Which do you prefer ?

Personally I feel like I am more in control with Roland's joystick..its easier too

DITTO !

Hands down "joystick" over the wheels any day.... I wish Yamaha would get with the program and just start adding these to their keyboards. The joystick allows you soooooo much more control when playing.. Especially when playing guitar voices.. With a joystick you can whip out one mean whammy bar effect.. I think Yamaha uses the wheels as an extra way to get money out of someone.. Like they do with the PSR-1000/2000... How hard would it have been to put a modulation wheel on the 1000....??? I've talked to several people who bought the 2000 because it also had the modulation wheel.. Roland is nice enough to even include this on their lower models.. Heck even the Casio WK1800/1600/1630, have modulation wheels. Yammie needs to start offering this, but we all know the second you see a joystick on a Yamaha keyboard we're gonna get nailed in the price area for the keyboard.. They'll advertise it as a new feature and hit your wallet...

Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 11-04-2002).]

Wheels have been around much longer than joysticks and go way back to the early days of synths like the Minimoog. I always prefer the wheels. There are times you like to be able to assign the controller wheel to a specific function (vibrato/leslie speed/distortion etc.) and leave it at a specific setting, which you cannot do with snap-back-to-center joysticks.

Pro,
I understand where you're coming from on that, but Roland got smart when they designed keyboards like the XP-60 and XP-80.. They both had joysticks, but there were also several sliders that you could assign differnt things to, which made it even better because you got the stick and the sliders (several too)

Squeak

I found the wheels and the joystick equally easy to use, though I must agree with the Pro about leaving the modulation wheel in the middle position for a certain amount of controllable effects.

I found, though, that ever since I switched to arranger keyboards, I use the pitch bend and modulation very little, as both of my hands are hitting the keys all the time. Yamaha had an interesting system in one of the early PSRs, where the modulation and pitch bend were controlled by the rollers under the keyboard, which you could control with a thumb or a heel of the hand, without taking the rest of the fingers of the keys. This to me is more practical. I would also vote for a breath controller input (like on DX-7), to allow a degree of control over the wind instrument sounds (especially for solo parts).

However, my main concern is with the fact that having the joystick or wheels on the left of the keyboard adds extra length, and hence, weight. I think that SD-1 has it right, locating the wheels above the keys.

IMHO, most arranger keyboardist are too busy playing to be doing real-time manipulations of individual voices, and hence, these controllers are useless anyway.

Regards,
Alex

IMO
The best: Roland stick
2-Korg Stick
3-Yamaha wheel
4-Technics wheel

Chico

I agree with EVERYTHING Alex points out here.

I've STILL not figured out how guys like Don Mason are able to trigger the pitch bend wheel, while simutaneously playing chord changes with the left hand, and playing melody (steel guitar) with the right hand. Pitch bend notes typically occur 'right at' the chord changes, so how is this even 'humanly' possible to achieve?

Anyway, I'm glad that the manufacters have chosen to now integrate instrument pitch bend & vibrato into the actual sound sample (some including up to 20 unique multisamples per sound) itself, triggered by note playing velocity, which, in my opinion, offers the arranger player the ability to more easily bring out an instruments many subtle nuances depending on 'the way' you play the actual note instead of having to constantly struggle with attempting to play chord changes while at the same time reaching for the pitch bend or vibrato wheel concurrently.

Tuff call and all good points....sometimes I like to leave a bit of modulation on sounds like a fretless bass and so the wheel is better other times, it's necessary to constantly vary it and the stick works better but has the downside of self centering.

The one thing I sure agree with, is trying to operate either real time with both hands busy on an arranger is quite a trick indeed.
jam on,
Terry

Here's a thought! Maybe Yamaha should add an extra foot jack and allow you to set one to sustain and use the other for things like pitchbend.. They do this on digital pianos, so why don't they add this to their arrangers so the player is able to keep both hands on the keyboard while bending notes.. I understand a regular footswitch won't work for this, but you can buy "piano style" sustain pedals for that... Just a thought...

