If I would choose between a Roland G-70 and a Korg PA1/X I would choose the korg. I don't like much immitations of it but it has great sounding drums in comparison and the basses are rather good too. I think I would choose it because of drums and bass, but mostly because of the drums. The Korg PA1/X is a very clean sounding keyboard (little noise in the signal path), so in that regard it is good for recording. Unfortunately it cannot immitate real instruments very good so you would end up with a lot of spacy pads, synths, drums and maybe some basses. But because of the bad organs and accoustic pianos I think it doesn't overall win over the G-70, it's just that drums are really important on a mix and it has better drums than the G-70.

Something I think is the wrong path is when keyboard/synth manufacturers try to build a complete DAW inside a keyboard. I just feel that digital outputs is enough, for getting the work done you need a good amount of CPU power, something that keyboards don't have. I really hope Yamaha has equipped the Tyros 2 with digital outputs and not only a hard disk recording feature.

BTW, the Pop and Rock demo sample of the new Tyros 2 is I think as cheesy as it can get! Really bad dist guitar, really bad kick drum and snare drum, quite dizzy hi-hat not a very impressive sound I have to say...! The Korg PA has better drums it seems like. For some reason the Power Kit demo sample was removed...

I really have mixed feelings about the Tyros 2. I have to admit that I'm not THAT excited about its sounds, much because it doesn't seem to address a solution to the quality of the basic elements.

Maybe I'm just going through a period or something, but I'm kind of starting to feel a little annoyed about keyboard sounds in general. It's realistic and very cheesy sounding. The low end of the new Yamaha Tyros 2 is not very impressive... The only thing that seems interesting about it is its expansion features. I just want to hear more "good sounding" stuff before I'm hooked. It's incredible what Yamaha has done, but the keyboard manufacturers in general are far from getting close to the real thing. I don't think I will buy the Tyros 2, I have to wait for more sound samples and I would also like to hear some of those optional samples downloadable from the internet...

I didn't like those two demos either. Yamaha has always had weak drums. They just lack "punch". That's why I generally do drum work on external devices such as drum machines.

I do think Korg and Roland have always had the edge in the drum department.

You have some very interesting and well thought out insights on the new Tyros. Very informative.

Squeak

Thanks! You too!

I think it's interesting how much a good drum sound means in a keyboard. The Korg PA1/X is a good example.

Often people mean the kick drum and the snare drum when they are talking about the drum sound. The hi-hat, rides, toms and cymbals are often not as much in focus and people easily forget that a drum kit really should have many good sounds for each drum, not only one, and the whole kit should be good sounding. One problem with the drums in the Yamaha Tyros is that while the drum samples are pretty realistic and detailed the sounds are rather dead due to the very limited velocity envelope. You can hear different samples triggered at different velocities, but the number of layers are very few and the sound varies very much between the layers, hence resulting in a very flat and unrealistic sound. What I noticed about the Power Kit in the new Tyros 2 was that the velocity envelope was much bigger hence resulting in a much wider dynamic range which made the drums less flat sounding. I thought it was much much better sounding! I also think that the Yamaha Tyros (1) lack some in the hi-freq drum sounds, especially the cymbal sounds that I think are rather "cheesy". Especially the hi-hat has to respond very aggressively sound wise on different velocity levels in order for the rhythm to sound natural, that's not the case with the Tyros (1). When a drummer hits the snare he also usually hits the hi-hat a little harder because of the tensions between coordinating the arms/hands. This in turn makes the rhythm more punchy. Details like these are very important when it comes to the rhythm element since so much of the sound is velocity driven. If the velocity envelope is very controlled and tight you get bored with the rhythm element, hence you get bored with the whole song. This is why I prefer real drums instead of keyboard sounds when recording, because I think it's very time consuming trying to get keyboard drums sound enough interesting. But the power kit in the Tyros 2 was much better, so I think the keyboard manufacturers are heading in the right direction. I'm sure this is only the beginning. Some virtual instruments can handle many layers already, so being able to record very "natural" sounding keyboard and synth productions is soon not a problem anymore.

In the keyboard world I think the rhythm element is the thing that creates the biggest differences between the sound of different keyboardists. Many are using a drum machine to replace the cheap sounding kits in the main keyboard and that's a very popular approach in the professional keyboard world. But with keyboards like the Tyros series it becomes kind of silly having to use an external drum machine because when buying a keyboard in that price range I think a good drum sound is a basic need.

Take a listen to the drums in the this song, "Dock of the Bay" played by Dwight Sills. You might think it sounds rather "normal", but even though it is a kind of laid-back sound it makes the song very very groovy! Pay attention to the hi-hat. Instinctively you don't focus much on the drums in this song, because it grooves so well, but when you take a closer listen the drummer is aggressive on the hi-hat velocity. This is what most keyboards lack. They sound realistic in themselves but dead in a groove, especially in the built-in styles. Much of the keyboard drum cheesyness is enhanced due to this.

Dwight Sills - Dock of The Bay

Surprisingly enough, there is an old style from the Roland-G 800 that had that same kind of groove: it was called 8 beat R&B (I don't remember the number of the style). Funny that Roland was unable to come out with a similar or even better style in later arrangers (not to mention the G-70).
The guitar reminds me of Larry Carlton: maybe it's a Gibson 335?
Cool song!

Just like Larry Carlton, but the playing is differently, in a good way...! The sound is quite the same as Carlton's... I really like the guitar playing in this song! I like that guitar sound too! Obviously it's a Gibson, but I don't know the model...

So the Roland G-800 had this kind of a style? I didn't know that... I think it's a great style!

Yes, I am almost certain that it was called "8 beat 5 R&B".
Listening to your song better, I think that what really sets the groove is the bass, more than the hi-hat, and this leads me to touch a sore point of many arrangers, including the Tyros: the bass is overly quantized and does not swing or groove at all!
Maybe the Korg PA1X-pro is different under this regard, and even the styles are longer (they last 8 beats in average, vs. 4 for the Tyros, thus allowing for a greater variability).


[This message has been edited by Dreamer (edited 10-01-2005).]

BTW, in the little faster parts of the solo it sounds a lot like a Fender strat too, but I think he only switches the pickup position to a more open position and the rest is EQes, so I think it's a good Gibson guitar that sounds a little like a Fender strat.

VoiceofSpace,
I totally agree with you. Sometimes I feel that keyboard makers forget how important drums are. You could have a style for example that has great bass, piano, and other non percussive instruments, and those parts sound really good, but the drums always seem to lack punch. Something as simple as a really crappy snare can throw off the feel entirely to a song.

That's also been my BIGGEST gripe with so many arrangers. Even though some may have halfway decent drum samples, they always sound pre-programed and lack flavor or "life". It's the same way with pre-recorded bass lines in an arranger keyboard. They just don't have the level of "umph" in certain styles where it's needed to carry that particular style. I think these two tracks in a style alone (are dead give-a-ways to whether a song has been done on an arranger keyboard)

All my drum tracks are done with external gear. I use a Boss DR-3 and sometimes my Zoom MRT-3 for my drum tracks. The Boss has so much realism to the patterns, not to mention the "kits" just "kick ass" in my opinion compared to some arrangers.

Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 10-01-2005).]