Hi guys, I am almost 40y old and played for hobby for almost 25 years with some longggg stops for career, education, military service, etc.

My left hand skills are horrible - I can only trigger fingered chords on the arranger, but not play counter melody or even bass part, which really bothers me.

Can this be improved at my age after such long negligence? did any of you manage to improve playing skills after that much time?

Any tips will be most welcome.

Thanks / Nesh

[This message has been edited by Nesh (edited 08-27-2007).]

Nesh: Your question brings back a memory I'll NEVER forgot, when one of my music teachers, renowned vocal coach ( Judy Davis ) reminded us (her students) that she only accepted new students (under 25) because they haven't yet developed too many bad habits to unlearn, while older students have probably already developed too many engrained bad habits too dificult to break.

That said, I believe even an older student has the potential if able to dedicate the time & work (though more difficult) to improve their playing & musicianship. You first need to set your playing goals (both near & long term). I strongly suggest, if at all possible, finding a GOOD keyboard instructor in your area to work with. The advantage of this is that they'll be able to watch & hear you play and observe things about your playing, of which you may not be able to see (or hear) yourself. From this they can guide your path to keyboard improvment. It's one thing to appreciate and hear counter melodies, bass lines on a CD, etc, but it's quite another to get your fingers to duplicate & play what you hear, including coordinating both Left & RT hands to concurrently do different things. Mastering basic keyboard playing skills (scales, chords, progressions) will help to this end, whether playing (reading) from music, or by ear. I think mastering both these skills is equally important. I also suggest recording yourself and listening and critiquing your playing as objectively as possible. Good luck. - Scott

There is a book called "the virtuoso pianist"

i highly reccomend this book, it is aimed at improving stamina of the wrist, all fingers on both hands, trains finger independance and basically works both hands equally to be able to accomplish any task on a piano.

All that is reccomended is at least 30 mins to 1 hour of this book per week, and that will keep your hands/fingers equally strengthened. after playing for even 15-20 mins, and you go back to one of your songs, u feel like u can do anything.

good luck
Nick

Nick is right on the Hanon Virtuoso Pianist by G. Schirmer http://www.schirmer.com/ is great for tuning up that left hand, right hand too. I've used the book from time to time. There's a great preface by the composer that explains in detail the how and why of the book. At the beginning of each exercise is a short description of what fingers the exercise works. Rumor has it that the pianist Vladimir Horowitz was buried with a copy of the book. I believe you can even down load a copy free in pdf.

Virtuoso Pianist

Free Hanon Download

[This message has been edited by Stephenm52 (edited 08-27-2007).]

AAAAAARRRRRRRRGH !!! ...
The HANON book ... when I was studying accordion, my teacher made all his students use the Hanon book ... imagine playing those left hand exercises on the accordion ... I should have practiced them MORE !!! ...

A few years ago I began to study piano with an excellent teacher/player in RI ... he had me using Hanon ... I soon developed a problem similar to Carpal Tunnel Syndrome and had to stop the exercises ... Keith Emerson had the same problem which almost killed his career ...
t.

Tony interesting about Keith Emerson, I've been a fan of his for 35 years and never knew that. Did your problem disappear once you stopped the Hanon excercises?

Steve ... yes ... but after hearing and playing with Diamond, I am thinking of trying it again ...
t.

Sit on your right hand and start playing all the melody with your left until you become proficient at it.

This showcases the point I made in my reply (above) of the advantage of working with a GOOD music teacher. Too many music students take it (unknowingly) upon themselves to teach them self how to play/sing from books or CDs alone. A qualified music teaching professional can show & guide you to correct posture, arm, hand, wrist & fingering positions to avoid playing tension which is the culprit which leads to carpal tunnel and other keyboard performance injuries. Unfortunately these are rarely covered in the instructional books themselves, and if they are, there is nobody to watch, guide & correct you if you are doing things wrong.

On that note, here are two highly respected piano technique methods I used with teachers in my piano studies, of which has helped me avoid potential injuries:

Alexander Technique

Taubman Institute

Check them out !