Squeak

Hi Squeak,
Actually I do EXACTLY what you described above on my PSR2000.

Btw: how about posting a pic of your Lincoln Town Car. Call me kinky, but I'd really like to see a shot of the spacious sized trunk of your car. I bet you could EASILY fit the Yamaha 9000pro + quite a few other full sized boards (at the same time) as well, and with lots of room to spare, right?

The PSR-2000 allows pitch bending with a pedal??? Wow! That's cool! I didn't know this.. I'm ready to post some pics of the Lincoln.. I just need someone to help me out on that one.. I can get the pics on the computer but don't know how to post them on the forum.. If someone likes I can send them the pics and they can throw them up real quick.., and Scottyee... THAT TRUNK IS HUGE!!!!!!!! I'll take a shot of that so you can see how big it is.. There is soooo much room in that thing..

Squeak

Scott,
see? you have found the solution to your problems: get a Lincoln (...and a 9000 pro)!

Scott, I agree that it is difficult/impossible to use the pitch bend wheel effectively while playing with a style, as both hands are occupied. I do find it of great use in sequencing though -- with practice, it can greatly enhance guitars and wind instruments (though getting it right with the wind instruments is quite a bit more difficult than with the guitar).

I prefer the joystick.

Shiral

The easiest way I find to bring in vibrato for a solo voice is using aftertouch. That way you dont need to take your hands of the keys - just press a little harder. You can also edit voices on some machines to have delay vibrato which would only occur on long notes. I find this quite effective as long as you don't overdo it.

I also use a programmable footswitch for the pitchbend on my Ketron but I prefer the wheel for better control (speed and depth)

I agree that the use of these controls make a far more realistic representation of the accoustic instruments. I don't think it matters which method you use as long as you personally feel comfortable with it. Haven't Roland got some unique "V" controller that you wave your hand about in front of?

Keith

keith,
Roland does have that type of controller, but if you're going to take your hand off the board to wave it about.....then the wheel or stick are the same and with better control than the variphrase.
Terry

Aaaaaahhhh - so that's what variphrase is.
Thanks Terry

Keith

One of the difficulties on an arranger is to use pitch bend or modulation effects with both hands on the keyboard. The only chance I get is in between chord changes when I can quickly take my left hand from the accomp section and do a pre-pull back on the bend wheel. I like the Dynosteel guitar voice on the tyros which has a nice double string twangy bend effect if you strike the key very hard. I also remember on my old yamaha cx5m music computer and keyboard set up that I had a portamento feature called "fingered". You could play a mono lead voice normally but if you played legato it would bend up to the next note, very nice especially on bass tracks.
Rolands stick is nice for synth solos but (a) its too vunerable when transporting the keyboard (b) it doesnt offer much in the way of modulation control especially when trying to bend as well (c) one feels afraid to push it too far incase it snaps off!

I'd like 3 wheels (pitch, mod and assignable), a joystick and definitely a breath controller! It would also be nice to make use of aftertouch in the style area, already the tyros and 2000 features velocity controlled accompaniment level but how about using aftertouch to add more orchestration to the backing or to add a nice whoosh or break? Incidentally how do I trigger that drum solo on the tyros band style, haven't figured that one out yet!
A breath controller (just a simple blow j.. oops just realised what I was going to say!!! :-) Ahem a simple breath controller as they had on the old cs series, wow imagine that with the sweet flute, the sax's... come on yamaha, surely we can come up with a USB breath controller for the tyros!

Simon



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________________________
Simon G.K. Williams
simon@svpworld.com
Creative Music & Multimedia
http://www.svpworld.com
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Simon's statement here HIGHLIGHTS the point I was trying to make earlier in this thread, and that is:

"It's IMPOSSIBLE to realisticly emulate a guitar (pedal steel) when playing in arranger kb mode."

