Hello, just a general question about polyphony in a keyboard. I know that a lot of high end keyboards have 128 polyphony, but I'm just wondering by having more polyphony, does that make the keyboard sound better? I mean I know that polyphony means how many notes can play at once, but does that mean when you play a single note from a 128 polyphony keyboard will sound "better" than a 64 polyphony keyboard?

No the polyphony wouldn't affect the sound of one note. What it does allow is stacking of sounds, rhythms, commands (such as controllers, sustain). My limited playing style does not put a heavy demand on polyphony, but if you are prone to stack, say, a brass pad, strings, piano, then play two handed chords with the sustain pedal on, it adds up in a hurry.
DonM

Thank you Don, the reason I asked this question is that I was in a local Mars music store, and I had this debate with one of the keyboard sales people. There I was, enjoying the PSR9000 and having fun with it. I like the layout a lot because I've played the 740 before too, so I was pretty familiar with the OS. So then comes the saleperson and he thought I wanted to buy the PSR9000. I told him that I already bought a PA80 and just wanted to hear the PSR9000. I guess after hearing I'm not there to buy, he became uninterested but started talking about how great the PSR9000 is, particular the fact that it had 128 polyphony whereas the PA80 only had 64 (I had to correct him it actually only has 62). So we went on to have this conversation about PSR9000 vs PA80. I said I bought the PA80 over the PSR9000 because I prefer its sounds/styles.

Now, I love my PA80, but not once did I mention to him that it was a better keyboard than the PSR900. I even told him that sound is very subjective, just because I choose the PA80 doesn't mean it's a better keyboard than PSR9000. His reply was "You're right, because it is not." He just kept on saying PSR9000 is better because it had 128 polyphony and its sounds are better. I had to tell him that I only play at home and do some midi composition, and 64 polyphony is plenty for me. Then he said 128 polypohny sounds a lot better than 64 polyphony, and I said that's only if I do really complex composition and use up all of my sound layers. He started telling me "Well, trust me on this, I do this for a living, and I bought a MOTIF at home which most people don't even have...I guess I didn't tell you about my $5,000 studio equipment" Puhlease....

Right then, I was very annoyed and wanted to end the conversation and get out of there, but he just kept rambling on how I shouldn't doubt him what polyphony meant because he does this sort of things for a living. Finally, someone came to pick up a keyboard, and we eventually ended this meaningless conversation.

Sorry about the rambling and moaning, but I just can't believe some people are so stubborn (not to mention rude), and can't be objective on some issues.

Mikey

Mikey,
Well, your Mars boy is wrong about the Yamaha polyphony too. It's 126. What a jerk.
It's possible that he meant by having more polyphony the manufacturer can stack up more tones within a sound to give a better overall tone. Yamaha uses 4 sounds per tone in a lot of the better sounds, as do many other brands. Ironically, the polyphony on the PSR9000 is very weak. I still can't layer a simple piano & string sound without having terrible, UNmusical dropouts. It almost sounds as if it's playing in mono. That sales clerk is a jackass, and if he was any good at doing music for a living - he wouldn't have to work in a store!
You'll be very happy with the PA80,
but if you decide to change - - - -
you know where NOT to shop!

Well this is the difference in dealing from a specialist like George Kaye at Reseda Music or Dan01 from his branch of Guitar Center. Most salesmen are just that, salesmen !!! and are more intent on making the sale rather than providing useful advice. I know when I checkout keyboards at my local Oxnard CA Guitar Center I pass through unoticed as I try out the various keyboards. But I actually prefer that to being hassled by a salesman that is just trying to make a sale. I guess if I was a regular customer I would be offended by the lack of attention but it suits me fine to be left alone.

Increased polyphony can indirectly improve sound quality by allowing such capabilities as stereo sampling (which doubles the amount of polyphony required) and voice layering. Even lower-end keyboards have instruments that use up two or more voices of polyphony. These techniques can result in more complex and realistic sounding instruments. (The ultimate pipe organ simulation would require over a thousand voices of polyphony, for example.) Increased polyphony also permits richer, denser arrangements.

David Altekruse

Dave,

The Yamaha 9000 can use as many as 8 tones per note (a sound made up of this amount). So if you play a two handed piano jazz style "chording", combined with strings, which could have 8 tones per note, then you will find out that the problem lies here. Example: a two handed chord of four notes (C E G C), layered by strings - containing 8 tones per note, would take up 80 notes poly - assuming the Piano had two notes for stereo sound (as is the norm). OK, 80 notes don't take all your PSR9000's Poly up - but play these chords in a arpeggiated fasion - and you have a different story. This is one of the problems I hear about the Yamaha 9000, you need more tones to make the desired sound, wereas other keyboards used 4 (mainly).

