This has been on my mind lately. As other members have pointed out, the Casio's poly drops when playing some of their voices that contain "more layers". Such as specific voices having a poly drop down to 16 notes due to the size of the voice.

Well I got to thinking, and is there a "definitive" answer as to whether Yamaha's DGX, and YPG series do this as well? They too are 32 note poly, but unlike Casio's manual (who are nice enough to say, hey! poly's gonna drop here), in the Yamaha manuals for the DGX and YPG series, no where can I find what the actually POLY is per voice.

Anyone know?

Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 07-18-2006).]

Hi,
An example DGX-305. Taken from one of my sequences:
voice - notes used
Jazz rhytm - 1 note
Brass section - 3 notes
Sweet tenor sax - 3 notes
Drums - 3 notes
Nylon guitar - 3 notes
Live grand piano - 3 notes
Rain - 1 note
Jazz organ 1 - 3 notes
Vibraphone - 2 notes

If I played 3 notes on vibraphone there would be a polyphony drop. Obviously, some of the voices use 2 poly. I suspect:

All live, sweet and cool voices - 2 poly
All organ sounds - 2 poly
Vibraphone - 2 poly
Jazz rhytm (yes, it is an acoustic bass and cymballs combo) - 2 poly

The real poly drops to 16. So what? It's a 450 euros low-end keyboard.

On the other hand, YPG625 delivers the same 16 true poly too, shares 99% of the DGX-305 sounds and costs 800 euros. The only obvious difference to DGX-305 is the 88 GHS keys instead of 76 lighweight. It is an expensive low-end keyboard.

I did not take into account the styles because every one style is downloadable from internet. BTW are there as many downloadable styles for Casio as for Yamaha? Do the beginner users need all the features that casios has?

George

George,
Thanks for replying... It's not a pissing contest. I was curious if Yamaha's were the same. I just don't think it's fair to black ball Casio for this and glorify Yamaha if they do the same thing.

And yes I strongly feel that (even beginners) the extra features on the Casio would be VERY beneficial. I can't tell you the countless number of times I've seen users upgrade from beginner models because they've "outgrown" their current keyboard.

A keyboard should also have room for the user to "grow". If the user starts to look into basic voice editing and wants to try it.. guess what the Casio has it, if they want to get a basic understanding of organ draw bars, gee lookie here, Casio has drawbars so the user can familiarize themselves with them and their functions. If the user wants to dig into effects and get a better understanding of what the different parameters do--they're in luck because the Casio's oddly enough have good effects and many adjustable parameters for the user to use and "learn from".

I just feel that Casio's having these extra options are a greater benefit to the player for when their skills improve, and when they want to venture into those areas the keyboard already has those features. Then they won't need to "upgrade".

I've always said to customers when I was selling keyboards is that "Buying a keyboard is like buying a child a pair of shoes. You have to buy a pair that's not too small, but just a tad bigger so they have room to grow". I apply the same concept to keyboards -especially beginners-

Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 07-18-2006).]

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 07-18-2006).]

Squeak,
I agree with you on most of your points.
Here is what I think after 5 years playing with inexpensive electronic keyboards:

1) The first thing a user needs to grow is more polyphony. Insufficient Polyphony is probably the most obvious disadvantage of inexpensive keyboards. As you know I am into composing music. At first my arrangements were pretty simple. As I got used to my DGX-305 I began composing songs with more complex arrangments. In the example I mentioned above, it is a rock'n'roll song. When I hit three notes on the vibraphone, the "rain" voice drops out and the effect is lost. So I have to reduce harmony-fill notes.

2) Quality of voices. In my opinion, 30 very good quality voices is better than 15 very good and 400 bad to worse. However, a beginner user will show off when they say their keyboard has n hundreds of sounds.

3) I didn't mentioned the issue with the quality of the keys - In my opinion lightweight keys should be the minimum requirement to a keyboard.

Voice editing and drawbar organ sounds interesting

BUT

On the other hand, Imagine the novice user, a person who have never touched an electronic keyboard. If he/she got an entry level keyboard, they could get confused by some of of the features. If you visited the Yahoo DGX group forum, you could meet with many people who have trouble to understand the basic operation of the keyboard.