Scott

is 40 too old you ask? hmmm.. check this out:... there was always a piano in my house, so as a child, I often doodled out tunes by ear on it, could read just a tad. At age 11 i was given a clarinet and classical lessons. I got hooked on jazz at 14 and at 16 swapped the clarinet for sax, and jazz lessons. I got only good enough to play a couple of weddings and to sit in at some jams, but decided that I preferred to get serious about learning to be a jazz pianist at age 21. but i was then told by so many people that it was too late..that you have to start very early, and have put in hours and hours, and on top of that have exhibited signs of being a prodigy, so I never tried, just kept sporadically doodling on the piano for fun, sang, and I put away the sax and never blew a note on it again for 14 years..until i was 35. then I had the strange notion to seriously go back to sax..too old to do that? i would never have tried to get serious on piano at 35(what i really wanted) because I was only a doodler and was intimidated by the experts..but I was dumb enough to think that because i had studied reeds seriously in my teens i could perhaps become a good jazz sax player even though i had not touched a horn for 14 years. what a moron! but by the time i was 45 I became, to everyone's surprise, including me, a competent jazz sax and bass clarinet player. too old to do more? by the time i was 55 i had become an excellent player. too old to do more now? by the time i was 65 i was world-class(one of the many who never translated that into fame/fortune--so far!LOL)) Now the keys story..At age 58 I saw that work was disappearing for groups, and with the advent of arranger keyboards, felt maybe they would give me a shot to be a solo/duo act. so i shed for about a year, then went out and started working...someone who never did anything but doodle on keys all his life. Now i'm 68 and I'm a competent keyboardist..and if it follows the sax suit, when I'm 78 I'll be excellent and by the time i'm 88 world-class LOL. Mind you, Mr. ancient 40 yr old, this was all accomplished by someone who was too stupid to know it couldn't be done..who is not a musical prodigy, who is lazy and undisciplined and has never put in long hours at anything except playing..certainly not doing book exercises or taking formal lessons or working very hard at it..just by the process of staying immersed in it and loving what i was doing..getting encouragement and discouragement but never allowing those to puff me up or bring me down..(although i was close to throwing in the towel so many times along the way)..so do you still think it might be too late..at 40..as i thought at 21?

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Miami Mo

Nice read Mo, thank you for sharing
Jim

Mo, ditto! Bottom line, if you've got the desire, dedication, and drive to put in the work, you can achieve most any dream, within reason of course. It's never too late. Look how old Grandma Moses was (in her 70's) when she first began her career in painting . - Scott

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 08-27-2007).]

Hi,
according to my first teacher, I was too old at the ripe old age of "20". First thing she asked was my age, even before I had a chance to sit down at the piano.
Did a lot for my confidence, I was nervous enough as it was.
Heck , I didn't want to become a concert pianist, I just wanted to learn to play some simple tunes for self amusement.
I learnt to read & play despite her
( albeit very poorly ) haa haa.

I found the Hanon exercises great. They really built up independant finger strength.
I think the book I had originally was the Hanon 101 exercises?? They were played over 4 octaves from memory. I found a more simplified version a few years back, it was based on 2 octaves, & didn't have the full set of exercises.

best wishes
Rikki

This brings up an interesting question for me. For years I have played right hand chord and melody with left hand bass (like Uncle Dave?). I am interested in learning how to voice chords effectively with left hand to take full advantage of the arranger section of the keyboard. I am always blown away by the players who can voice chords and make the changes in the left hand at blistering speed, keeping up with even the fastest tempos. Any suggestions as to how I might pick up that skill?

ykc: One thing I recommend is developing smooth voice leading technique when playing chord progressions . This involves learning moving as few voices as few 'steps' as possible and retaining common tones between voices when possible) between chords. I'd recommend starting to learn the voice leading pattern (in all 12 keys) for the basic I-VI-II-V7 and I-VI-IV-V7 progression. Good luck. - Scott

thank you guys for the readings and tips (well, except for sitting on my right hand...), and I found Mo's post very comforting. I think I will start by muting the bass track and gradually move from manual roots to more complex bass patterns.

good idea, and also the opposite is a good idea: use only the bass track or bass/drums only, and free yourself up to just play left
hand without thinking all that much about if
you are being absolutely correct or not. since
the bass line won't ever sound really bad without using a perfect voicing as the full arranger will, you can be free to just play freely with your left hand until it becomes part of what your body does naturally.

