) is if you play it after giving full credit to the author (even to yourself).

Regards,
Alex

Uncle Dave. No disrespect taken. I'll agree that generic patterns are just that. But, in spite of this, though the auto accompaniment rhythm section certainly doesn't sound as good as the real live thing, the overall effect can still sound impressive when you supply plenty of live creative keyboard playing, including adding fresh harmonic textures (chord substitutions), interesting instrumental fills, as well as drum fills thrown in at just the right places thru a song. Short of this, to keep a song sounding fresh, I'll also occasionally select (rotate) another style for a particular song. The key thing when utilizing auto accompaniment is not to let it dominate or compete with your live playing & singing. I feel that this approach helps to keep my material sounding "fresh' night after night.



When providing music specifically intended for 'dance club' situations, I'll agree with you. My performance niche though is more as a lounge piano-singer style entertainer, so my gigs aren't specifically 'dance floor' oriented, but more a intimate lounge-concert setting, where the audience specifically comes to hear me perform. Even so, if space permits, I typically encourage dancing, and they more often than not, fill the dance area. As far as getting the correct danceable drum beats to a specific recognizable popular song, I find there are plenty of song specific auto-accompaniment styles available to fill the bill for these without having to rely on pre-sequenced midi tracks. The advantage of performing in arranger mode, even with dancefloor oriented songs, is that you gain the ability to add an extra chorus, modulate, etc, whereas with a midi file you're locked into strictly following the pre determined sequence without regard to the audience's dance energy, mood, or interest.



Yes, a sad reality for sure. This is is why I made a conscious decision to forego specifically appealing to the 'masses' . Luckily I live in large uban area where creative license is encouraged, and where there are enough people who don't expect or want to hear me perform a song 'exactly' as it was heard on the hit single CD. People thankfully come to hear me peform familiar tunes, but often with a fresh twist, and which meets with enthusiasm as well.



How long I'll be able to continue earining a living at this is anyone's guess, but I'm going to enjoy it 'while it lasts'. Performing music has been a lifelong drive & passion since I was a young child. I just feel lucky to make $ doing what I love. No matter what tomorrow brings, I promise you that until I'm dead (hopefully a long time from now), I'm going to continue performing and making music for at least someone out there. My goal is to keep the classic american standards alive by passing them on to the next generation. Though I realize that the masses may not care for the music, there are enough others who do, and they are my target audience.

Scott

Well said Scott and Dave both, and also others.
It's a deep subject and very thought-provoking. I find myself having to change with the times to work steadily. Ironically, I can make as much or more money doing a DJ job with my laptop as playing live. But it ain't no fun.
DonM

Amen...brother Don.
I want the fun too.

Now I understand the goal of those side placeholders in the Tyros board!

What is the difference between being a piano player playing an arrangement in a band and being a piano player playing your own arrangement with an arranger keyboard? I've done both and there is no difference. When I'm playing with the band I'm not pretending to play the bass and drums and I'm not pretending to either when playing an arranger.

Midi files enable we performers to do music that would normally be impossible to do. We only have 2 hands and two feet. I do think that using midi files is very close to doing the "K" thing, but hey whatever it takes.

I can't perform the "electric slide" so why not give the customer a midi or an MP3. The bottom line is to give the customer what they are willing to pay for.

Yes, a SAD irony isn't it? I turned down several high paying DJ-karaoke style host jobs this summer. Performing 'live music' is much too important to me than to compromise live musicianship to become a CD spinning DJ-karaoke host, no matter what they pay. I'd just as well drive a truck or wait tables. Geez, I hope I don't end up having to 'eat my words' some day. In the meantime, I'm gonna continue to 'have fun' performing live music as long as it lasts. - Scott

As long as I'm entertaining...I'd rather take the DJ route than the waiter routine. I'm still exercizing creativity as I host a party or run a dance floor. I play every chance I get, but when the client requests a prerecorded performance....I'm in baby. I'd rather make the contact than farm the job out to a DJ anyday.

Ok, is eating one's words allowable on Atkins?

Seriously though, when given the choice between a significantly higher paying DJ or karaoke hosting job and performing 'live' music, I opt for the later, as I don't want to help foster a profession that's contributing to the 'impending death' of live music & appreciation of musicianship. Perhaps this is just naivity on my part, but money isn't everything . . . yet.

