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#141659 - 11/21/00 10:22 AM Yamaha PRO 9000 and touch sensitive arrangers
john smies Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/05/00
Posts: 1073
Loc: koudekerke, Holland.
In the discussions so far about the PRO 9000
(and not only the 9000 as I might include
Technics and all) it has struck me that no one seems to be bothered by the lack of "touch sensitive " arrangers, by which I
understand the possibility to give positive and (with Roland e.g. ) even negative values
to the Arranger parts (drums, bass, arpegg.)
thus greatly enhancing the "expression" of the accompaniment. It was already included in the then famous Roland E70 and has been
maintained all along the Roland flagships
(to the best of my knowledge). Solton had it,
Solton has it, and so did most Technics up
until the KN3500. Yamaha dropped it with the
heralding of the PSR8000 and I have now been
given to understand by a Yamaha spokesman overhere that the PRO9000 in this respect will not differ from the original 9000. For
a "professional keyboard" many of you are alreay claiming to be setting an example for
the next generation of keyboards to come, I find this rather distressing. Or don't you ?!

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#141660 - 11/21/00 11:07 AM Re: Yamaha PRO 9000 and touch sensitive arrangers
Dnj Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 36071
Loc: New Jersey
John,

I'm trying to grasp your drift in this post. But to me this boloney about what is a Pro Keyboard and what is not is what bothers me. I can take a lower end $200-$300 arranger keyboard of any brand and go out and make music and money with it which I have done on occasion, but I choose to use a Solton X1 at this time because thats what makes me happy performing with it. Now, does that make it a Non Pro keyboard or a Pro keyboard because it doesn't have speakers, or other features or cost less? The "PRO" is In The Person using it and getting Paid to play it. This is a non win situation discussing whats best in keyboards. I'll bet everyone on this forum plays differently and thinks what they use is "THE BEST" and they have every right to do so as long as they are happy doing it. This will never change no matter what comes on the market year after year. Playing music comes from within and is a Super Personal Expresive feeling that we musicians put out wheather at home or professionally on stage. Making yourself happy inside first playing music and then make others happy performing is what "The Magic is All About" IMHO.

Have a Great Thanxgiving!

Donny
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Korg Pa1000,LD Maui 28's G2 Mix,LD Maui 5,TC Voice Solo FX-150, Shure GLXD-24,EV ND767,
Audio Tecnica AT2035, Mixcraft Pro8 DAW, Alan & Heath ZED 6FX, Chauvet Mini Kinta lights..

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#141661 - 11/21/00 01:23 PM Re: Yamaha PRO 9000 and touch sensitive arrangers
Scottyee Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 10422
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, CA, US...
I think the "important point" John Smies makes here is that the "keyboard touch sensitivity feature" used to trigger the relative volume of the auto arranger parts, apparently appeared on earlier arranger keyboards but is no longer included in the current line of arranger keyboards. I haven't heard of this feature before but it sure seems like a valuable feature to have for enhancing the "expression" of the accompaniment. I too wonder "why" this seemingly useful feature has been elimated in current arranger keyboard models.

Scott
_________________________

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#141662 - 11/21/00 04:46 PM Re: Yamaha PRO 9000 and touch sensitive arrangers
Clif Anderson Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/00
Posts: 532
Hi John

I agree that it is a shame that a "Pro" instrument lacks touch-sensitive accompaniment, at least as an option. However, I can see the problem with it is that many players are not skilled enough to hit chords with a predetermined velocity. The result is a lot of unintended variation in the style. The preferred solution would just allow a user to switch off the feature, rather than not provide. In the meantime, realize that you can control accompaniment volume using foot controllers. For many, this might yield more satisfactory results.

A lot of times we complain when manufacturers leave features out. But I am sure they are responding to complaints from those who objected to the features. I remember on PSR8000 users who wanted to know how to turn aftertouch off. Aftertouch was the main feature that made me willing to spend so much on the PSR8000. Why would you want to have no real-time control at your fingertips? Obviously, that user did not like the sound varying each time he played a note.