------------------
Miami Mo

How many times on a gig ( (job) - UD is watching )has someone come up to you and said "I've always wanted to play an instrument" ... my standard answer is "If you start today, five years from now you will have been playing for five years - if you don't start today, five years from now you will still be 'wanting' ...
Just DO it !!!.
t.

Hey ! Watch it, Tony !

Life comes in the form of opportunities, which are easy to recognize, after they have been wasted...

Ian

Ah yes... this goes hand in hand with
"The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese..."

Although practice at home, and a good teacher (best of luck finding a good one used to teaching ADULTS!) are the start of developing a new technique, nothing beats the pressure cooker of forcing yourself into a position where, on a nightly basis, you have to use those new skills in front of a crowd, with no opportunity for do-overs...

Case in point... About ten years ago, I was offered a job/gig in a high energy 9-piece on Bourbon St. in N.O.. The catch was, despite being a large band, they used key bass! (4 horn players and two singers made it necessary). Well, I had always made a firm commitment, playing in bands, that I NEVER played any bass parts at all. I HATE hearing keyboard players step all over the bassist, when they can use their LH for far more important things. So I had long developed a style where my LH comped, or played string or horn lines, or played the piano part while the RH did the organ part, etc., etc.. Basically, ANYTHING but the bass line.

But the offer was good, the club owner thought I would work out OK, so off I went. A couple of weeks to get all the basslines down for the show, and straight in... Now, I'm not saying, at the start, I was doing it very well Just even THINKING like a bass player was foreign, and disciplining yourself to place that much concentration on the hand that used to take care of itself most of the time was initially strange.

BUT.... having to do this, five nights a week with some VERY highly skilled players on stage with me (the drummer had spent years with Harry Connick Jr, Charmaine Neville, and a who's who of NOLA players) pretty much pressure cooked the skill, and soon enough it became second nature.

So... although home study and teachers can get you part way, nothing beats forcing yourself to use those new skills on a nightly basis, where stumbling exacts a greater penalty than at home, with no-one watching...

Left hand bass comes naturally to any competent piano player...it's part of what you learn.

Bass pedals are the way to go...frees up the left hand for chording...especially whilst you solo.

Can't understand why more pros don't use them.

Ian

Ian, I don't find this common..In fact I find that most trained pianist are week in left hand bass lines..

I find Diki's comment truest...You have to think like a bass player..

A bass player...with some key skills seem to adapt fairly easy..

Bass pedals are good , but I find dexterity in my left hand more suitable than my feet.[Yes I use to play bass pedals]..Root and fifths is easy enough, but when you start walking the bass, or play more intricate bass lines...I am glad my left hand is available..

I also find it very hard to play bass pedals , and expression pedal...while standing..

For the most part ..I have found ex accordion players adapt to left hand bass on piano keys..the best.. ..Both dexterity and a stronger theory/chord structure know how also helps..

You've been hangin' out with the wrong piano players Fran.

The important thing is having the dexterity in the hand, which most piano players develop if they are trained properly..."thinking" like a bass player is merely an adjustment.

Ian

Ian, I think I have been around a lot of trained pianists..We are talking classical trained ?

I have found that most classical trained pianist are not strong left hand bass players..They excel in site reading, so if the bass line was written out..they do fine..

The other fault of classical trained pianist..they do not understand chord structure and theory..

Place a Fake book version chart in front of them and let them interpret the bass line .."live"..the vast majority can not do it..

Classical training relies on technique and site reading..

Sorry I have to disagree with you on this point..as usual

That's fine, Fran, I don't mind. I still think you're a nice guy.

Ian

Fran: trained when (how long ago?), and by whom?

Every piano teacher I studied with (from Mark Levine to Larry Dunlap ), had me working out & playing LH bass lines 'early on'. I gotta agree with Ian that learning to play LH bass lines with RH playing melody, solo, and chords, an essential basic acoustic piano skill taught by competant piano teachers. - Scott

Fran,

I should mention that most enlightened piano teachers today teach a combination of pop, jazz, and classical and other types of music.

Things have improved muchly since you were in short pants and tripping off to your lessons.

Yamaha's piano course addresses those genres, and also has the students play in ensemble, with each player doing a part of a score...including the bass.