To summarize: As I said in another topic "L'apetit vien an manganeant" - Appetite comes as you eat. I outgrew each of my keyboards in a year and a half. That is the time Yamaha need to deliver the next DGX generation. Unfortunately, I don't feel like upgrading because of what I said in points 1) and 2)

Good for them. This proves that their interest in keyboard has increased.

Squeak, If I were you I'd count the keyboards as photo-cameras. If you get into taking photos you will need a better camera. You can hardly sell a semi-professional DSLR camera to a person who has never touched a camera.

Best regards,
George

---------------------------------------------
On the other hand, Imagine the novice user, a person who have never touched an electronic keyboard. If he/she got an entry level keyboard, they could get confused by some of of the features. If you visited the Yahoo DGX group forum, you could meet with many people who have trouble to understand the basic operation of the keyboard.
---------------------------------------------

Keep in mind though the Casio WK's and the upper end Privia's aren't Casio's "entry level" models

I totally agree with you about the poly--EVERY keyboard on the market could benefit from more poly! I also agree about the number of good sounds compared to hundreds of poor ones as well. The thing is that with the new WK's and Privia's--you're not hearing the "old Casio" anymore. Other's here have even agreed that even Casio has a few signature voices of their own that shine.

Squeak

Oh my! I forgot to mention one more very important point

4) All keyboards, regardless of being low, mid or high end, should have line outs.

Phones out delivers poor quality when recording. That's the reason I dont share my songs with SZ users.

5) the same applies to midi ports.

I am not a die-hard Yamaha fan. I heard some recordings of the previous Casio models and I admitted the WK3700 sounded better than my present keyboard. If only the new casios had 64 poly I would switch brands immediately.

George

George,
You are SOOOO right about the audio outs, and midi jacks! I'm pissed at both Casio and Yamaha for dropping this simple (inexpensive) yet so common feature.

Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 07-18-2006).]

George, I believe the example you cite is related to the MIDI channel limit. As stated in the YPG-625 manual: "By default (factory settings) the instrument ordinarily functions as a 16-channel multi-timbral tone generator,"

I believe the Casio 10 voice polyphony (for some tones) refers to actual voices played on the instrument in real time. If my interpretation is correct, I feel this is inadequate. As best I can determine, on my YPG-625, every tone uses one (1) voice of polyphony -- including the XG piano/string sound (though the Live! piano and ensemble strings dualed up sound much better). All the tones are stereo. Eg. You can hear more piano bass coming out of the left speaker, and more treble coming out of the right speaker. Yet, the 32 voice limit still applies.

I think of these models more as live performance instruments. If you want serious sequencing, I think you go to a computer.

From what I understand, reading this board and a couple others, the stereo piano sound on the Privias have a 16 voice limit. There would be some serious drop outs on some pretty simple songs. "Send In the Clowns" is one that comes to mind. (The piano arrangement that everyone plays.)

Rick

I think that both Yamaha and Casio are very good in their respective targeted markets.

Speaking as someone who had been in music retail for 30 years, who plays out, loves music and who teaches, I will discourage anyone from buying a Casio who is a beginner or any other level. Why? Many adult hobbyists are lucky to manage playing with both hands. Most will be started with single finger chords and most will continue with that. They want to have fun making music, they're not going to Carnegie Hall. Even if they think they want to learn 3 and 4 fingered chords and eventually buy a piano and play it fluently, it will not happen if their life depended on it.

So, I feel in all the discussions on this particular topic that I have ever seen, I do not recall that the most important subject has been touched on. Most hobbyists will be playing with one finger in each hand. Then when the minor chords come along they play with 2 fingers.

Yamaha and Casio have different easy play fingering systems. I always try to help a beginning student by having them get a Yamaha because they become accustomed to one fingering system and a OS that is similar on all of their instruments. If they want to upgrade, they can get a $3000 Tyros 2 or a $15,000 Clavinova at some point, and their playing will not be disrupted. It makes for much easier sailing.

