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[This message has been edited by domenik (edited 07-22-2005).]

What an offer! According to your web page the standard version cost 3400 Euro. Divided by 200 makes 17 Euro per style. It may take a good style programmer 2 days to complete a professional style. This results in a daily income of 8 Euro 50. You may have to look for programmers on a different planet, maybe the same one where you sell the instrument…

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[This message has been edited by domenik (edited 07-22-2005).]

It really does not take too long to make good sounding styles.

how do i contsct you dominick. I compose RnB and gosprl styles my email address is worth@moneyissues.co.uk

d

[This message has been edited by domenik (edited 07-22-2005).]

Domenik
I am interested in the Mediastation, but why are most of the audio and video demo download links on Lionstrac's site inoperative? Also, I have been unable to find a contact email address anywhere on the site to report the problem. Also your email address is not available in your profile. If Lionstracs wants to be a player in this market, it seems like you should be a little more available.

Hi,

Boule shit, Ohrenarzt...

Lionstracs is not yamaha, roland, etc...

It's a small company, with a good idea-concept-spirit-instrument to promote.

The best only thing to do, is to encourage this team and any effort that go to the same way.

Domenik & Team Lionstracs,

Good job. Any effort is a good effort.

Me.

d

[This message has been edited by domenik (edited 07-22-2005).]

d

[This message has been edited by domenik (edited 07-22-2005).]

As far as I remember at least the Ketron SD1 is able to change tempi without changing the pitch of the sampled drum-loops.
Lionstracs started shipping the mediastation around october 2004, but still no professional video- or audio-demo's or a place where the X-76 can be demoed or tested.
(many members asked for it many many times!)

Sure..... good ideas/concepts need support and encouragement, but we truly need some 'prove' of the development so far. Only screenshots, promises and BAD (I repeat BAD) video demos played by non-prefessional musicians (e.g. the "pianist") make me think this company will not survive.

Domenik, please hire some good musicians, spend some money and show us what your equipment can do in a good video. (at least stereo, 128kbps and without tons of background noise)

I truly like to like the X-76

Actually it is probably better if a demo is done by a non expert musician and keyboard user.

That way you don’t have to wonder if the demos have been tweaked in ways that a very average player would not be able to replicate (kind of like what probably is happening with the G70).

Due to the new concept in keyboards that lionstrac is introducing, I think more importantly than sound demos (since most of the sounds you can get as softsynths and demo other places), is how stable is the keyboard. Can it handle a lot of functions with out crashing? Is it easy to use? Would it be reliable for both studio and live work? Those to me seem to be the questions that lionstrac must answer if they hope to get a lot of sales.

Just my opinion.

d

[This message has been edited by domenik (edited 07-22-2005).]

Domenik,

If you have really been able to accomplish this, Bless you. I hope you have a winner on your hands. I believe that the one that can program the best version of this type of product will be the answer many of us have been looking for and that know longer want to be chained to the same old companies that think they know best what our instruments should sound like.

Good luck,

danny

Hi Domenik. I think that the only thing holding your product back is the very fact that no one has had a chance to demonstrate a fully loaded Liontrack product.Fully loaded meaning, great sounds of the soft synth type quality. Great arranger functions and styles comparable with Yamaha korg etc

The difficulty is that in theory your keyboard "can be" literally whatever type of keyboard you want it to be without the normal constraints that the usual hardware driven keyboards have. But.....

If you want to sell these units you HAVE to demonstrate one with some of the soft synth sound modules loaded on the keyboard. You have said the following

"Just go there to EMC: http://www.emc-software.de/
buy the BIG package: 80 styles for 49 Euro, there have a lot available...
Import one styles to the sequencer and ADD the wav audio file, thats all!

Around here in the net, you can find GOOD styles for less 5 US dollars...
You can use your good styles too, have only to add the audio wav and IF you want to delete the Midi drums traks.
One guy here, in this system had programmed about 20 styles in one day."

So demo one of your keyboards with some of these good styles , using some of the best vst pluggins on the market!! Let the buyers Actually hear how great the sounds and styles can sound together ! I would start with the most critial sound to any keyboard player, the piano.

Someone asked about the sounds onboard the keyboard and you answered.....

"About the sounds..please....do NOT insist to asking the sound quality...please...
IF the NI B4 is not enough, you have installed more 70 free VST, synths, effects... you are allowed to LOAD any type of GIGA library, Bosendorfer 290, 1.9Gb data, Stainway...all wht you like...do you waant tell me that all the others sounds company sell shitty GIGA sounds?? Then you have only to change it...load all what you want."

I dont know if you have anysales people working for you but that was a poor answer. If your potential customers are enquiring bout the sound quality of the unit then they are giving you "buying signals" . Respond accordingly. They want to hear the sound quality , so purchase some of the best available soft synth sounds on the market and demonstrate it on the keyboard.Noone wants to purchase an instrument on its "potential" usefulness . I too really want to support your product as i am getting more than a little cheesed off with the usual minor annual increment in the big 4 keyboard company offerings every year that are marketed as the "next innovation" when really they have simply decided to use 5 year old technology in a slightly different way to milk more money from their loyal customer base.

