I am returning, for this thread only, to see if we can reach a compromise solution on the topic of off-topic (OT) posts on the Arranger Forum.

I am one of the members who believes that we have had too many OT posts here recently. I have taken my complaints directly to Nigel, who responded by telling me that participants here need to "act more grown up". Very well Nigel... this is the thread for us all to grow a little with, and you can start the process by allowing your policies to be more open to constructive criticism.

For a time (IMHO) we've had posters, including but not restricted to, [Names Removed By Nigel] who flooded this forum with OT posts. While they sometimes talked about arrangers, the majority of their posts didn't and they poured OT's into this forum causing a lot of frustration for those who came here specifically to discuss arrangers. Anyone can review their posts to see if they agree or not, and there are probably better examples to choose from - I am not intending to single these individuals out nor start yet another flame war but examples had to be given.

Nigel essentially states there is no problem and he will not take any "police" action to restrict posts here, yet it is clear that members have left this forum because of the OT posts and/or the open hostility that exists here at times, so there is a problem. While I don't think Nigel can do anything about hostility (other than remove offensive posts), I do think some of it stems from the frustration of seeing OT posts flood this forum.

I would like to propose a compromise solution: I would like to see OT posts in the Arranger Forum moved to the General Forum by Nigel for a while to see if it helps restore a little order to the Arranger Forum. It can be done on a trial basis, possibly with some notice left in it's place if/when a topic is moved. This might even help generate more interest in the General Forum. The fact that we have a General Forum should be sufficient reason to restrict the topics of the Arranger Forum to arrangers. I believe that once people realize that OT posts won't stay here (particularly from newbies) that many problems will be solved.

I think The Bar was a good idea but it seems to be more of a place for social OT's (ie: gig mishaps, weddings etc.) rather than non-arranger gear-related OT's that show up in the Arranger Forum (ie: "which is better - Triton or Fantom?").

I don't call this a police action but a "weeding of the garden", allowing the intended purpose/topic of this forum to thrive. Whether or not there is a lot or a litle action in the arranger world currently, I know of no other place where arrangers are the specific topic (other than Yamaha's arrangerworkstation forums) and I would like to see this forum enjoy a little protection from those who would turn it into something else.

Nigel has said to me that
he thinks I'm the only member who feels the OT posts are a problem. A simple question to this forum: is he right?



[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 04-30-2005).]

Hey Pro, good to see you back. Wow, I didn't even know there is a General forum.

Why create The Bar when you have General?

I have stated this many times, I'll say it once more.

I do not see a problem with OT in this forum. Once again, you must have MOVEMENT and lots of it for a forum to thrive. You want people coming back a lot. If the pace is fast, they come back more. Many times, this forum barely moves.

Another thing is community. Over time, you start to kinda like people and you want to share this or that. Like, just two days ago, I started to create a post about one of the most unusual things I've ever seen. An 'alien' critter I came up on during a hike. But, due to people who don't like OT, I didn't post it. It would take me 30 minutes to tell this story. I wasn't going to waste my time putting it in The Bar. There are not enough eyeballs to make it worthwhile. So, a seriously cool story, you guys will never know.

Lastly, time. It takes time to click here, click there, to visit multiple forums. I have seen it time and time again, you get too many sub-forums, it hurts. My opinion. I try to respect whatever the rules are.

I just don't see what the big deal is with OT. I honestly don't. But, hey, obviously, some people do.

The cool thing about being alive today is technology. I am friggin' blown away by the lowly psr2000. I am blown away by conversing with people on a forum like this from all over the doggone world. That's amazing. And now, ScottYee will attest, you can even TALK to them live. FOR FREE. And even PLAY YOUR KEYBOARD for them while talking. Now, that is darn sure amazing.

So, I'm pretty fired up about the whole thing. I'm a guitar player but heck, an arranger is a load of fun. And pretty cool for making demo's of the songs I write.

So, whatever it takes to make it work.

One of the problems with trying to police “OT” post is that what may start as “OT” for arrangers may very well end up relating in some way to arranger use, playing, and perception and so on.

Also, on the other end of the stick, what if the topic is on topic and then it goes off in to a different topic. I think that would be just too much work for the moderator to police.

Personally, I have not noticed an extremely alarming amount of “OT” postings. Quite frankly, I think the arranger forum has been slow. Partly because there hasn’t been any new hardware keyboard arranger offerings from Yamaha (of which most of the “older” members are fans) and like him or not, we have been “Uncle Daveless.”

I think if you think a topic is “OT” you don’t have to view it. Also, if persons want more hardware arranger topics, they can always start threads on those topics (as far as I know, all members can start new threads).

As far as hostility goes, we should have respect for each other’s musical style of playing, opinions and feelings when ever we post. We should treat others like how we would like to be treated. To me, this rule applies whether you are responding to a “regular” posting member or a one time or occasional poster.

Why can’t we just get along?

I am less concerned about OT's and BARS and General Topics, as I am about the concept of civility and respect for individuals.

I think there are people, who we've had trouble with in the past, logging on to SZ with new User ID's who are causing trouble, then changing their names to new id's and thus causing more trouble. Only NIGEL can tell for sure with the IP logging feature.

I am all for a good discussion and disagreement, but I am NOT at all attracted to sniping and personal attacks on ANYONE!

I come here for the friendship, comraderie, showmanship, and expertise that abounds here. If I want disrespect, anger, and low-class, there are plenty of other forums on the net where I can get a heaping teaspoon of that.

[This message has been edited by kbrkr (edited 04-27-2005).]