I think, John, that you are doing a service to the arranger community by bringing velocity-sensitive accompaniment to the attention of people like Scott who could probably make good use of it. When the manufacturers see a large enough group of skilled musicians using arranger keyboards, they will put in features that require skill to use them. (I will add my plug for polyphonic aftertouch here.)

[This message has been edited by Clif Anderson (edited 11-21-2000).]

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#141663 - 11/22/00 10:00 AM Re: Yamaha PRO 9000 and touch sensitive arrangers
TomTomSF Offline
Member

Registered: 03/24/99
Posts: 736
Loc: Half Moon Bay, CA, USA
To Scott, Clif & All
I'm surprised that most makers have omitted the touch/velocity sensitivity of the auto-accomp section. I have in on my EM2000, and yes, it does add nice variety to the style. Roland has made it comletely customizable. You can have 2 accomp intsruments play with a light touch, and then 3 other play with a heavy touch (still within the 5 for that particular style). Or you can have 1 or all the instruments change their volume, by your preselected amounts. Or the drums. It's pretty cool, but it isn't all that easy to make it sound great. BUT, I'm a novice player. I'm sure a pro, like Scott could really make this feature shine. And you can turn it off with a push of a button.
Clif, when I got my first touch/velocity sensitive keyboard, I ALWAYS turned off those features. I found them very annoying. Having come from playing organ, I hated that you had to hit the keys precisely in order to obtain a proper volume! I have since learned to use this with great advantage. But it took me quite a few months before I was even willing to put up with it!
Tom

[This message has been edited by TomTomSF (edited 11-22-2000).]
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#141664 - 11/22/00 07:55 PM Re: Yamaha PRO 9000 and touch sensitive arrangers
DanO1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/01
Posts: 3602
Loc: Maryland
Hello to all,
Great subject.....What is a "PRO" Keyboard.
I work for Guitar Center in Baltimore MAryland. I sell all kind of keyboards.
Many musicians see a keyboard with speakers on it and just walk right passed that keyboard. Arranger keyboards just get over looked ! If someone want to spend less than $500.00 I have no problem showing them a Psr540 vs... say a Roland XP10, Korg X5 synth.
Yamaha has great sounds on the Psr540,640 and 740.
I am also the only Guitar Center to carry the Solton Keyboards. If I do not make the effort to demonstrate the X1 or X4, most people Walk right passed it !
Solton does have a feature called Dynamic Arranger......This allows the user to control the volumne of each part of the arrangement with the amount of pressure you apply with the left hand. Totally Cool and very Professional !
I have had my X1 now for over 18 months. I am still having a great time with it.
Take Care .... Dan O
Guitar Center in Towson Maryland 410 821 5200 or email oneils4@home.com
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#141665 - 11/23/00 01:17 AM Re: Yamaha PRO 9000 and touch sensitive arrangers
john smies Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/05/00
Posts: 1073
Loc: koudekerke, Holland.
DAN01,

That's of course the word I should have used:
DYNAMIC ARRANGER because that is exactly the
function missing from the latest toprange
keyboards from Yamaha and Technics.
In this respect the Rolands are even superior to the (very good) Soltons, in as much that yuo can also give negative values to each arpeggio etc.
I don't know about the Korg top range, no doubt Ilija could fill us in on this.
As many of you alreay remarked it is a very valuable tool in "expressiveness" and it beats me why it should be omitted from any top range keyboard let alone a keyboard carrying the tag PRO.
And you guys in the STates, have a nice
Thanksgiving (not really a festive day in
Europe) but then again you might need it with
all the "handcounting " you have to do......

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#141666 - 11/23/00 06:42 AM Re: Yamaha PRO 9000 and touch sensitive arrangers
Clif Anderson Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/00
Posts: 532
Hi John and TomTomSF

Thanks for bringing the dynamic arranger feature to our attention. Does anyone know if the VA-7 continues this feature?