But your liontracks unit does not have any kind of track record and for people to buy into what it can do , you cant just talk about what it can potentially do, you need to show it!!

PS noone wants a DVD player on their keyboard. its not a function any musician will use and demonstrating that works AGAINST you. Serious musiscians want a serious music making machine. If i want to watch a film, i go to the movies.

You have my best wishes and support for this product.

Spalding

in reply to spalding...YES YES YES, totally 120%agree with you...if we could just actually hear sounds rather than hyperbole, it would go a long way to helping us buy one of these..i too am so sick and tired (hey!theres a good line for a lyric!!!lol) of 'board manufacturers espousing the "latest thing" when it is just the latest "reworking" with mebbe some DSP EFX thrown in of a 5 or 10 year old sound..software synths and samplers ARE the cutting edge and have shown more innovation and improvement in the past year than most of the hardware boys in the past ten years.
And that goes for ALL hardware manufacturers..even the so called OASYS..its just re-working (in some of its operations) of synth stuff we were doing in 1986, its just flashed up a lot more....So come on Lionstracs give us some meat and less gravy!!

peace, out

Domenik is 'loudly' advertising on Synthzone for more than a year and now starts a recruitment campagne as well ? ... I think this is SPAM !

Please try advertising on the Lionstracs-site, sell some MS's and let (potential) customers discuss here what they think of it.
If they think it is a good product... the members will do the promotion automatically.

Many forum members gave Domenik free excellent advise on 'How to promote his product' (recording, the use of real musicians... etc.)

d

[This message has been edited by domenik (edited 07-22-2005).]

What is the US price for one of these keyboards?

Squeak

d

[This message has been edited by domenik (edited 07-22-2005).]

That's not a bad price domenik. That puts it right in the area of the Tyros, and close to the Korgs.

Squeak

d

[This message has been edited by domenik (edited 07-22-2005).]

Domenik,

Please contact me directly via e-mail regarding the Mediastation. My e-mail link is listed in my profile. Thanks!

Lee

d

[This message has been edited by domenik (edited 07-22-2005).]

Domenik,

Just a suggestions: I think to make a good impact on this community, you should loan the finished boards to well known and respected people in this community like George Kaye, DanO, Scott, Dave, etc. Let them try it for couple weeks each.

If your product is good, they will back you up and you will make a lot of sales in this community alone.

What do you think ?

Lukitoh has a good suggestion there. Let DanO, George, ect. give one of these units a test run. Also there are members that live near their stores who will stop by to see the unit as well. A lot of people actually visit the Zone to see what's hot and what's not.

Squeak

d

[This message has been edited by domenik (edited 07-22-2005).]

Could you please explain this a little more please.

Are you saying that you are looking for programmers to basically transfer Styles into individual audio tracks using external “non mediastation” sounds.

Like…. I basically get my PC to play the styles through my Triton Studio and I then record each part of that performance as an audio track that is to be assembled on the Mediastation as an Audio Style.

If so, then I maybe interested in this offer.

But, what’s the story with the copyrights on the styles your asking people to convert. Under copyright law it would be illegal for anyone to purchase a style and convert it to another format.

Kind Regards.
Sharp.

No he wants you to program original styles from scratch. But it is a good question regarding the copy write of original patterns that we have created and given to the mediastation. I had not considered this. Who actually owns the copywrite Domenik ?

d

[This message has been edited by domenik (edited 07-22-2005).]

Spalding,
I assume you mean 'CopyRIGHT' ?

Domenik,
As far as I know EVERY piece (song/midifile/style) is copy-righted, so "...copyright there?" : YES !!

Officially people are allowed to do what they like with stuff they PURCHASED before.
The stuff becomes 'yours' after you payed for it. (The way you put is is wrong IMHO)

QUOTE :
[2) Fortunatly, exist LINUX, open source, GPL and you are allowed to OPEN/EDIT/REWORK/SAVE all what you want. Please, read again how is work the Linux GPL license...]

Comparing LINUX (open source) and music- styles or songs referring to copyright is absolutely incorrect!

QUOTE :
[3) Mediastation have the OWN format, OPEN and you can see in each style folder ALL the .MID and .Wav files, so..totally opened and system that everybody can see and edit ALL.]

The FORMAT in which data is stored, does not change anything to copyright!

QUOTE:
[4) you can take one original midi or styles file, EDIT/REWORK it, change all the Programm/variation/Volume/Note and tuning for the Mediastation. For this you are ALLOWED because then you get a different file]

Again : It does not change anything to copyright!