As far as OT threads go, I am afraid that there are plenty of them on every Forum: right now on Keyboard Corner (the Music Player Forum about Keyboards) there is a thread entitled "Dry cleaning prices" (the original poster is an american who moved to Holland and is complaining about the price he had to pay to have his tux dry-cleaned for a job)
So, considering that Keyboard Corner is the Forum where I go when I want to read something really related to music... I guess that this leaves little hope, doesn't it?
I am not even mentioning the Harmony Central Forum, where "off topic" threads seem to be even prevalent on "on topic" ones!
I have to say that I was glad when Nigel took the decision to open "The Bar", because at least this got rid of all those useless and annoying threads about politics, economics, religion, etc, who ALWAYS ended up with people jumping at the throat of each other.
I have long time ago abandoned the idea of using this Forum to discuss more musically relevant topics, like the chord changes that other people use to play a given song, because I have seen that almost nobody here is interested into this kind of discussion. Let's face it: arranger players are affected with GAS (Gear Acquisition Syndrome) even more than the average keyboard player, maybe because we are all grown up people with a steady income, who can afford to buy a new keyboard almost every year.... but at least this has a positive side, because if you want to know the truth, all the truth and nothing else than the truth about a new arranger keyboard, this is the place to visit!
I remember when the Korg PA1 X pro first appeared: well, Daddy JJ gave his opinion here maybe the day after the first keyboard hit the european market, and the same happened for the Roland G 70, with Roel giving us his candid opinion.
Anyway, to get back to Jim's original question: I don't like off topic threads at all, but on the other hand don't consider entirely "off topic" a question about a keyboard which is not strictly an arranger, like a Motif or a Fantom; after all, even on Keyboard Corner or Harmony Central (where 95% of the questions are about synths or digital pianos) every now and then there are people asking infos about arranger keyboards: all it takes is to re-direct them to the right place!
Final consideration: I really hope that Jim will stay with us, because I think that his presence is much needed here; at least he is one of the fews who enjoy talking arrangers from a technical point of view.

I for one, am glad that the Pro is back...I hope that he stays...if we could all just respect one another and be civil toward each other, I think we could all get along..peace
Tony Rome

Part of the charm of this place involves differences...differences in experience, age, equipment preferences. Frankly, occasionally, I've seen some silly-borderline irritating posts...and I've learned to take them for what they are...even get a chuckle over them.

Unquestionably, the net result is WAY MORE GOOD THAN BAD! I don't have to agree with you, but I'd be a fool not to realize that I can learn something from you!

Look at the friendships we've developed!
The common bond of music and civility is just too strong to let petty crap get in the way.

I'm glad to be here, and appreciate each member...WARTS and all!


Russ

Quote from Dreamer:
I have long time ago abandoned the idea of using this Forum to discuss more musically relevant topics, like the chord changes that other people use to play a given song, because I have seen that almost nobody here is interested into this kind of discussion.

Dreamer ... that's too bad, because a 'stock chord' player like myself could really gain from such a discussion ...

I really think part of the 'lack of interest' is due to the lack of new market products, especially for the 'yammies' around here ... get a Tyros II or a psr4000 out there and maybe things will pick up ... the shame of it is there won't be another technics kb (that will be better than all of them ... There, I've said it and I'm GLAD !!! )) for the 'yammies' to criticize ...

I just hope that Donny didn't lose his sense of humor along with the 80 + pounds ... I miss him already ...
t.

PS: I don't mind criticism as long as it's not derogatory like "your playing sux", so perhaps I'll have to find a way to post a couple of songs so that we can get some 'critical' juices flowing again and get some life back into the forum ... ..
t.

Tony, this is maybe the best thing I have read on this whole thread: let's start talking about music again (and of course about the tools we used to make it!)

its a relatively small forum in the GREAT BIG wide world of forums...who cares...just enjoy life and the fact you CAN..

peace, out

The Pro, you have shown your true colors - you are a hopeless and true SZ member.

As for OT posts, I don't see how or why we would want to police them. Some of them have actually been good. BUT, I agree that there have been an overabundance of what I would call nuisance posts. Maybe, IMHO the newer members just didn't understand the physics, chemistry and dynamics of the Arranger Forum pre-2005.

Again, IMO some of the new members seem to have a different opinion of the scope and depth of this forum. I found (find) that I simply discount those posts and ignore them. When I read some of those questions and see the names of some of the repliers, I just press the back button and look for something else.

JIM, in some ways I feel as you do, but I notice we are both still here, as are most or all of the other pre-2005 members. We are quieter, for whatever reasons, but we are still here. I do notice when a good thread is posted the quality replies follow.

How do we get rid of poor quality posts? DON'T REPLY is one way. Comment curtly and maybe the poster(s) will eventually get the hint. As far as moving OTs to the General forum - I never go there and might miss something if someone's idea of a useless post were to get moved. We have The Bar, maybe we need to encourage its use.

Glad to see you here; stick around!

Cass

Kinda' interesting to read the above thread. As for OT stuff, personally it doesn't seem to bother 99 percent of the folks that utilize this forum. In fact, I think without some of the treads that tend to go off to OT, and many of those that begin as OT, this would be the more boring place on the Internet. Additionally, I sincerely believe that everyone that contributes to the site is talented. Granted, some are better players than others, some have a vast amount of technical knowlede, some are great singers, and there are some that have a combination of all these attributes.

Keep in mind, however, this isn't neurosurgery. For me, this has always been a fun, information site where you can get a diversity of opinions from a number of very talented individuals.

Unfortunately, there are a few individuals that have been utter and complete asses, and this becomes obvious to those who have read there scant number of offensive posts. The visit on rare occasions, tell us how wonderful they are, and for anyone that does not agree with their philosophies in life, they turn on you like a pit-viper.

Relax and enjoy life's ride through this old world--it's a very short ride at best!