Not all teachers/music schools are created equal.

Ian

Ian, here is a easy solution..We have a SZ family here that includes many trained pianist[including classical]..Let's see some left hand bass demos from these folks..[You and Scott are welcome to demo].

Then we can judge if you are right or I am right..No demos, or a few ..I am right...Many demos ..I am wrong..

Want to make a wager/..

Come on Fran... you know you got about as much chance of getting Ian to agree with you as you have of getting Bush to admit he goofed in Iraq...

The thing is, training only goes so far... Sure, all 'competent' players (and teachers!) will have had some instruction in how to do LH bass, maybe even read it off a chart, but how many actually sit down (or stand up ) and DO IT, much of the time?

Theory, and instruction only get you so far. You want to develop as a LH bass player...? Do it constantly for several months. Turn OFF the arranger parts, just use the drums, and play LH bass, RH comp and solos. FOR MONTHS... THEN, you'll get a feel for it. Want to get it faster? Join a band, and HAVE to do it every night!

You MIGHT have got some instruction in this IF you were lucky enough to a) get a good teacher and b) actually get enough time with them that they got around to walking basslines (remember, a lot of the adults here get instruction on their arranger, NOT a full piano), but it isn't exactly a skill that the average player gets to grips with until he has been taught for several years.

And you look at most classical music, the LH does NOT play the bassline... It plays a combination of bass notes, arpeggiation, chording and high end stuff, too. About the only time you see a 'pure' bassline is a two part Invention. Not exactly the best practice for playing a bassline in a band!

The thing we have to try and remember, here, is that this is NOT a 'pro' forum. Many of the members here may have had VERY little formal training. Some are still limited to One Finger Chord mode Advice needs to be offered that can be of benefit to a wide range of skill levels. It isn't of much help to say to someone that asks about how to do something that "Left hand bass comes naturally to any competent piano player..."

Tell me this isn't what you say to YOUR students when they ask a question, Ian...

I get a sense you are starting to realize you're wrong, Fran...you've painted yourself into a corner and you are desperate to find a way out of it.

Sorry, I don't make wagers, and I don't need to prove anything to you.

You make the contest...you make the rules...ah....what a joke.

Even though you're wrong, I STILL think you're a great guy.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 08-29-2007).]

And I get the sense you are starting to realize you are ALWAYS right, Ian...

Now that Gonzales is gone, Bush is looking for someone else that is NEVER wrong... You got any legal training (not that you need it for Attorney General, these days!)?

. oops double post

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 08-29-2007).]

Gee Diki, why would you say that?

I've been wrong many times, and of course, I always admit it, no problem.

Let's see....there was the time I bought a Roland E-70...

Then, there was the time I honestly took you seriously....

Mmmmm...I'll think of a few more and maybe I'll get back to you later.

The only Gonzales I know of was the cartoon character, "Speedy"....the little mouse who was really intense and ran very fast.

Reminds me of you, actually.

Now, smile Diki...it won't hurt you...honest!

Ian







[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 08-29-2007).]

Ian, I am a great guy..but I am also right..

Yep, I gotta totally concur with Diki here. Luckily, both my piano teachers cited above, and who remain nationally renowned gigging pro keyboardists, have always pushed (required) their students to do exactly that.

B4 discovering the financial income benefit of arrangers, I played acoustic piano & sang in jazz combos and learned perhaps more from those working seasoned musicians (on the job) than I ever did from books.

motto: The best way to become a better musician is work & play with musicians better (and more experienced) than yourself.

Scott

Unfortunately, so many here buy arrangers so that they can get away from other musicians!

A REAL bassplayer might get drunk now and then, or hit on the cocktail waitresses, or play too loud now and again, or want to play Weather Report all the time, but you will learn a LOT more from him that the A. BASS section in your arranger!

No, Fran, you're delusional...that's not the same thing.

But you are right...you are a nice guy.

Ian

Is anyone hearing this buzzing sound...?

(Don't worry about the smiles, I get a pretty good laugh at your posts every time I read 'em )

Thanks buddy, I'm tickled by your posts as well...and I get the extra treat of those great little "bubbles" you're so adept at making.

All the best,

Ian