QUOTE:
[5) We DONT sell media: midi, styles, Mp3, we give back ALL for FREE under LINUX GPL license,where you can download it and make all what you want. So...with OUT profit you are totally free fo do what you want and you do NOT have any problem with the Law]

You are saying : "Use an open source operating system, change the storage format.... and ALL authors see copyrights vanish, completely legal !"

Please be realistic Domenik, what you say is very wrong, you should know better!

QUOTE:
[If i'm wrong, mean that all the others Linux user are in the wrong way and Illegally too.. like IBM, Yamaha, Korg....
all they use Linux Open Source too..]

YES you are wrong:
LINUX itself is open source and free, but the key issue here is MUSIC, not the OS.




[This message has been edited by Roel (edited 06-17-2005).]

d

[This message has been edited by domenik (edited 07-22-2005).]

Yes there is.
The original songs are the copyright of the author, and all midi files hosted for free on the net are hosted are illegal in one way or another.

If you didn’t write the original song, then you cannot post it on the net in any format unless you pay royalties or have permission for the original author of the song.

This not only applies to midi files, it also applies to Styles.



Not true. The copyright remains.
All that chances is that nobody knows your breaking the law if you play they data back privately at home. However, since this is a musical instrument you intend on using the styles in, which will be played in public. Then your back to square one again. It’s all illegal.



No matter what you do to the files, they remain the copyright of the original author. That’s standard copyright law.



I’ll give you an example of how wrong that is.

Lets say Madonna releases a new CD. If I convert that to Mp3 file, then according to you it’s now my data and I can sell it or give it away for free.

See my point ?. Converting data from one format to another is not a loophole in the system. You still don’t in anyway have any right to the material you converted. Uploading it would be totally illegal.



I’m sorry but now that In fully understand what your talking about, you are indeed very wrong. Midi Files and Styles hosted on the Net for free or pay for download are not open source. TO convert the data to another format also does not make it you own in anyway. This not only applies to midi files, styles and other types of performances. It also applies to actual sounds. For example… it would be totally illegal for me to buy a Piano sound in AKAI format, modify it, then convert it to a different format with the intent of offering it as a free download, or a pay for download.

The original material would have never been mine to begin with, so therefore it would be totally illegal for me to do anything at all with it.

The only way I can see you being allowed to do what you are asking here is if you get someone to actually write 200 original styles for start to finish.

Kind Regards.
Sharp.

d

[This message has been edited by domenik (edited 07-22-2005).]

Am I right when saying Lionstracs delivers an arranger without styles? Customers will have to convert them from other brand-machines?
In my view converted stuff never sounds as good as on the original machines.

Imported/converted styles are easy to recognize by well trained ears.
I expect Lionstracs to get HUGE copyright problems with Roland, Yamaha and others.

I do not understand the 'short distance' view of Domenik..... sorry for that.

d

[This message has been edited by domenik (edited 07-22-2005).]

Why delete this thread Domenik?
It became clear to me (and others) what's your view and how you think.
Still I think you are not correct in some of them.
Another remarkable point is Lionstracs puts most effort in building the hardware/OS and only very few in styles. Styles and softsynth prices come on top of the unit prices.

btw. 'ordinary' brands like Ketron, Yamaha, Roland develop own styles.....they do not import/convert. EMC Styleworks is for 'home-use'. Professional brands do not sell converted styles as 'own' product.

I know it's slightly different, but I've purchased several professional drum loops on CD's for use with samplers, etc. The license agreement states that they cannot be resold in any shape or form as loops on a new sample CD, but can be used freely within commercial compositions, as long as they are altered in some way and are combined with other sounds/instruments (i.e. are not used solely in a track and unchanged).

Doesn't really relate to styles I guess.... It does say that no matter what, the audio loops remain the property of the creator. However, if you change them in some way (i.e. with effects, reverse order, etc), put them into a song with other loops/sounds, you're free to sell that song commercially.

Weird.

Hi Domenik.

The main reason why I’m questioning you on the copyrights is because I’m a professional sound designer/ Studio guy. I design and sell my own samples CD’s, and programs for Korg workstations. I have even worked for Korg Inc as a sound designer on the Triton Extreme where I designed programs, Combi’s and a Demo song for them.

Since day one I have been very interested in the Mediastation because I do believe you have a very unique product on your hands and as a sound designer I would love to be apart of this major / exciting advancement in technology. But… as a private contract worker I’m also bound by copyright laws, and if I break the copyrights when working for a Company, I’m the one that gets in trouble, not the company that hired me.

So as you can see.. I’m more than qualified to produce extremely high quality work. I’m also extremely interested in the Mediastation. But I’m not convinced that if I where to convert and modify styles that I would be copyright clean.

I already have all the tools needed to produce everything you need. I have a Studio fully of the best gear available. I even have the Universal edition of EMC and much more at my disposal.

However something still tells me that this is not 100% legit.