The critically important notes that require pitchbending occur 'RIGHT AT' the chord changes, when your left hand is also REQUIRED to play the chord changes. Am I missing something here? Is there a special 3 hand trick some of you guys (DonM and others?) are using to make it work? The only way I'm able to trigger pitch bend at the chord changes, when playing in arranger KB mode, is to assign a foot controller to trigger pitch bend. Unfortunately this is still a poor compromise, as this type of pitch bend is fixed, whereas using the pitch bend wheel, the pitch bend is variable, and the subtle shades of bending are controlable. I HOPE someone can provide a better arranger kb mode guitar pitch bend playing solution. Thanks in advance. - Scott

Ya gotta be quick changing chords. Think ahead!
DonM

I loved the Joy stick on the PA80, particularly in working the leslie effect on the organ sougns. I also had a Roland G800. After one week the spring on the joystick broke. I would have had to be without it for a couple of weeks, so I took it apart, cut the spring at the broken place, threw away that end, and put it back in. It worked, but it was pretty stiff!
DonM

Yeah it's pretty tough trying to use the wheels or the stick when playing an arranger.... That's why I sequence everything. I like to have my hands free to go nuts if I want to. I don't want to use my left hand for triggering chords when I want to solo.. I sequencer the composition, and then I have both my hands available to go crazy with solos.. This makes it easier for me...

Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 11-05-2002).]

Hey Don

But, quick isn't quick enough, especially if you need to trigger a pitch bend (with your left hand) right 'AT THE SAME TIME' as you're needing to play a new chord change (full chord, not with just one finger) with your left hand at the SAME time. It's not possible (in my book) to be at different places at the SAME time.

Don, if you're able to actually trigger pitch bend concurrently 'right on the chord changes', you must possess some kinda special magic up your sleeve. Care to share your secret?

Anyone else here able to do this? - Scott

Its so funny that we all play differently. I have never used the joystick to play with in all the years I'm performing......Until Now with the XD9. I use it to control the Leslie rotor speed when playing organ.

I have a hard enough time doing it even when there is no chord change on a solo.
Terry

Well of course you can't do it at exactly the same time, but you can learn to fake it pretty well. I think that if you could master bending with the footswitch it would be better.
DonM

Donny, you might want to use the wheel on some of your sax voices. I've achieved some good results twisting and bending the Growl Sax oon my XD9... sounds great. (We're talking old time R&R of course :-)

Glenn

glenn,

I am experimenting with the wheel as we speak. I guess its all in the technic and the sound you want to emulate. I play a mean growl sax but do it all with my fingers :>)

thanx

Terry,
Variphrase is not the D-Beam roland uses in the VA products and the older EM2000. the D-Beam is a controler, just like a mod wheel or pitchbend wheel. Anything you can do with those controllers you can do with the D-Beam. You just wave your hand over the D-Beam controller up and down or side to side and you can do things like pitchbend, vibrato, tempo up and down or even on and off of drum track, bass track, etc. The Variphrase is something completely different. It is being able to sample a voice or instrument and then play it on the keys of the keyboard, being able to play up and down the keyboard and not have the speed of the sample be altered like most samples do when you play say a full 5 fingered chord. In most samplers, the speed of the sample will get faster the higher the note, but on Variphrase, the speed stays the same while you play several pitches at once. Also, you can use the variphrase sample to play on the lower side of the split point while playing single or fingered chords as well, thus haveing the real voice play along with the style and it even syncs perfectly to the tempo without effecting the sample.
George Kaye
kaye's Music Scene

Don, I was actually beginnng to think that maybe you really 'did' have some sort secret trick up your sleeve to accomplish this feat. Oh well, back to the fixed on/off foot pedal method.

Come to think of it, it would be cool if there could be a foot pedal controler system devised similar to an expression pedal, in which you could control the 'amount' of pitch bend by how far you press the foot pedal down. Unfortunately the on/off type foot control pedal I currently use only allows you to produce a FIXED pitch bend amount (1/2 step, whole step, etc), which lacks the realisitic musical subtlties that variable pitch bending provides. - Scott

Hey Scott,
ever tried to use the pitch bend joystick with your left elbow? With a little practice, it works...

Some of the organs used to have a knee lever that you could use for pitch bend.
DonM

I use aftertouch to pitch bend with my G1000..