How far up can one go in the Casio line? A few hundred dollars? Then what? They want to upgrade and then they have to attempt to learn a whole new easy play fingering system? I will not put my students through that extra agony.

Most adult hobbyist will never sequence, care about playing with drawbars and will have to put in plenty of effort just to understand the basic operation of the arranger controls, which is why they are interested in the first place. They want to be able to play live real music.

While these comments are leaning more towards older adults, I still believe the same thing for children and younger adults. Why subject them to one way of learning, and then want to change them?

Scott
http://ScottLMusic.com

I would never teach that easy finger[non musical] system...If you have an arranger student..still teach proper chording..When I taught students[arranger students], I used the Pointer system[books]..The ideal was based on third inversion chords..but made simple by using your pointing figure to the root of a chord , you thumb two steps to the right and your pinky three steps to the left,,As in the C maj chord..Pointer to the C, Thumb to the E, and pinky to the G...

Then no matter what board they advance to ..they have basic chord structure..They can also be taught piano play with out the false chording [one finger]..They will adapt to proper teaching of the piano..

Hi Scott
You may be correct about the USA, but I can assure you that here in the UK it is exactly the opposite, most hobbyists learn proper chords from the offset, and enjoy delving in to there instruments to find what is in there, they also absorb all the info on the various forums and magazines about how to get the best from their instruments, this is particularly noticeable at festivals where the in depth use of the instruments from the various manufactures are the best attended. (Playing techniques also come high on the agenda)
Regarding changing manufactures, if they find an instrument that sounds better or gives them more of what they want, then they will soon change and learn the new OS system. (In fact the only reason people sometimes don’t change is mainly down to cost, although at some later stage they will always find ways to get what they want)
Perhaps the above is why manufactures concentrate more on the UK and Europe market, then they do on the USA market.

Bill

Scott I have to disagree. I would never attempt to show any "bias" towards a particular make when selling someone a keyboard--even a first keyboard.

The Casio OS is similiar in almost all of their line up. One can move from one Casio to the next, and not be overcome by an entirely new set up. That's just locking someone to "one" brand for life.

All the companies make good keyboards, and as children and adults progress the odds of them switching brands is very likely.

We can't just assume that someone isn't going to use the drawbars, sequencing, ect. How are we to know where their interests will be 6 months or a year down the road?

I would never assume someone wouldn't use the drawbars. Especially an adult. Many adults were playing the organ and piano before keyboards/synths.

I just think it's a very closed minded position to take.

Squeak

Scott,
I disagree too. Do you think 76 & 88 key keyboards, especially those with weighted keys, were designed for people who play with one finger in each hand?

I think these keyboards were designed to meet the needs of people like me - composers, and piano players - people with musical background or serious hobbyists.

This is my main concern. There is no keyboard on the market that meets my needs. I need an 88 weighted keys arranger with quality of sounds similar to PSR-2000 or 2100. You might suggest I need to look for a synth but they are too sophisticated. Maybe the Mo8 is my keyboard? Too expensive probably...

Buy an 88-note controller, a PSR 2100 and a midi cable. Or a pro-level digital piano and the Ketron Midjay.

I had the same thought, that nothing existed that would fit my needs, but it wasn't true and I now have two stage rigs:

Rig #1: Yamaha 9000 Pro (with PLG150-PF for piano w/64-note polyphony) with a Radio Shack Piano as a controller. Works great and sounds excellent. I thought it would be inconvenient to go back to a dual keyboard rig but it isn't... the Radio Shack piano (rebranded Casio CDP-100) is superlight to carry and the action is terrific.

Rig #2: Kawai ES4 w/Music Pad Pro v4. The ES4 piano has 96-note polyphony and is a great instrument with no shortcomings. The Music Pad Pro can play back MP3 files for accompaniment and I use it with acoustic pianos as well. I considered the Ketron MidJay as an arranger and MP3 player to go with my piano but I use backing tracks more than arranger functions live and I needed a convenient way to display my music anyway so the Music Pad Pro was the way to go.