Yes your 100% right, BUT Emc is sold on the basis that you are going to convert your own styles. Not the copyrighted factory styles from one manufacture to another. I own the largest Korg support website on the Internet, and I can assure you that Korg would not legally allow you to convert anything they made to a different format even if I laided down lots of extra data over the tracks.

Kind Regards.
Sharp.

Hello Dear Musicians,

Instead of talking about mediastation, have a look on WERSI !

This are Keyboards-Organs with Quality !
www.wersi.de

Medimax,
Windows can operate very stable in a dedicated (fit for purpose) application. It is the 'shit' that is running what sometimes causes problems.

I took a look/listen at wersi.... and you are right. It seems they got stuck in the late-eighties

Hi,

Windows's not very stable when you use it for a long period (ex. as server, memory lack). Linux is far more stable & efficient & low cost.

Me.

I own a Wersi Abacus Duo Pro and can tell you from first hand experience Windows crashing on the Wersi isn't something that's ever happened to me and it isn't likely. The key to Wersi running Windows and it being stable is that the OS has been optimized for the Wersi. As long as you install software that is made for and optimized to work in the Windows environment, there won't be conflicts. Conflicts in software setups can wreak havoc on any OS.

I've seen far too many people try and run 50 programs on their PC only to see it crash. They blame Windows saying its "crap"' but the culprit is probably third party software that has bugs in it or the computers lack of processing speed and memory. You wouldn't try and pull a 12,000 pound trailer with a Yugo so why try and run numerous software programs on your computer if it doesn't have the speed and memory to run those programs?

medimax, roel is totally correct, if windows (particularly XP) could run by itself it is a stable as ANY other op system, BUT because it has been around so long microsoft have to ensure backwards compatibility with thousands of programs (a lot of which have very dubious programming skills behind them) and it is THESE programs that cause windows to shut down...but this is not a PC forum so i will leave it there..believe me i could go on (as could roel i suspect ) but "time and place"...

peace, out

Domenik, when and where is this keyboard going to be available in australia? we can't buy from europe or US coz of power supply problems (lol just ask behringer!) ...second, i agree with sharp on the copyright issue, i write and produce midi files, songs, and am now attempting writing styles, and the intellectual copyright always remains with the author..now someone could re-arrange that data, and yes it is almost impossible to tell, (unless the author has certain embedded material in the file)..so in the REAL world thousands of people breach copyright all the time, it is illegal, prob immoral, but it happens, and if i read your posts correctly domenik, you do too...getting buyers to do their own styles nicely does away with lionstracs having to 1. expend time on style creation 2. worrying about any copyright breaches by using 3rd party styles.

i suspect domenik already knows this...after all he isnt a silly person, he a has assisted in (and i dont know to what level) the creation of a great concept and possibly great keyboard, i am SURE he understands copyright and its implications fully please dont misunderstand domenik, i understand where you are coming from, personally i dont agree, but the commercial side of me does understand your modus operandi..l8r
dennis
peace, out

d

[This message has been edited by domenik (edited 07-22-2005).]

Hi domenik,

I think (perhaps I'm wrong) but with you main product, your team don't make lots of money (in regard of work done).

So I think it's normal that, for the moment, you can't dedicate as much as money you wish for styles. Your offer (a mediatation for complete set of styles) must be taken as "It's a fun & great project to participate ! Come on...". At least, I see it like that.

People have to consider that Mediastation is a big thing. Not only an arranger but also a window on future. It can make so different things...

IMO, it would be interresting for a big company that own styles to help you. It would be definitly a low cost investisment (a great bet).

Your choice about linux is the best choice. Because people that know IT, know that.
Everybody use Windows, because it's the easiest OS to install vs Linux. But the things are changings (mentalities too). Linux will become, in few years, the next big thing (OS) for common people. Linux is reliable, fast, "almost as easily installable as Windows", etc...

When I throw a look on Mediastation's topics, I see that, at the end, you are disapointed by reaction of people. And often, I agree with you.

Like I said before, the mediastation don't be taken as other products that seems to be similar. But as an adventure.

Great work ! Go on !

Me.

d

[This message has been edited by domenik (edited 07-22-2005).]

Domenik, I would love to qualify, to recieve a Mediastation X-76 , to try out and post my review...

I would also be willing to load my style library in your "loaner", while in my posession...and when[or if,,,I purchase it from you] I return it to you,I am sure I will leave the styles on board..This way you can delete them as you wish..

So what do you say...A trial unit for one of your old dealers?..Fran Carango, Specialties Ltd.

to domenik, i repeat the question , what's the deal with units coming to australia? and personally, i don't give a "rats" whether it has styles or not, as you would say that is my problem not yours.
thanks
dennis

[This message has been edited by manic2257 (edited 06-19-2005).]

Hi Domenik.



I did NOT accuse you of anything.
But what I will do now is actually quote YOU on your own posts.



I can’t believe you don’t see anything wrong with that.