Gary

I have been away for some time, but OT threads were surely not the reason for this. Perhaps it's fair to recognize that there have been less interesting topics in recent times, but I can't see a reason for concern. Every great forum community goes through these cycles. In my opinion, the 'problem' (if we can call it a problem) are not OTs (a lot of OTs fall into music related subjects) but more the fact that we fall into the trap of getting 'too personal' about our forum collegues. When we start to know each other well, there's always the danger of a shock of different (strong) personalities. And every little excuse is good for a little friction. This is not to say that we should be 'cold' towards our collegues around here, but only that I find it would be adviseable to use a certain caution and good sense to refer personaly to others (even when talking about arranger keyboards).

I enjoyed Donny's great company for such a long time, that I can't accept that silly excuse of "too much OT" for him to leave. All I can think of is that he's not doing well, otherwise he would not have this kind of reaction. In my opinion, Nigel has been doing the right thing letting it go while OT posts don't become too predominant, and creating a space for more casual conversation (The Bar). Now, back to music...

-- José.

[This message has been edited by Route 66 (edited 04-27-2005).]

This is not clear to me. All we can state is that members SAID that have left the forum because of the OT posts... That's not quite the same you are concluding, Jim. In Donny's case, I'm quite convinced that the reason he decided to tell us he was going to leave the forum has nothing to do with OT posts. He, I and many others have posted countless times OT messages, in a friendly atmosphere. And we were always able to go back to music and arranger keyboards.

While I think open & undeniable hostility should be banned from the forum with no hesitation (as it has been done by the forum moderator) - although the best way of overcoming it is to simply ignore it -, most of the times what we have been watching here are just personality frictions, usually easily distinguishable in OT threads, but apearing many times disguised (or with the excuse) of some technical discussion. Who doesn't remember some famous discussions like midi-playing versus style-playing, keyboard stands or the Music Pad Pro? I sincerely believe we will find our way to interesting discussions about arrangers, getting to accept our differences!

-- José.

I have been around here since 199?. Since almost it's start. I sit in my music store every day and several times a day I see what's being talked about. I love this forum! If the discussion is off topic and I"m not interested, I just go on to the next one. It really doesn't bother me at all. What does worry me is that guys like Uncle Dave, Dan O. , Scott Yee, Fran Carango, Don Mason and so many others over the years, really kept this forum "buzzing", and without them, it's missing something. But that's why we are having this conversation right now I guess.
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California

George, that's exactly the way I feel! Why can't everybody do the same... it's no big deal.

Glenn

I see no problem in it at all, i know im guilty of MANY non arranger threads in the general arranger. But i mean honestly, are you too lazy to read the topic titles and see if a subject pertains to you? Or if you click a subject and you have to wait for the page to load to realize the fact that you have no interest in the topic? Big whoop. I will try to be better, but im not promising much.

Phil

(i dont mean to raise arguments or anything, but thats my 2 cents)

And I am not interested in playing censor. Hey I will do that in the case of SPAM or offensive postings, but that's all. When it comes to content that is all up to you all. I am not going to start judging each posting. I'm not the Hall Monitor and people can talk about whatever they wish. Sure if the forums were flooded with OT postings I would move them off to The Bar but that is not what I am seeing.

If you don't like to talk with certain members then don't, it's that simple. There will always be some personality conflicts so avoid them like you would in the real world.


[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 04-27-2005).]

Jim,

I'm glad to see your post. I sincerely hope you will stay around. I do agree with you that OT posts can be annoying. I just don't let them bother me. If I'm not interested I'll ignore them. Most of us are guilty of posting OT stuff from time to time. I think Nigel has enough to do without being the posting cop. Sometimes members need to be reminded that this is an arranger forum and there are plenty of us who are willing to do this if the situation gets out of hand.

That was a great picture of you and Scott!

Tom

Ok - so the consensus is that there is no problem with OT posts, they're just annoying. And people don't leave because of OT posts, even if they say they do.

The primary reason people with something positive to contribute come to this forum is because we have arrangers in common... it's what defines us as a community and differentiates us from other musicians. Yet we have no answer for people who come in here with no regard for arrangers except maybe to show them our apathy. The rules under which this forum operates is ten years old according to Nigel. Those that disagree with those rules aren't exactly shown the door but they find it on their own.

I think we can do better and have been working towards a compromise solution, even if it has been a solo gig so far. I'm willing to try one further compromise: could we consider an FAQ or a Sticky at the top to let people know what the purpose of this forum is, or does it even have one? I don't mean that as a put-down... what is the stated purpose of the Arranger Forum? Has a forum FAQ ever been drafted? Now this has to be as "OT-lite" solution as there is so surely we can come up with something to address this issue. Stickies and FAQ's are very common for forums to have... the proposal is on the table for discussion.

And all of you that want me to stay - that's very kind of you, but how about contributing a little more than kind words of encouragement? I know that there has to be ways for us to improve this forum. If the arranger world is so slow currently then now is the time to work on ways to make the forum better before we get hit with the next wave of information, or trolls. Perhaps a second moderator like many other forums have? Some visible rules of conduct? Some original ideas to improve the forum? Anyone?

I've just heard Uriah Heep's song "One Way Or Another" (High And Mighty - 1976)...

Comm'on everybody let's rock'n'swing!!!

------------------
Greetings from Frankfurt (Germany),
Sheriff ;-)

Oh, you think that you are other than other musicians? Wow, I have to stomach this toad...

I thought this forum is called SynthZone which means to me a zone for synthesizers not for arrangers...
I guess you're living in your own 'old' world and you're dreaming of that every thing won't change in time. Hey, that's not a shame - I'm likewise doing it. It's absolutely normal to feel strange if something changes. The wheels of our short lifes are turning on and on...

"WHEELS IN THE SKY KEEP ON TURNING!" - who made this song? I just forgot the band's name...what a blame...
------------------
Greetings from Frankfurt (Germany),
Sheriff ;-)

[This message has been edited by Sheriff (edited 04-28-2005).]

I honestly don’t see any thing wrong with the forum the way it is now.