I tried everything in the under-$1000 digital piano market and found that it was all useless for me - 32-note polyphony would never cut it - but for less than twice the price of a $700 Casio or Yamaha I could have three times the polyphony with a Kawai ES4 and own a piano that would be great to play for many years to come no matter what technology comes along. The arranger part is secondary and there's many ways to address it if you really need it.

Hi George
There is a Piano made with an 88 note hammer action keyboard that has full arranger functions, unfortunately they have not yet released a portable version, and it is also quite expensive.
The instrument is the Wersi Giga Piano; (And it has all the arranger functions of their OAS keyboards) it also has advantages over the other Wersi OAS instruments, in that the piano samples are taken directly from The Grand VST by Steinberg. (Other OAS uses have to purchase The Grand VST separately)
Just thought I would bring it to your attention.

Bill

The least expensive all in one 88 key model on the market at the moment (with a stable OS) is the MO8. It's not an arranger though.

There's the Fusion 8HD (that sells for less), but if you buy this model you better get yourself a can of "Raid"--your music will be crawling with "OS bugs".

Squeak

Why is there a pre-occupation with all-in-one keyboards/arrangers? One size doesn't fit all, which is why mega instruments cost so much: because they sell to so few. The more feature-laden the keyboard, the more that can go wrong and the more work it takes to debug it. Customer spend thousands just to wind up being a beta-tester. I've lost a lot of faith in MI companies over the years - these days I need an instrument I can rely on when I pay for it, not years down the road.

Esh,
It's because of the set up. The all in one unit.., is more appealing to the market. The choice is one unit, or multiple pieces of gear to accomlish the same thing. We want our value meal supersized, but our gear downsized for all different reasons.

Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 07-19-2006).]

Haha. Well, I suspected that my post might bring a lot of response, especially since a lot can be lost in the printed word over being able to discuss and explain different aspects of this concept, so I knew a lot would be assumed and possibly stir strong feelings in one direction or the other.

Everyone that responded to my post has valid points. I know what the ideal learning/teaching situation would be, but I can tell you that having been out in the trenches in the home organ field for many years, which is essentially an arranger keyboard in a wooden cabinet, that what would be an ideal way to learn, what is easy for you and me, and what really takes place with students is 2 different things.

Now, most of what I said is referring to senior hobbyists, with a lot of that which can be carried over to younger people. Each person is different in ability, natural talent, time spent practicing ect.

The best way to learn, IMHO, as I see it from many years of being exposed to this is to get a person started with one finger in either hand, just like is taught in a typical beginner piano lesson. If all other elements go rather well, such as being able to play both hands together in something close to being in correct time with the rhythm and they have the interest , then an attempt should be considered to switch to fingered chords playing all chords in the most recommended F -F position. This is where all chords are played in inversions where each chord is played as closely to the other chords without jumping around. This will allow those students to be able to play without looking at their left hand which will mean fewer mistakes and much more rapid progress.

Once a student learns and masters this approach, if the desire is there then more advanced left hand activities could be approached. These people would be rare, unless they are staring out as a younger person, especially a young child.

I am all for most of the ideas expressed so far, but again, I can see what takes place in most situations.

The pointer system is both a blessing and a curse. In one sense people learn how to play all chords by pointing to the note that is the name of the chord, playing the other notes of the chord and jumping all over the place locking their fingers in that one position. So, in one sense, it's good and instant. In the other sense, almost invariably those people will always, and I mean always have to look at their left hands when moving from one chord to another and will lose their place in the music and this is where the mistakes come. I'm sure there are some people that have gotten this down to a science, but I have observed this problem for over 30 years.

A lot of this has to do with a students desire of where they want to get with their playing. And remember what I am talking about here is learning to play organ/arranger keyboard, not piano. I also teach chord piano. On piano this makes sense because the student will sound good almost right away, but with a lot less to consider such as playing in perfect time with the rhythm section.

So, this approach is designed to allow those that can't or don't want to switch to fingered chords to be able to play and not quit in frustration, and yet allows those with the interest, desire and aptitude to continue on through other various ways of playing left hand in logical steps.

I hope this clears up any questions about this. I am all for all of the possibilities being explored, but there is a definite need to start so that all players will continue and not just the ones that can master fingered chords.