- Scott

I have found a compromise: seems like my wedding clients want something for everyone (who doesn't?) and are often teetering between hiring live music or a DJ. My solution has been to offer to play my regular instrumental stuff for the wedding party and their parents and older guests; and I carry an MP3 player with all the junky-dance stuff for the kids to enjoy during my breaks (from Pink's "Get This Party Started" and Emenem's "Without Me" to The Macarena, Disco Duck, YMCA, The Ketchup Song, etc.). Learned this from some band friends. Everybody's happy...

Been doing that for years. First on Tape, then on MD's, then CD's now...MP3s !

What's next?

Hey, UD, why not try a thong. stuff a few dollars in the leg bands and they will get the message.

Oooo, not till Atkins melts quite a bit more off my tummy !
I'm down another 3 lbs this week. Unbelievable....I eat as much as I want, and STILL loose each week. I'm thrilled!

One piece of info I have to share with everyone regarding Atkins: I too lost weight this year with Atkins and proudly went for my annual physical last week. Good news: my cholesteral did not go up (one Atkins concern). VERY bad news: my blood pressure has skyrocketed since going on Atkins, and I've never had problems with high blood pressure before. The reason is salt. My doctor says he's been seeing a lot of this with Atkins dieters - in our enjoyment of meats and other proteins like bacon, cheeses, nuts etc. we overlook the amount of sodium that we're pouring into our bodies (I've never used table salt - it's the sodium already in the food that's the problem). I was immediately placed on a low-sodium diet. As I look now at the foods I've been eating this year, they are loaded with sodium. Unseasoned hamburger patties and chicken breasts aren't too bad (like around 55 mg each) but a serving of bacon can have over 700 mg. And you have to watch out for things like sauces, especially soy etc. that are sodium-loaded. Atkins just got a little harder to swallow...

[This message has been edited by The Pro (edited 08-21-2003).]

I've been lucky. I like the simple foods like grilled chicken, and salads. I can eat tuna or egg salad all day. So far, my BP is still great after 4 weeks on the plan. I intend to go again to the Doc after another 4 weeks passes.

We have experienced exactly the opposite on the blood pressure question. My wife has taken medicine to control her blood pressure for a couple of years.
Last week, she passed out at work after giving blood (she gives every 8 weeks).
The problem was her blood pressure was too low. The doctor has taken her off all the medicine and now her bp is perfectly normal.
The doctor is amazed. (He has been on Atkins himself for a couple of months).
DonM

I did the Atkins thing 25 years ago. I lost weight quick. This may have nothing to do with Atkins but around that time I got pain and weakness in my elbows . That didn't go well with my bricklaying. But like I said it may have had nothing to do with Atkins. I really don't know. It may have been a coincidence.

But the killer with the Atkins diet after a couple of months was, I need to eat my sandwiches. I really missed the bread. Not to mention my cajun red beans and rice. I must have vegetables of all kinds especially beans (which are a killer on the Atkins if my memory serves me right)or I get bored. It's like playing with 4 bar loops forever. Drives me crazy.

I do get a little bored with it, but not nearly as bored as I was with all that fat around my waist!
I keep finding new recipes to make it interesting. Atkins and other companies also have a lot of their own products out now, such as baking mix, ice cream, candy bars, etc.
DonM

Don,

They didn't have all of that when I did the diet. I did it the hard way. No candy. I don't even want to think of it.

As in ANY diet...you need to change your eating habits, and your lifestyle or it won't work in the long run. Modifying your behavior is paramount to the success of this plan. I eat plenty of veggies, Boo....and i DO miss bread, especially when I smell it fresh baked, but like Don said - I enjoy the smaller waistline FAR more than the limited appeal of bread and cookies.

A wise frind of mine used to say:
You eat to live, not live to eat.
Americans are too hung up on the wrong foods, at the wrong times, in the WRONG ammounts. It's time for a change.

I can't believt the difference in my energy level since I started this. My whole day is constant with a level, stron feeling of energy. No peaks...no valleys...no need for naps after dinner. I fell better than I have since High School.

I'm sure it won't work for everyone, but I can't understand how I missed it all these years. I hope it continues to be succsessful - I'd hate to go back to being fat and tired all the time, Yuk. That's how I feel when I'm waiting for those "endless, 16 bar styles to go by....." yawn !