I think that any extra rules, policing, restrictions on posting and a general censoring of postings would make the forum just another forum. It would loose that special ness about it. We may not get the free flow of ideas and suggestions like we are getting now. People may not be creative in their postings and may not want to share their musical experiences for fear of being censored. Not to mention the fact that it would be more work for one and even two moderators. Another moderator may not be as wise as Nigel and not know how to deal with different postings as Nigel and thus may cause even more people to leave.

Again, I don’t see anything wrong with the forum the way it is now.
Keep up the good Work Nigel!!

Sheriff....Though I respect you right to speak your mind and post your opinions, I don't believe that calling Jim a "toad" was called for....wasn't it you that stated in a few posts that we should respect each other
and refrain from name calling and slaming
the other members...you post some good posts
and your opinions are respected by me and I am upset that you would disrespect another member by calling him names...my friend, please, please let us all get along and learn from each other and share MUSIC and the
love of same.....thank you....
Tony Rome



[This message has been edited by Tony Rome (edited 04-28-2005).]

Jim, I am not sure this version of UBB forum software can do a Sticky.

Okay, you asked for suggestions. Here's one.

Everyone send Nigel $5. If he so chooses to accept this suggestion. Obviously, it's his call. With the contributions, he can update the UBB software.

The latest versions of UBB (by Infopop) are fantastic. I made forum suggestions months ago and Nigel said this version could not do it. So, an update COULD do it.

For instance, I really like to know where a person is from. I mean, country, at least. It helps to know if you are communicating with someone outside your own country. It can even explain potential misreads in what they wrote.

All kinds of bells and whistles. Like show how many posts someone has made. For instance, if you see a ridiculous post by someone and you see "1" post, that's a red flag.

Another thing newer versions do that is SO helpful is show who posted LAST to a thread. You can tell if you've already read the thread.

As for OT threads, one more time, I see it as a total non-issue. You and I obviously differ on that. If OT threads ARE to be an issue, I'd like to know the score. Are they going to be allowed or not?

I also note someone did an OT today and did not preface it with "OT." People forget to do this but if you are drafting a Sticky, you could say "Please write "OT" before each off-topic post."

If a Sticky is drafted, here's another suggestion. Drives me bananas on ANY forum. I even wrote up a webpage but haven't posted it. It's about Subject titles. 95% of the titles on this particular forum are good. These are bad...

Hey look!
I have a question
Ever seen this?
Question

You get the idea.

Sometimes, there are gems underneath titles I never click on, I am sure.

One more. This is annoying. People who 'chat' back and forth about stuff that should be done via email. We're all guilty occasionally but sometimes, it gets out of hand. You waste your time reading stuff they should be discussing privately... post after post.

There's more to this unrest than OT posts. I felt it right around Christmas time. It's got more to do with the present chemistry than just some OTs. Sorry to say this, but I said it on a couple other posts - and tell me if I'm wrong, but the more recent ON TOPIC posts have not been that great, so the OT posts seem even weaker.

In my 2 years there have always been an abundance of OTs and we've all participated to one degree or another. What I've seen lately is an abundance of what I would call immature posts. They seemed to be overly simple and needless. But, maybe that was due to a number of new members I noticed right around the end of 2004. To the SZ'z benefit it has attracted even more members. NOW I see that even the newer members are posting better and more mature threads.

Jim, you're the same ol' ornery cuss I met when I first joined and I love you for that. You bring a lot to the table. I do think things are getting better and these type of posts may have actually helped us flush out our feelings. Stick with us, if even on a limited basis. The SZ always has something for everyone.

Bill....excellant idea....the new format could also include a Private Message feature
whereby members can comunicate with one another without posting on the forum...
Tony Rome

Sheriff, I'm shocked at your acerbic reply to Jim (the Pro), especially after having thought you to be such a friendly ez going player here. I need to stand up to personally vouch (having met him personally) that Jim is neither a toad or bad person. On the contrary, he & his wife Sheila are a terrific couple that I throughly enjoyed meeting while in Florida. Jim (Esh) I suppose just can't hold back expressing strong & often controversial sentiments (some which I agree and others I do not).



Yes, the overall Synthzone website itself is intended for synthesizer enthusiasts, but this specific forum entitled: "General Arranger Keyboard Forum" is specifically dedicated to 'Arranger Keyboard' discussion, of which there is NO OTHER place on the web of its kind where we can freely discuss & openly express our opinion on any/all brands of arrangers & arranger keyboard music making without fear or censorship. Because there are already countless scores of Synthesizer forums out there to visit already, Some degree of OT-other music related, or personal trivia is of course expected (and welcome by me) of course, but I concur with Jim that PRESERVING the focus of our forum as an ARRANGER KEYBOARD specific discussion group essential. Just my opinion as usual.

Scott

Nonono, Tony! Please, don't missunderstand me!!! I didn't call 'Jim' a 'toad' - I meant the sense that he permitted with his words (as far as I could understand). All I tried to say was a german spell in english...that may could have brought some irritations. I'm really sorry for the missunderstanding!!!

All I would say with it was that it's really hard for me to believe that an arranger means that he has a little to do with musicians.
I don't know anything about your friend Jim and so there is absolutely no reason for me to treat him. Maybe I could learn a lot from him...

------------------
Greetings from Frankfurt (Germany),
Sheriff ;-)

OK... as a european I have to say something in defense of our friend from Frankfurt, because here in Italy we have a similar saying: when we are faced with something that is very difficult to accept we say that we have to "swallow the toad", just like I think that in the United States you say that you have "to swallow the crow", without implying with this a direct offense to the person who might have said the thing you have to swallow.
So.... "the toad" is not Jim, but instead what he said or proposed.

OK.... I see that Sheriff posted his own reply while I was still typing mine.

Nevertheless, thank you for trying to fit the broken line!!!
I think I would call it 'winged words'? Or something like 'idiom'?