Best
Scott




[This message has been edited by Scott Langholff (edited 07-19-2006).]

Dear friends,
Thanks for your suggestions. The Mo8 sounds incredibly and Esh is right that I can access all yamaha styles by using Jos Maas' One man band. Such sophisticated keyboard could keep me interested forever - or until I get to the point where 64 poly is insufficient

OK. I'll try not to be too choosy.

For the momenth I think I'd better stick to my present keyboard.

Best regards,
George.

Hey man, the title o' dis thread be: "Casio's 32 Note Poly (vs) Yamaha's 32 Note Poly." squeak_D wanted to know if there was a "definitive" answer as to whether Yamaha's DGX, and YPG series have a poly drop down to 16 (or 10) notes due to the size of the voice, like the Privias have.

I think there is a definitive answer, and I think I gave it! The answer is no -- the YPG's do not drop to less than 32 notes of polyphony. There is also a 16 channel limit for MIDI files, but that's s different issue. The 16 channel limit also applies to the Privias (with the 10 note polyphony limit applying simultaneously).

So I think there's a real, substantial, functional difference between the Privias and the YPG-625 for people like me, who use more than two fingers at a time, fergawdsake.

Esh, there is too a one-size-fits-all keyboard/workstation/arranger. It's called a piano. You supply paper and pencil. Worked for Beethoven!

Rick

hey rick, i have to disagree with you..the polyphony will drop if a particular "voice" uses more thn one sample,its the way synths have always worked, one oscillator = one voice (nowadays read "sample" for the word oscillator)...for example, usually the primo pianos are at least a couple of samples, so they can drop below the 32 notes (ie 16), HOWEVER, what most synth manufacturers do these days,and some of the algorithms they use are very complex and clever, with their samples is use velocity switching so that dropouts are nowwhere near as noticeable...i would be prepared to say if you used a voice that has more than 1 sample used, and could hit 17 notes at the same time with the same velocity you would get a drop out, this is assuming the voice creator has all the samples set to the same velocities (and just holding the sustain pedal and playing a note 17 times does not always work either for the same reason)...
the reason yammi's is not as noticeable as the casio is better voice allocation algorithms,but it still happens...

[This message has been edited by miden (edited 07-19-2006).]

Sorry, but I have a YPG-625, and I can count to 32.

I understand all you say, but it simply doesn't apply in this case. I don't know how many literal "samples" Yamaha takes to get stereo sounds, and neither do you. It's a proprietary detail of their AWM system.

With other keyboards, some sounds use more than one voice of polyphony, and the manufacturer lists the number of voices used in the voice list. There is no such entry in the DGX/YPG voice list for the simple reason that the answer, in every case, is one (1).

Or, hey, maybe every sound uses up two voices, but a DGX/YPG actually has 64 polyphony. Since every sound is stereo, it doesn't really matter, does it? They can define their terms however they like.

From the Yamaha web site: "What's polyphony, you ask? Simply put, polyphony is how many notes a keyboard can reproduce simultaneously. The DGX-505 has 32-note polyphony allowing you to play intricate arrangements and dense musical passages." Note they say "notes" not samples.

None of which really matters. What matters is that I have a YPG-625, and I can count to 32.

R.

nothing to do with proprietary anythng...its simply how synthesis works, as i said in the old days the oscillator produced a tone (saw, square, triangle) ad then through subtractive synthesis you created your sound...one oscillator created one sound, or a monophonic keyboard, then they started installing more oscillators as technology increased...these days ONE sample (the equivalentof ONE oscillator) is assigned to ONE sound ( the stereo doe not come into it) stereo simply means they have allocated 2 sounds split over the left/ right fields,it still uses 2 voices to produce the sound...you don't have to believe me just look at your yamaha manuals, although perhaps the home arranger keyboard manuals dont go into the detail on how the sounds are allocated, as do the synth (Motif etc) ones...just ask your yamaha techie, they'll tell you the same thing...its no big proprietary secret...the voice allocation algorithms for each manufacturer ARE though..
and yes, i can count to 32 as well

miden, you are absolutely correct. I guess I can't count to 32.