Or how about this….



So suggesting that those about to work for a free Mediastation should purchase copyrighted styles and convert them so you can host them for free is supposed to be legal ?.

Sorry, but I really don’t understand any of your logic. You are most certainly skating on thin ice here and just screaming out to be nailed on copyright law. Telling people that they can purchase copyrighted material and modify it heavily and then stick their own name to is simply crazy.



This is the ONLY option and you should really not try your look asking people to convert copyrighted material in the hopes you will get away it.

This is all I have to say in this subject so I wish you good look. Just do me one favour. Talk to someone about the issues I have brought up because I promise you I’m right. If you convert copyrighted material in the hopes nobody will recognise the style from it’s original copyrighted version. You WILL get nailed.

Regards.
Sharp.

Hi Domenik,
You can always send me a mediastation with out styles I really don't care for onboard styles. as long as to tools are there for me to make my own styles. Afterall, I don't want nor expect a keyboard with midi files.

Whether the musical part of styles are copyrightable is a hot topic.
There is a school of thought that contends most styles to be infringing on copyrights. Most of the styles are taken from copyrighted songs (just look at the name of some of them)


Then you have to ask yourself, can you really copyright a style or genre.

it's wider than purely musical copyright, in the EC you can use unfair competition law against a competitor who takes data (styles) from your product and uses it in his own - no need for musical copyright law. This succeeded a few years ago when one of the major manufacturers found their styles modified and used on another product.

Domenic:

I've been watching your website for the past couple of years. Lionstacs development of the Mediastation doesn't seem to be any further along than it was 2 years ago.

Frankly, I think Lionstac has "bitten off more than they can chew". In other words, the project is too big for them to handle at this time.

Most keyboard players would not be willing to invest $3000 U.S. dollars in a keyboard from novist manufacturer. Lionstac must develop brand name recognition and a reputation for service in order to earn the customer's trust. Lionstac has not done this as yet.

Lionstacs should first endeavor to produce a simple, scaled-down version of the mediastation, and sell it at a very good price to value ratio. Then, provide top-notch service to every customer.

Selling these less expensive keyboards would provide the money needed to invest in the development of a true top-end arranger keyboard and would go a long way to developing the trust of the keyboard-playing community.

Regards,
Steve

Steve , Domenik has produced earlier Media stations for at least five years ..

d

[This message has been edited by domenik (edited 07-22-2005).]

d

[This message has been edited by domenik (edited 07-22-2005).]

d

[This message has been edited by domenik (edited 07-22-2005).]

Hi Domenik,

You consider me to be your good friend.. thanks for that!

Well I took a look/listen to both the video and piano.mp3 and (of course) some comments :

a. The video quality is much better than before, well done !

b. The audio however still is poor and I keep wondering WHY don't you guys use the camera's stereo line-in instead of the cheap electret-microphone on the camera ?
Because of the 'auto-gain adjustment' the dynamics are eliminated completely.

c. The German player knows how to play, but his English is SOOO poor. (Early Boris Becker accent multiplied by 10 )

d. The MP3 is clipping pretty often.
(Unacceptable.... even for a beginning amateur)

e. A few times I noticed a few seconds of TDK-alike tones coming from the MS. (MP3 at 1:45 right before the counting voice starts)
In the video the German also notices the tones and seems to be surprised as well ?

I'm not in the position to TELL you what to do or what not to do (as you pointed it) but in my view the mediastation is =

A more or less standard PC with Linux OS and 3 input interfaces frontpanel, keyboard and display.
To make it sound like a B3, you have to purchase Native Instruments B4. I hope you do realize you cannot modify the program B4 a bit, save it to your disk and then say : "It is free of copyrights!"

Well my friend, I'm still disappointed in Lionstracs, good luck for the future..... and in a few months my new 'baby'will arrive : The Yamaha Tyros-2

Yeah I know... I know it sounds terrible and a plastic toy
but Yamaha does make great demo video's and MP3's that's the difference ! (Michel Voncken, Peter Baartmans, both Dutchies)



[This message has been edited by Roel (edited 07-15-2005).]

Hello ROEL,

now with your last comment, you have shown, how stupid YOU are.

Right....Domenico has recorded the video with a normal digital video-camaera.
But....after this, for audio he has made an MP-3 file and converted it by a convert-program.

OK...sure....sorry that the MP-3 audio-file contains some clips........but this came by only the convert-program.....ok....sorry!

But.........
it's a big pity, that MEDIASTATION, such an fine instrument, goes into the wrong hands like YOU......with a stupid mind and brain!!!

OK....feel free.........
and go with your YAMAHA (VOLKSWAGEN type, like a TRABANT for all peoples)......

FREEEEEEEE with YOUR
MEEEEEEEEEEEEEGAAAAAAAAAAAAAVOICE.........
booooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

muhahahahahahahaha!!!!!