------------------
Greetings from Frankfurt (Germany),
Sheriff ;-)

OK, I believe here in the states it's "EATING CROW"....same difference...ok I accept the explaination...it seems that a few of us took offence at the remark even Scotty...it's a good example of what Bill..
Semi-Live -Music stated, to know where a poster lives could make the difference in how you (or we) understand the true meaning
or the post..at least we all agree to respect each other with our rights to have different opinions...Andre, it was very good of you to come to the defence of one of our members, I respect you for that, setting the
record straight....well done....

Tony Rome

Sheriff. I feel a lot BETTER now realizing you meant no ill. It's certainly true that because this is an International forum, that the meaning of our words can often become easily be mis-contrued (mis-interpreted) among members (including myself). Because of this, I will try to pay especially close attention to this now myself. I'm glad we all can remain friends here. - Scott

Past it being funny as crap you made an off topic post to gripe about off topic posts...you do so after you told everyone " im gone folks and never coming back " from a topic you deleted ( lack of honor broken words ).

EVERY member on this board has made an off topic post. So do you just want everyone to shoot themselves in the foot for no reason?

When you left you said you were off to find better magical message boards somewhere that were exactly how you wanted them...lol yet your back trying to change these.

I might say some crazy stuff here time to time as do others...hahaha but ive never gone to the extreme of attempting to blanket limit freedom of speech through some forced artificial police action.

Now get mad at me at gripe...

" this is the exact reason I left people that dont think like me "

Judging from the answers to your post, there seems to be a consensus about this, yes.



I don't think this was the consensus. If I didn't miss anything, I was the only one to state that, and I tried to explain why I think so.

Once again, I think there's nothing dramatic about some amount of OT posts (keeping in mind that many of them are music related and that does make some sense even in an arranger forum). Moreover, I believe that the atmosphere could easily be much less adverse with the simple attitude of ignoring half a dozen posts once in a while, and resisting to embark in the worsening of slight personality conflits.

But hey, I'm only a beginner, an amateur and a minor contributor to this forum; music and arranger keyboards are mostly fun for me, not work. Therefore the opinions of those who contribute more to make this forum 'live' should be highly regarded. 'cause we all want them back, of course! I can't say this enough: I own a lot to Jim, Donny and many others for everything I learned here!

Jim's idea of including a FAQ or some stikies is good and useful. Sorry for not having any 'original ideas' to 'improve this forum' but if I had one thing to say, I would say: "Guys, take it easy!".

-- José.

...and I'm glad that you all understand the mistake I've made. I'm also glad that I had have the chance to apologize to Jim (Pro) and everybody who is reading these lines can see it!

------------------
Greetings from Frankfurt (Germany),
Sheriff ;-)

It's that South Beach diet. He is irritable because he is missing his pasta.
Starkeeper

Nigel....You are the owner, admin and in total control of this forum and you don't need anyone's permission to change or modify
anything...you have done a great job by yourself up to this point and I see nothing to indicate that you'll be needing any help now....please continue to do a great job..
Tony

This is becoming increasingly useless. Even the smallest, least intrusive suggestion I've made like establishing an FAQ doesn't seem to merit serious consideration or discussion. Most of the replies to my last post didn't address any ways to improve this forum by a country mile, and of course there is the to-be-expected ridicule from Alone&Forsaken solely because someone like me tried to make a difference. Nigel's emails to me are equally depressing... I am reminded of some commercial clients who sit back and say "no" to everything while refusing to contribute any positive ideas themselves.

No, there are no "magic forums" where everything is perfect, but there are MANY progressive forums where simple and unobtrusive guidelines for posting have been in place for years with no ill effects. Two moderators working in tandem to weed out the garbage that wastes bandwidth - it happens everyday. And if noone here can stop reading between the lines looking for insults or criticizing long enough to focus on ways to make this a better forum then that speaks for itself.

Hi.

To be honest, I'm not that keen on a second moderator as long as Nigel do the good work as he does and don't have any problems managing the SZ by himself.
A co'moderator is not necessarily the answer, because this also will be a person with it's own view and perspective who might "colour" the way a censorship (that we don't want?) will be carried out.
To me SZ is "Nigel" , it's free of charge (but we can share some cents if we want), here is "high under the roof" and now we also got TheBar where all kind of humor, family or health and other chitchat stuff can be discussed.

Happy playing and Posting
GJ

Like the songs says, it's easy to say no. Pretty much everyone on this thread has done it in one form or another. The real trick is to come up with solutions, and we have damn few of those. Very big risk to walk out and make a suggestion - someone (by the dozens) might come in and tell you what's wrong with your proposal without countering with a better idea.

There is room for improvement in the SZ Arranger Forum - I don't honestly believe that is debatable. My goal with this thread is to seek and discuss those improvements.

Pro,

I find myself agreeing with you in a lot of instances, but here I cannot. I think all of this is much ado about nothing. That's why I haven't responded to it very much. I also think however, that the personal attacks against you were pretty unfair.

OT posts are gonna happen on a forum like this. So what ? Cliche` as it is, life really is too damned short to fret over such frivolous things.

I spent the first 40 years of my life not understanding this too well since I was always healthy. The last couple years have been physically challenging for me, and really challenging as of late, to the point that, I don't honestly know what life holds for me in the future. That's when you find out if you didn't already know it.... this stuff just isn't that important.... Not important enough to fight over anyway. Hopefully others don't have to find it out this way..

It's easy.. I just scroll over the stuff that doesn't interest me... ( there's plenty of it ). Even in my condition, this isn't too physically demanding.

In spite of all the controversy, this forum still has the least amount of flaming and controversy of any forum that I've ever participated on. I think Nigel deserves all the credit in the world for that btw.