I was hearing some things with the pedal that made me think the polyphony was 32 while playing stereo piano sounds. Then I thought "maybe that's not an accurate way to go about this," so I got some hard cover books and an old picture frame. With the picture frame, I can play 24 white keys at the same time.

Stereo pianos (Voices #1, #2 and #3): If I play and hold down a big Db, then play and release 24 picture-frame notes, the Db is no longer playing. It doesn't matter which 24 notes I play with the picture frame.

Also, if I play 10 "book" notes at a time, followed by 10 more book notes, then hold down one of the 20 notes with my finger before releasing the other 19, the finger note may not be playing. That indicates it stopped playing when the second group of 10 notes started. The notes that cut out usually seem to be the top four notes out of the first group of 10.

Mono piano (the first two XG grand pianos, voices #140 & #141): Now if I play and hold down a Db, then play and release 24 picture-frame notes, the Db is still playing. And with the two book test, I can't find any notes that cut out. So I guess this has the true 32 note polyphony.

Piano/strings XG combination (voice #142): Back to 16 note polyphony. Same test results as for stereo pianos.

Stereo piano/strings combo (voice #1 dualed with string ensemble): 8 note polyphony. By standing the book on end I can play 7 or 8 white keys at a time, depending on how I place it.

If I play a Db, then play and release 7 book notes, the Db is still playing. If I play the Db then play and release 8 book notes, Db always cuts out.

I'm sorry I made negative comments about the new Privia PX-575R. It looks like a very exciting instrument! I like the 120 user tones. My YPG-625 doesn't have any synth functions. I hope the speakers turn out to be better than the PX-555R.

Don't know what's going on with the pedal on the YPG-625. Might take another month of tests to figure that out.

Rick

Rick,
Actually, I think Yamaha cheats at us by not providing the "Voice-polyphony used" table in the manual. Like you I was mislead to think that the keyboard was 32 poly. It was a very bad surprise to discover the truth post-factum.

George.

Good point George. This is something that bothers me about Yamaha. If I remember correctly even my MO8's manual doesn't list the poly of each voice--when looking at the voice data list. If it's somewhere else I clearly missed it

I don't think Yammie realizes how GREATLY helpful that info is. My roland RS-70's manual list the poly for each voice. I use it all the time when sequencing. It helps me reduce dropped notes if I can see what the poly of a voice is before I record with it.

Squeak

Squeak

Out of curiosity I'd like to ask you a question. Do you know how much polyphony do the mega voices on your Mo8 use?

George

[This message has been edited by George V (edited 07-26-2006).]

Don't know off the top of my head but I can probably find out. I'll get back to ya.

Squeak

George, Email me. There's not one listed for you.

Squeak

Forgive this newbie question on the poly issue but when you are playing styles or backing rythyms on the Casio or Yamaha's does this use the poly? I understand that each note takes up one poly but lets say I'm playing a four note chord on each hand and have a rythym track going in the background, does the rhythym track eat into the overall capability of the keyboard?

Hi Gibson,
There are no newbie questions.

When you play in auto accompaniment mode each note of the accompaniment takes up from the polyphony no matter how many keys you have pressed with your left hand.

When you play in full keyboard more each note of the drums track eats up the polyphony.

Basically, every sound that comes out of your keyboard uses polyphony.

Squeak and Rick, Yesterday I went over the local yamaha store and noticed they have the YPG-625. Tomorrow I'll try it and will post my review.

Regards,
George

GeorgeV-Thank you for the fast reply. Well, that being the case, if I want to use the board for backing tracks to record and play along at the same time then I'm going to need more that 32 notes. I was really looking hard at both the Casio 310 and the Yamaha 625. I guess the next step up would be the S08, S90 or the Alesis Fusion 88. I was hoping to get by a little cheaper but I guess you get what you pay for. LOL

The polyphony is used for that instant in time. If you hear a piano note (and it stops sounding), and a micro second later a bass note, the piano note polyphony was released and the bass was able to use it. In an accompaniment, the notes are not all played at the same instance.
Starkeeper