Nice to meet you Boris!

btw. It's a shame clipping files are published. If they are it shows how a company operates.

Don't worry, this machine will NEVER get into my hands

[This message has been edited by Roel (edited 07-15-2005).]

k

[This message has been edited by domenik (edited 07-22-2005).]

Well for what its worth , i like what i am hearing from the mediastaion. Its hard to tell the true sound quality from the hand held cam mic but even through this, it sounds very good.

Domenic although the audio tracks sound very good it is hard to tell what sounds are coming from the keyboard and what sounds are coming from the audio track. Its almost like a kareoke type function and whilst might be great fun and can be of great benefit for set performances it does not illustrate how versaite the instrument is on the fly. But there is no doubt in my mind that it sounds very promising.

The drums sound a little thin though and lack any real punch or definition. Again it could be just down to the way it has been recorded through the Cam mic.

The jazz demo is excellent and you play very well!! Sounds like a live band for real!!Again though if thats just an audio file it limits where you can take a song and thats why i want to see what the arranger function can do and how accurately it follows chords.

Just listened to the arranger r/b organ video. You are playing your socks off and the organ sounds great but the backing sounds very GM sounding.Tis is a weakness. Are the samples that you use for example the bosendorfer etc accessible for the sounds used on the arranger backing function as they dont sound the same. Overall like i said this sounds very promising

Hi all,
I don't have much to offer from a musician's point of view, I have no experience as a gigging musician, I have no playing dexterity, and I haven't played with many keyboards.
Probably any keyboard in the >$800 range will be absolutely stunning for me, so Tyros, Genesys, G-70, PA1X, Mediastation etc etc, are dream machines well above my musical limits.

So what do I have to say here?

I work in sales, have been working in sales for more than 10 years now. Retail, and corporate. Retail meaning you have to convince everyday folks that what you sell is better that what the others are offering, corporate meaning talking to managers doing the same thing. So I can't talk about music so much, but I can talk about sales.

Domenik, I totall respect your efforts, and your products. I wish you success, infinite riches, and the ability to look back when you are old, and say "I have achieved things". But I have to point out that IMHO you have to get a sales person to represent the company, at least in this forum.

Why?
You said that your background is technical, and that you have been in the field for many years. That is good, but there is a disadvantage to that. What you create as a tech is your brainchild, you love it, and you are naturally protecting your child from every bad person or bad opinion in the planet. The problem is that you act as a normal parent, can't see the (sometimes good, sometimes bad) meaning every opinion has, you seem too busy protecting that child. Techs do that a lot.

Why don't you try to do things a sales person would:

People ask for a video, then try to give them a video. If it is not satisfactory for them, don't bitch about, give them a better video. Do they need better .mp3's, give them better mp3's. Are they clipping? Then make some that don't clip. The finished Mediastation will not clip or distort, so why the demo should? You want to convince them, right?

I think it better to avoid telling everyone here how dreadful your competitors sound. That will not convince them. What will convince them is how YOU and YOUR product sound. Do they sound good? If yes, people here may soon be looking in their pockets for money to buy a MS. But thay won't pay you to hear your opinion on how boring Yamaha's sounds and features are. They have their own opinions, already, and they got them for free.

Observe what other sales persons or store owners do here. Someone asks George Kaye for advice, that will probably won't profit him this time and George answers. He may not get any money at one time, but being professional and truthful, will earn him more in the long end. Same for WDMcM, he is helpful to everyone asking. By the way, check this out: http://www.generalmusic.us/Media/GenEnsforweb.wmv It seems to me that a video like that, with enough sound clarity, would close some mouths around here. It takes effort yes, needs 2 cameras and some stiching, but if you want to impress...

Try to think of people here as potential girlfriends.... you want to befriend them, so they can invite you for a drink. You don't have to tell lies to get invited, and you can't just say "I am a stud like you have never seen baby, all the others are wussies" and expect them to believe you. You have to do things the way they are meant to be done. Both parties will be having a good time.

A better demo for the guys here, will be as flowers for a girl. Isn't it worth it? You'll end up on top in the end.

Again, please have in mind that I absolutely respect you, your products, your company and your efforts here. All the above is no personal grudge, just my observations and recommendations, you may like them you may not. Anyone can comment, agree or disagree.

P.S.
1) Ladies here, PLEASE don't bash me. I mean good.
2) Domenik, Mediterranean hot temperament is not an excuse, at least not for me. I am Greek, I know.
3) Better English, written or spoken, have never hurt anybody, especially if you are talking to Americans. Like it or not, it is THE universal language. If you can't exactly express what you mean in English, get someone else who can to do it for you.

[This message has been edited by trident (edited 07-15-2005).]

Trident,
Excellent post ! .... You ARE a great salesman.