You guys can argue this forever. Everyone has to be "right", and sometimes we have a hard time accepting that maybe life on a forum ( as everywhere else )has to be about a little tolerance and maybe even compromise. Me, I'll just scroll over it and read something more interesting. I just hope that the good relationships that have been forged here, some over many years, aren't too strained after all of this.

AJ

Of course, and I agree fully in that, and I also think Nigel will agree as well, because he have always told us to say so if we have some ideas to share who might be helpful and improve the forum.
But then again we might have to "twist our brain" to find out what to adjust or add/remove, and what is right for me or my needs, is maybe not the same as you would like to see, so here we go again....



Hehehe...well, no wonder there is wars going on around the world... that's also about stating out who's right.
But a bit more seriously, after all we sign in at SZ by agreeing the rules and terms of use for this board, let's keep on in good harmony and have fun in good musically spirit!

Cheers all!
GJ

Jim, I'm getting the feeling that there are a great number of people who are satisfied with the status quo. Just what about it are you pissed about? OTs are a fact of life. Nigel has offered to change the thread deletion option. Some of your other suggestions, though good, may be impossible on this software. Nigel owns and runs this forum, so any significant changes would have to come from/thru him. I, for one, would support changes if they were to occur - if they were to occur.

Your anger and frustration on this topic seems unusually high. As I said earlier, I think there's more to it than OTs.

I probably did get frustrated this morning when I saw the number of posts following my suggestions concerning the possibility that a simple FAQ or Sticky or some posted guidelines might be helpful. Seems like everyone was more interested in fretting over whether or not Sheriff had insulted me or not ("not" incidently - I'm not the only one who needs to lighten up here). Also Nigel's daily emails to me are very troubling - he has this belief that I am trying to reform this forum to suit me alone... with an FAQ? And overall there is a lot of "we can't do this or that" with no counterpoint as to what we CAN do. It's all very negative... so few ideas.

We have so much being used for so little: a General Forum - the perfect place to discuss overall synth issues of any kind. We have The Bar - a nice place for OT posts of any kind. And we have the Arranger Forum - great for discussion about arrangers. Now why can't we make a Sticky that goes at the top of these forums with some posting guidelines and/or suggestions? Lots of forums have this feature and it's nothing instrusive or threatening - I don't even want to be involved in drafting it. That's so low-keyed a suggestion that it couldn't possibly hurt anyone, but I can't even get a light discussion about it going and Nigel is quick to veto anything I say now without providing a better idea of his own.

Why am I even bothering to pursue this topic when so many seem interested in keeping the status quo? One member here said it well:

"If I were to come upon the Arranger Forum as a newbie today would I be interested in sticking around? I can't really say. All I know is that everything has its ebb and flow. Right now this forum seems to be ebbing. Maybe it's the lack of new information, maybe it's the interests of the newer members. Whatever it is, it is. We can all make the SZ whatever we want it to be as long as we stay active. When we move into the background, others will step forward to take our places - and make it their own.

[This message has been edited by cassp (edited 04-13-2005).]"

Here is the current guidelines for posting, written by Nigel I assume:

"Please keep discussion to music related topics. Vendors are welcome to make product announcements & participate. Offensive postings will be removed, as well as warez related messages or any messages that may infringe copyright. This is simply to ensure a constructive & useful resource for you to use."

The current FAQ conerns how to use Smilies and such. With the exception of the "music-related topics" there are no real guidelines. Couldn't this stand a little updating, if only to "ensure a constructive and useful resource"?

[This message has been edited by The Pro (edited 04-29-2005).]

Jim, I certainly appreciate your interest in furthering focussing arranger keyboard specific discussion here, and your points are well taken, but the bottom line is that both the forum members & our administrator (Nigel) have spoken, and the changes you've propsed have not met sufficient interest for Nigel to implement them. I've spoken with Nigel privately on the telephone and he says part of the reason is the limitation of the current Synthzone forum software itself, of, to institute your requests, would require taking the entire Synthzone forum down completely (losing access to all past postings) and starting all over again developing from scratch an entirely new forum with new software, which would require all members to register again as new members. In addition to the MANY long hours of programming work required to bring it all back again, all prior valuable postings (from 1999-2005) would be unretrievable via the new system. I'll admit that ours may not be the forum with the latest 'bells & whistle' features, but it (to me) is functioning quite well providing the most important feature of all, a place where arranger keyboard musicians and enthusiasts from around the world (and of all persuassions) to freely express themselves on all topics of common interest (principally arrangers of course), but with the occasional OT post now and then to promote friendship & commraderie as well.

Jim, if you (or anyone else here) has the time or inclination to build a better arranger kb forum "mouse trap", then I'm certainly all for it. I can't speak for Nigel, but I suspect that in addition to the current SZ forum maintenance work already being performed by him, that with his many other commitments already (9-5 day job, weekend gigging, etc, there's no time available for him to take on such a big project. In the meantime, I feel our forum remains the best arranger forum out there now and more than satisfying my arranger keyboard forum fix.- Scott

When I was a full time contributor I didn't read every post. I read mostly the post where Dave got all fired up. I also read post by Dave and others that had informed me about how I could start a one-man band. That was my primary interest. To me it’s all about being somewhat successful at doing a one man band performance.

Most of the styles on most of the popular keyboards in the past to me were really boring. Again the 4 bar loops on every tune is still boring to me. So I skip the “How wonderful my keyboard is cause it has 50,000 sounds and I can tweak every one of them.” I don’t need 100,000 sounds to tweak. I won’t live that long.

So many of the topics, "either on or off topics" are not at all interesting to me. I simply don't read what I consider boring or uninteresting to me. You should be able to do the same.

Like some post here by people who consider themselves better musicians than others and have posted songs claiming to be jazz players and all they do is play a variety of the melody on three or more choruses. How insulting such a post is to a person that plays real jazz improvisation. Again, after discovering such a post, I simply go to another post that I’m interested in.