Clif

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#141667 - 11/23/00 06:50 AM Re: Yamaha PRO 9000 and touch sensitive arrangers
Clif Anderson Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/00
Posts: 532
"PRO"

On the topic of what a "PRO" keyboard is. To me, what "PRO" means is that the keyboard is built to be reliable in the face of rough treatment and with cost versus sound-quality decisions made in favor of the latter. Often novel features are accepted first by consumers and only later by PROs, as Scott can give testimony to. (E.g., autoexposure in 35mm cameras, color viewfinders in video cameras, arranger features in keyboards). In short, when a manufacturer calls a keyboard "PRO", they should mean "you can bet your gig on this".

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#141668 - 11/23/00 07:36 AM Re: Yamaha PRO 9000 and touch sensitive arrangers
Dnj Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 36071
Loc: New Jersey
Hi Dan,
Your Solton X1/X4 video was great to watch and learn from. It has helped me alot especially that I went on stage giging 1 day after I purchased the X1 keyboard and have been enjoying it emensley night after night ever since. If anyone thinks speakers make a keyboard "NON PRO" they need their head examined. As I said in many posts, it's the Musician that is "non pro" not the "keyboard" (speakers or not) and especially NOT THE SOLTON X1 witch by the way has awesome speakers for monitors too!

take care,

Donny NJ

PS. Dan, how about a PT. II advanced X1/x4 Video some day also and a future SD-1 Video :>) also post a pic of yourself too? I also can't wait for your review on the new Solton SD-1 after it's release.



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 11-23-2000).]
_________________________
Korg Pa1000,LD Maui 28's G2 Mix,LD Maui 5,TC Voice Solo FX-150, Shure GLXD-24,EV ND767,
Audio Tecnica AT2035, Mixcraft Pro8 DAW, Alan & Heath ZED 6FX, Chauvet Mini Kinta lights..

“Be so good they can't ignore you”

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#141669 - 11/23/00 08:50 AM Re: Yamaha PRO 9000 and touch sensitive arrangers
George Kaye Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/24/99
Posts: 3292
Loc: Reseda, California USA
I would also like to mention that the generalmusic and the va rolands also have dynamaic arranger functions.
George Kaye
_________________________
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California
818-881-5566
www.kayesmusicscene.com

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#141670 - 11/23/00 08:08 PM Re: Yamaha PRO 9000 and touch sensitive arrangers
JCkeeys Offline
Member

Registered: 10/13/00
Posts: 584
Loc: St. James,New York,USA
The Korg I30 also has a Dynamic Arranger function. The volume is not ajustable like the Roland. You can assign specific accompaniment parts to be on while the left hand chord is held and turn off when the chord ifs released.

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#141671 - 11/24/00 08:51 AM Re: Yamaha PRO 9000 and touch sensitive arrangers
Clif Anderson Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/00
Posts: 532
Hi Scott

This must be a frustrating thread for you. It sounds like all high-end arrangers except those with rootless chords have dynamic arranger functions. I wonder if there is some reason for this?

Clif

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#141672 - 11/24/00 10:43 AM Re: Yamaha PRO 9000 and touch sensitive arrangers
Scottyee Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 10422
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, CA, US...
Hi Clif,
I guess I can't have everything (yet, anyway) (ha-ha-ha)! Perhaps Technics will eventually add the dynamic arranger feature (again) or some of the other manufacterers (Roland, Solton, Korg) might add "rootless chord recognition" in their "future" models (wishful thinking). I am certainly capable of playing chords in the more "basic chord" style which Roland, Solton, and Korg require and it sounds fine for more basic pop styles (country, folk, pop), but for a more professional 'pianistic' sound (full keyboard mode), I need an arranger keyboard which recognizes the 'rootless' chord playing style.
- Scott
_________________________

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#141673 - 11/24/00 11:15 AM Re: Yamaha PRO 9000 and touch sensitive arrangers
Clif Anderson Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/00
Posts: 532
Hi Scott

I was wondering whether you would use the dynamic arranger mode and pianist mode at the same time. It seems to me that the drum and bass do not necessary vary in volume (one way or the other) whenever the pianist does. But this is just speculation on my part and you would know. Would you want the dynamic arranger feature on when you were playing the jazz piano part?

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