It seems to me that domenik needs two things - a good lawyer (to explain copyright law as it exists in the US and Europe - he has a good chance of losing his company if he practices what he preaches) and a professional PR man to repair the damage his blowhard ranting has done to his company's reputation. If it is true (and after reading his postings it IS hard to make out the truth from the hyperbole) that he is shipping 400 units a year, these are things that his company can afford (along with better videos and mp3's - come on, now, if you can design a keyboard, you should be able to figure out how to convert high-res audio to a quality mp3!!).

If anybody else from domenik's company is reading this forum - PLEASE, for your own good, lock him back in the lab and put a professional in charge of your PR!

Domenik,

I agree with you 100% that LINUX is the
best and most superior OS for many reasons.
Please keep up the excellent work and don't
let a few negative remarks make you think that you are going down the wrong path.
Anyone who can't see the path of hardware based keyboards evolving closer to software based is truly behind the times.

I think the Oriental community is absolutely interested in arranger functions, but they want something ready to turn on and play.
Ironically, the problem with have so much flexibility, is that too many choices just
intimidate many people(myself included).

If for some reason your complete keyboards
do not sell well, I think you should offer
the "guts" as PCI cards to be run with LINUX
on PCs. Much like Emu did with their samplers
(but not Linux).

Domenik
Well at last I can say you finally have some reasonably decent demos up on your site. I watched all the video X76 examples and compared to what you had up before, these are a 100% improvement.

For me it will still take seeing one live in person and getting to play with one. I really too have been interested in your whole concept and approach since the beginning.
Terry



[This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 07-16-2005).]

By the way, and to Domenik's honour, the Mediastation is quite an interesting product.
the idea is excellent, and I am convinced that you can somehow "sculpt" the product to suit your needs, and I think it will be a nice offering. The price will lower itself as sales grow.

Come on Domenik, get those demos running.
Suggestions:

1) Connect the outputs from the MS to the IN of the camera, don't use the on-camera mic. You probably know how to do it ang get a nicer sound, WAY better than me.

2) If your demo guy cannot express himself in clear English, then let him do what he does well. Just let him play and make sure he is not looking bored. Michel Voncken looks equally "happy" or "positive" regardless which product he plays, be it the most expensive product or a cheap product for beginners.

3)Once you record the guy, get someone with clear English or maybe you, to do a voice over. Make sure the voice does not drown out the keyboard, you want users to be able to hear it. It doesn't matter so much if your accent is bad, because you can always rehearse before, and even record the voiceover in pieces. That way, the player is not stressed to do many things at once, and you can exactly describe what is going on, overcoming cameras's or video's deficiencies.

4) Make sure the voiceover covers what the player is doing, and also focus on what the BENEFITS are for the customers. You can say "we have 32 bit sampling and 1/480ppq resolution in the sequencer that nobody has" or you can say, "your pre recorded music will sound its best through out advanced 32 bit sound system and we have enough resolution on the sequencer to capture the tiniest nuances of your playing". Which one you prefer? (It sounds a little cheesy, but you get the idea.)

5) I would love to see/hear a demo of 2-3 popular songs played like a potential customer would play them, like "a bar patron tipped and requested a song." That way you can be creative on the playing, and you can show how easy is to operate the instrument, select the voices, select the style, etc. I wouldn't like to hear Mozart, I'd better hear "It's now or never". (this is only MY opinion of course).

I am waiting, either for your bashing, or for your video. I hope the best for you.

Theodore

Hi Domenik.
If you a go to Paris(France) I can make for you a good sound in your videos. It's not so difficult ! Just record the sound directely in the computer, and mix it with the voice of the player. You can even do it on your linux keyboard !! and after you have the good sound, put it on the video. They should be synced... If you want help, I can give you.

Dear Domenik;

Ciao. I have a few questions regarding you new video demonstrations. Is the X-76 being used in the video the standard version or the expanded version with the 64 Mb GM/GS board? If it is the 24 Mb GM/GS data do you have any videos playing the new higher quality 64 Mb GM/GS sounds? Since it is these sounds that will impact the quality of arranger styles, and Midi playback.

1)Do you have more videos demonstrations of the arranger section of the Keyboard? Something that showcases, the quality of various styles as well as the Intros/Ending and variations of the syles.

2)Can the VST & Linux patches be used in the arranger/style sections?

3) Can you explain the new Midi-audio arranger function? How does it work?

4)Can you verify these facts--128 GM sounds ( which are 64 Mb of data?), 738 enhanced variation tones ( what are these? how many Mb of data), 68 Lionstracs sounds ( what size are these patches --?Mb) all available in GM and GS formats.

