That's the thing about younger players... If you don't go out to clubs where they hang, if you don't listen to radio stations that play them... what right has anyone to make ANY comment about them? Judging from an uninformed position only makes the judge look stupid, IMO.

Yes, you have to wade through a barrel of whale-dreck to catch the few really good ones, but when has that EVER not been the case?

Actually, our beloved arrangers are quite a part of the problem. Once you say to yourself 'I don't need any other musicians, now', you remove the need (at least, in your OWN mind!) to constantly go out an LOOK for these players. AND, you remove the pressure on yourself (from these other, hopefully great players) to get better yourself, too. No arranger has EVER, at the end of a song, turned to me and said 'your ass was dragging on that one!'.

Hearing that (when it's true!) is one of the MOST important reasons to play with real players as much as possible, even if only an addition to your arranger if not an outright replacement. I must confess, there is something about arranger players that makes them not necessarily the most humble musicians out there. A lack of feedback from the arranger MIGHT have something to do with that...!

That's a valuable lesson for us all. But can't we still hate 'em for being so good, so young? How'd they get so good so quickly? Could it be that they were out practicing scales while we were out practicing licks (to impress girls and bar patrons). Could it be that they're just flat-out more talented? Nah. The secret, I'm sure, is the amount and level of classical training. There are some who believe that too much training kills creativity and "soul". What a bunch of horse hockey that is. Training, technique, and mastery of one's instrument, only allows you the freedom (and tools) to express that creativity. Believe me, the ones who excel in this business without the training are the exceptions, not the rule.

I also think (and this will come under fire) that the best and most accomplished musicians are to be found in the jazz ranks. Not the most successful, the most accomplished. I'll bet that if you asked every guy in the Tonight Show band or Letterman's (Paul Schaefer), they'd describe themselves as jazz musicians, with few, if any, describing themselves as rock, pop, blues, or country musicians. If you don't think this is true, stick a chart in front of a musician from any of the other genres' and listen to the deafining silence.

What makes a fine, successful musician? Three things; talent, drive, and training. So if you've got the drive and the training and still can't catch a break, even here on SZ, here's a clue; it's the TALENT, dummy.

chas

But give a jazz player a country chart, and although he will have no trouble going through the changes, will he be able to make it sound country? or merely hokey?

Probably hokey. But then again, they don't teach that "nashville" notation at the conservatory. Hey, just kidding. I have a lot of respect for the nashville studio aces. They're known to be some of the finest musicians around.

chas

I recently played a 3 hour outside job for a car show. A local chamber symphony was practicing in a room behind where, as they were up after me. They could read music and were trained, but to my astonishment, it was AWFUL. As I picked out the individual instruments, I could hear plain garbage. Just because one has years of site-reading/training, doesn't mean they have a FEEL for music. So there's always a flip side to everything. IF YOU HAVE THE FEEL FOR MUSIC, IT WILL GET YOU FAR.

...and if it's supplemented by training, it will get you even farther.

chas

But classical training can actually work against you. Many of the musicians i have played with learned to play clasically first and play beautifully when the music is in front of them but take it away ......and they are lost. I think that training is very importnat and so is technique but passion and talent are so much more important. Having the passion means that you want to learn, having the talent means that what you learn is embedded more quickly. The guys I play with at church ( i am talking musical instruments !) Listen to a whole lot of excellent gospel jazz musicians and they learn almost entirely by ear. They spend hours upon hours listening and then replicating what they hear and then inovating on what they hear in every key. Thats how they become so versatile. Thats how they develope a depth of an appreciation of music far beyond their years. And they are always eager to learn new progressions and riffs and apply them in new situations.They seem far more adapt at changing the styles they play than any classically trained musician i know !

Man, I guess I went about it all wrong. I just wanted to get drunk and laid when I started.

R.

As good a motive as any, maybe better than most.

chas

After all, how do you think the NEXT generation of young players are going to get conceived...?