I can’t understand why everyone can’t do this and mind their own business and just read what interest them. Quit fighting, that’s for me and Dave to do. We’re in construction! Musicians should be a step above bricklayers and wallpaper hangers.

I hate long-winded post. I usually quit reading after the first 300 hundred-word paragraph! I think only Dave and I should be allowed to ramble on. The rest of you should just post brief and to the point post like DonM, Gary, Fran and Cavanaugh. Tom am I murdering the spelling of you last name? One of my most favorite aunts was a Cavanaugh in New Orleans.

If I just have to read post here about tweaking your keyboards sounds and listening to 6 choruses of melody on your posted tunes, I'm gonna order Gary's Kick-a-poo juice by the 55 gallon drum size and get loaded before I come back.

Scott: you know I respect you but you obviously haven't read my latest posts in this thread. First, the entire forum went down not too long ago anyway and we lost a lot of posts then, which would've been the perfect time to upgrade the forum software if that was required. I'd welcome a shutdown if it would improve the forum - other forums do it.

But more to the point, even my smallest request like updating the FAQ is being rejected - does that require updating the forum software too? Why isn't anyone answering that? I've tried to compromise down to the smallest possible degree and now my proposals aren't even being read before being rejected apparently.

Forget me - Nigel's registration statement is a plea to keep topics music-related and even something that basic is widely ignored, even by you Scott. There's nothing more to discuss, not that you guys were listening in the first place.

"Most of the replies to my last post didn't address any ways to improve this forum by a country mile, and of course there is the to-be-expected ridicule from Alone&Forsaken solely because someone like me tried to make a difference."

LOL I dint know truth would be such an offense to you, sorry off topic guy griping about off topic posts that said he was never coming back

" No, there are no "magic forums" where everything is perfect, but there are MANY progressive forums where simple and unobtrusive guidelines for posting have been in place for years with no ill effects. "

Then go there...geee

" Two moderators working in tandem to weed out the garbage that wastes bandwidth - it happens everyday. "

LOL perhaps Nigel would disagree with me, but I dont think bandwidth problems are all that an issue with this board. If anything its a lack in posts and posting that ive seen griped about here more often then not.

"And if noone here can stop reading between the lines looking for insults or criticizing long enough to focus on ways to make this a better forum then that speaks for itself."

Translation...If you dont do and agree with what " The Pro " states you should then your screwing yourself cause " The Pro " knows better for you.

Its not reading between the lines...your telling everyone what they should do what is best for them, then kicking and screaming when people tell you to piss up a rope acting as if thats not what your doing.

I had this idea that may help Nigel, along with some others. Possibly Nigel could hire volunteer mods, ones who are trusted and reliable. Those people would have the power to move threads and will take a load off of Nigel. Im not saying you should do this, i still find the weeds in the garden just fine, but if worst comes to worst theres options. *Edit* i see this idea has come up a few posts up

BTW, please dont point any fingers at Alone&Forsaken, sure he may have some OTs but he has done far more help and nice comments to me than could ever underjustify his threads. Same with YamahaAndy, yeah he kinda jumped off the cliff earlier, but we helped him as we helped him no matter what the topic. also, Esh ive seen some OT threads that you...yes you have made.

Phil

[This message has been edited by Pennywizz6 (edited 04-29-2005).]

[This message has been edited by Pennywizz6 (edited 04-29-2005).]

Jim, I've not been privy to your private discussions with Nigel, but from what you say might I suggest that an update of the FAQs is a mighty project. I don't feel knowledgeable enough to work on such a task alone, but would be willing to work with others if we had direction and access to the information that would go into a new FAQ. Maybe this will jump-start something or maybe not.

Suggestion #2 - start new threads for each of your suggestions. Be specific and see what the particular interest is. I, for one, have had a hard time sifting through your complaints. Heaven knows we all have complaints and with the forum having an international audience, we sometimes miscommunicate unwittingly.

Off or On Topic.................... ???

Out of 25 posts in the last 24 hours here, I opened up 7 that interested me. I like my freedom of choice.................-charley

I've tried to shut up... But hey, you've been pretty mean spirited in the past towards my music... Instead of giving me any encouragement, got a put down... I stuck with it... If I listened to you I would have quit... I think your upset cause you and the others that use to be able to crap on us, us former newbies no longer have that power... I think the worst thing is to belittle anyone who is starting out and trying to become good... Which through your snobbery, you demean them with your how great you are, and see it on my "esh" web site... I admit, I more of a lurker on this board, cause I've been alienated by the top rung of this forum for the past couple of years... New blood has come in and found a remote and a couch to sit on and I think it's just P***** you off (upsetting the former top rung of the arranger food chain) everything changes, Post anything you like... If we are all friends and respect everyone and all have something in common "arranger keyboards" what's the problem??? That's what makes forums so great, we build friendships, and over time we might what to share other things with... So when one of our fellow members says, "I have to go to cancer treatment?" That's not a post for the bar that's for everyone....

As much as your pittle on me in the past, I must say I've been to your site, I've browsed, and we all have different opinions on what is good(boy I could say more)... As much as everyone's going to get mad at me for speaking my mind... I've been on the receiving end of you ill-tempered threads and it's not a good feeling...