Thank-you for your answers in advance
Regards;
BlkNotes

Hi Domenik,


With its materialization from vapourware statements, promises and *lies* sprinkled with the words '116dB','NEW PCI sound card 4 envy24 chips 32 channels!!!', and embarrasing demos (some featuring stolen sounds), the mediastation is inevitably nothing more than a low-quality PC, a low-quality keyboard and a control surface packed together (oh yes and a totally useless low-quality early 90s style wavetable synth loaded with many unlicensed sounds). Prominent software parts (such as linuxsampler) can be obtained freely by anyone since they are open source and can be decoupled from the mediastation very easily (or with no effort at all). I don't need to buy your product to use linuxsampler, synaddsubfx, rezound, ardour, jack, VST, etc. I can get them for free. Vienna Symphonic Library, NI B4 are even worse to list, since I have to pay serious money for them anyway, and I would not even allow you to post demos featuring their sounds if I were in charge. It creates a false marketing statement.

So for 3000 or so euros, I get some already obsolete hardware, a useless hardware "synth", some software which I can lawfully get for free, and a control surface (You still include that webcam with the pro model?). Oh yes, and I also get 116 dB's worth of false technical 'subject-to-change' specs And as an extra added value, I get the comforting tought that I'm not using Windows, and I'm not using some embedded dont-have-a-future plastic toy that could not make into your 'comparation' chart.

Well, I think you should pack up your soldering gun and other things and go back to the ol' drawing board instead than to pollute this fine forum and inducing discomfort in respectable people.

In my life, I've seen some pretty strange people (including a CEO of a large company who enjoyed farting loudly in public), but you never cease to amaze me again and again. You are the most arrogant, childishly behaving, self-embarrasing person I've ever seen. I've seen 4 year olds behaving more grown-up than you. And I mean this seriously and without sarcasm. Anyone who reads your posts (and too bad you deleted a great deal of embarrasing big ones on lionstracs.com) will become absolutely certain that you must be an elementary school dropout or a psycho asylum runaway. I seriously think that you are a danger to society. Seriously.

In the past I've seen you saying very discomforting words to a friend of mine about his future accomplishments in life, so in turn let me bring my whishes to you about the mediastation:

1. I hope it becomes an utter failure with no sales and plenty lawsuits from existing customers and copyright owners of stolen material. I deeply recommend setting yourself on fire in that event.

2. I hope it will become an immense success and realizing this, the big guys (Roland, Yamaha) will also get on the linux-workstation bandwagon 'stealing your idea' probably producing and flooding the market with far more superior products, with a lot of value and features you can't possibly match. You will disappear from the market and your name soon forgotten. I deeply recommend setting yourself on fire in that event.

I think these two whishes will make these things even to what you said.
A big thumbs down for you, Domenik.

Welcome back Pali...
I had missing you a lot!!
Now ppl here can see again how much stupid you are after long time ago...
You still have to develope in your PIC Barby processor..please..don't change product...this is only that you can do ( maybe)

cheers

Dear Nigel-administrator
PLEASE::: REMOVE/DELETE me from this forum!
I had ENOUGH for so STUPID people like the last post!
I just sent you one official email!
I will NEVER come back, read and type in this forum.

Regards
Domenik

Domenic and Lionstracs just have my completely full agreement off the mediastation X-76 keyboard. It´s just the keyboard tecnologie that the player´s are waiting. I work with GIGA files at some year´s. This project it´s perfect, just believe-me

kevlar,
what it was all about? Some kind of personal revenge thing?
I haven't seen behaviour like this since elementary school.
I too "whish" that this forum continues without that kind of comments, no matter who is in the receiving end
Theodore

domenic do NOT let this opinion of Kevlar who according to himself has been around for a long time ,he has made 1 post in all of the time that he has been on the sidelines offering NO constructive help what so ever,you on the other hand have put forward 106 posts in total,and we have gotten to know you,even though it has taken a long time to get your boards to the finishing stage there is still a lot of people who want to see you succeed,stick with it you are bound to get knock backs but if your product will be as good as you say a lot of your competition are going to try to put you down,you expected it,now go forward and SHOW WHAT YOU CAN DO ,mike

Kevlar i have no idea what your problemis but you cannot accuse someone of being childish and then launch into the kind of verbal assault that you did. THATS CHILDISH.

Domenik dont leave the forum. I am keen to support anyone that is trying to come up with something new and different to the usual keyboard manufacturers offerings. Keep doing what you are doing and ignor the abusive people that sometimes post here. I have said it before i like what i am hearing about the mediastation and sure there are some thing that need to be worked out but it is all very promising

Add me to the list of Domenik supporters, please don,t leave!

------------------
Roy-Andrè

Hi Domenik.

I would urge you to reconsider and not leave.
It’s good to talk.

My concerns above where genuine for you regarding copyright on the Style issue. So please don’t take it that I was getting on to you. I was not. I was actually worried and concerned about what you are building here because I thinks it’s fantastic.

The Mediastation is well ahead of its time and thats main reason why I was so interested in this. I agree 100% with pretty much what you have been saying about it’s features. So much so that as a professional musician that I would like to take part in this project in some way free of charge.

If you believe that the sounds are within this workstation, I can most certainly write a demo song that will show them off.

Kind Regards.
Sharp.