DJ

It's also funny that my favorite example I was going to show off how good willed you are to others is mysteriously missing. And it seems to be just that one!!!!! It's a great example how supportive everyone in the past was to new beginners... Where did it go Nigel? Let's really show how friendly this forum was? http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/007921.html



[This message has been edited by beachbum (edited 04-29-2005).]

i am a newish member to this forum, and i do agree with beachbum, i have given replies, or offered something from my experience to posts.. and some of these were posted by people i assume are longtime patrons of SZ, no response not even a "thanks, but no thanks" response, and i too have felt that some people here have stayed resolutely in their little clique and until you've been here years, done and dusted, you get either no respect, or you are dismissed as an annoyance, im NOT saying this happens i AM saying thats how it feels..the only responses i have had are from a junior member who obviously appreciated my input, (albeit on the wrong tangent) and another who thought i was being disparaging about his abilities..to whom i apologised (publicly) but got absolutely nothing.. the other response was from scott, who i think takes the time to respond to all,now i dont know what happens in the US, but here we at least acknowledge someone, even if we dont agree with them..and to be blunt, i was starting to think this forum was just a bunch of "wannabee" tossers with nothing much else going on in their life...as i said in another post, its a small forum in the great big wide world of forums...its not like we are competing or playing for sheep stations, just think of ppl in southeast asia, or other such places, even in the US that cant even turn on a light bulb, let alone a computer..anyway dont want to start a US-v-Aust battle here..we are already gonna be f***ed by the FTA...

peace, out



[This message has been edited by manic2257 (edited 04-29-2005).]

Maniac (Dennis) and all Newbies & Newish members:

Before you give all us longtime members a bad rap, I need to state that I'm one one of the oldest (not in age silly, but length of membership: Dec 1999) and not a member of any of those so called cliques here.

When I first joined in 1999, I too remember being treated by the older membership clique, the same way Maniac2257 describes here. They looked down on me for bringing up topics such as: 'rootless chords', thinking I was just some esoteric nut posting an off the wall topic. The BIG LAUGH was on them when they found out the Big Guys (keyboard manufacturers: Ketron, Yamaha, and now Korg) listened to me and subsequently implemented most all of my different feature requests, and only then did they begin to finally acknowledge and (I think) respect me.

As I consider myself an artist-musician who just lucky to be able to make $ at what I like to do, perhaps because I live by the beat of my own drum is the reason I refuse to identify with any particular click here. It was that way in school and remains this way today. In turn, I try to treat members (new & old) equally. I realize that arranger keyboard & music expertise has nothing to do with the length of ones membership here, but ones experience making music in the real world. Admittedly though, there always remains a brief trial period (as with any forum or real life social/work situation) where new members need to test the waters, and older members are trying to figure out where new members are coming from and what they have to offer to the mix.

Scott

btw: anyone try the cool Google new spell check feature which works great for SZ postings: Saves from having to edit the post later: Here's a link to the new Google Toolbar Beta3 version: Download 'new' Google Toolbar 3 beta



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http://scottyee.com

cool scott, and well said, sorry about the "bad rap". in hindsight my comment was perhaps too much of a generalistion...but i take your comments in the manner in which im sure they were intentioned...im now off to check out that google bar.

dennis

hey it looks pretty cool...scott did you choose the advanced features or not? i chose advanced and hopefully wont be bombarded by spam..we'll see how it goes..
thanks for the link

dennis

Geez Guys,

I haven't been on the forum for a while - but this post kinda startles me in that while the OT question has been around for some time - nobody appears to be threatened by OT's (with a few exceptions). Jim, the subject of having a "sticky" to explain each forum (resp) would be fine. But, on the other hand is it really necessary? I miss seeing postings from all the guys that were here when I first started - Uncle Dave, Dan O. , Fran Carango, Don Mason. Don't see much of Gary D. around here any more either. But, on the other hand I haven't been around here much lately either (I've had other commitments). I didn't leave because of OT's. There's a potential of learning new things (mostly about music and arrangers) from this forum every day - just like I learn from other people around me at my business, my friends, and my neighbors. So we occasionally have a new person that has a smart___ attitude with off-the-wall-comments - I know he (she) will soon be gone because if we don't respond - he (she) will wither and "die". Just like my one ___hole neighbor - I don't pay him any attention and he settles down. While I have on occasion been drawn in by a newbies derogatory comments, I find I am just feeding the fire. Similarly, with OT threads - if there's no response or activity re: them - they will wither and die. But I think we (the members of this forum) should have the choice of reading the few OT's posted (if we desire). If they become a major problem I'm sure Nigel will handle the situation. I'm always looking to find better ways to do things - but sometimes it's better to not fix the things that are not broken. I think most of us on this forum can tell the few ___holes we may get (by the smell of their stink) and we should handle them on a random basis or Nigel can handle as he needs to - but as far as OT's I don't see it as a major problem. By the way - I really do miss seeing some of the "original" members online. It's always good to see newbies and their ideas but I always enjoy the oldies too.

I be done,

vc

------------------
Vern

I know a Forum with 4 moderators and it doesn't work better than Nigel's Forum.
I also know a Forum without the ability to re-edit your texts. If you wrote something wrong and you won't let it stay in this kind of being then you have to write a second post to correct the first one. This Forum has only one moderator and he has simply nothing to do because the users have learned to think twice before writing...
If you want to make a FAQ then make it but I guess the most users won't read it anyway...

BTW: Jim, I didn't insult you but I understand that the translation of the german spell I would try to tell you was simply wrong understood in here. I don't insult any people as long as he/she don't insult me. I'm like a mirror and I'm only giving back what I'm getting. So, if anyone is feeling insulted by me he should think about wether he was insulting me first or not.
But you, Jim, didn't insult me so there was no reason for me to insult you. I hope that you understand it now and I apologize again for the mistake that I've created.
------------------
Greetings from Frankfurt (Germany),
Sheriff ;-)

[This message has been edited by Sheriff (edited 05-03-2005).]

Some observations.

It looks like this thread has gotten a little pissy since I last read it a few days ago.
It only goes to show WHY you should continue to read threads - threads like this one have wormed its way thru 3 or 4 different topics.
It seems that Jim "The Pro" Esch has abandoned this thread altogether.

What would happen if Jim deleted the entire thread - oops, can't do that anymore can we...

[This message has been edited by cassp (edited 05-03-2005).]