Your right there DNA

O8

Nigel,
I was in the Guitar Center today,Sunday, in Oxnard. I had to drive out to Costco to pick up a table a chairs. Oxnard is a 28 mile drive from Reseda, and I've never been in any Guitar Center except for checking out the Hollywood store some years ago. I walked through the whole store, stopped and played with a Casio keyboard (there wasn't a high end arranger keyboard in the store) and not one single salesperson ever came up to me and said hello or asked if I wanted anything. It wasn't crowded in the store and all the help were busy talking to each other. When I came out of the store I was amazed at how I was in the store for over an hour and my experience was exactly like the MI spy report stated his experience was at the two mega stores in my area of LA. Dan O, you must be one in a million at Guitar Center stores! Could you imagine if you and I sold keyboards in the same store in perhaps Colorado Springs, Co., to make all the Colorado members of this forum happy to have a great music store to buy arranger keyboards in? Man, we would sell a load of SD1's between you and me!
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California

George,

Your experience with GC is similar to mine at the San Jose GC. I've been there several times, once for a couple hours, and have never been approached by a sales-teen. Maybe there's something about my being the only person in the store with a decent income that turns them off. Not that I mind being left alone when I'm trying out keyboards. Unfortunately, there are usually several pimply-faced school kids blasting away on electric guitars with amps set at 11 making it impossible for me to hear even with headphones on. Too bad your store isn't up here.

David Altekruse

George,
Thanks for your posting regarding the Oxnard GC. Glad to hear it was not just me they avoid but keyboard customers in general As you say they don't stock any high end arranger keyboards. Given the attention they pay to customers I doubt if they'd know if there was a demand or not in the area.

Well it can only drive more customers to your store in Reseda. It makes stores like your own stand out from the chain stores. Not that all GC stores are to be viewed like this, as those with enthusiastic experts such as Dan01 are providing good service. It still depends on the staff at each store. It just pays for people to find out which is the best store in their area for support and advice. Often word of mouth is the best way to find out this sort of info.

Let me add a couple of cents worth...I know we're getting away from the original string on polyphony, but since we're discussing music stores . . .
There are only 4 music stores in the Shreveport area. One of them is very chuch-oriented. They have pianos, organs, a few Korg synths, sound systems, but no arranger keyboards.
Another is strictly guitars, amps, p.a.'s, no arrangers.
Then there is a piano store that does carry one Technics KN6000. They are nice folks, but they don't know anything about how to work it. They offered me a one-time deal of $5000. if I bought it "today"! As far as I know, they've had it about 6 or 7 months, apparently waiting for an ignorant, rich little old lady to buy it.
The other store is the one I work with. They have a large department dedicated to pianos, synths and keyboards. Over the years they have always stocked some arranger keyboards. In fact during the 80's they were a big item. I often went in for a few months at Christmas to help demo and sell them.
They still stock Yamaha arrangers and they do have a young man that is knowledgeable to demo them. (Sometimes his demos turn into concerts, but at least he knows quite a bit about them). Being good friends with the owner, I can tell you his problems and concerns with this department.
There is quite a bit of interest in the low and mid range arrangers. Customers are shown the features and given fair prices.
Most of them do not buy at the first visit.
Instead they search the internet for "deals". They can go directly across the street to Circuit City and get really low prices on whatever couple of Yamahas or Cascios that are in stock. They don't have to have a demo because the guy at the music store has already spent a couple of hours doing that. Or they can order off the internet. The music store will match most any price, but often on the lower-end units the 8 1/2 percent sales tax puts the price too high. It's that tight.
The higher end units have many of the same problems, except they are not available locally anywhere else. My friend is reluctant to stock many keyboards because the profit margin is low. The time taken to demo a $500 keyboard, that you might make $50 profit on, could be spent marketing a 9-foot Yamaha Grand, or a $3000. p.a. system, either of which has significantly more profit built in. He doesn't stock the top-end units at all, preferring not to tie up $2000 per unit in such a low-demand, low-profit situation.
I suppose if the volume of keyboard sales were higher, a store could live with a very small profit margin (that's what the internet stores depend on, and some of them do not even have physical showrooms, salesmen, delivery trucks, sales tax, etc to worry about).
Of the higher end keyboards that they sell, I'm probably responsible for 75% of them simply because people hear me play them and ask where to to get one. I'll get them a price and the store will order the keyboard. Believe me, this is only two or three a year.
I suspect these and other similar factors are among the reasons you don't see many stores stocking the arranger keyboards. The exceptions, such as George and Dan, are stores in larger markets that become specialists in this area. I also suspect that George and Dan would have similar problems if they relied strictly on local traffic, instead of augmenting their operations with internet sales, but I don't know that to be fact.
What the local stores have to offer that the chains and internet stores can't is customer service. The question is, is it worth the time and expense necessary to provide this when the same effort provides more profit when directed to other areas of music.
On a related subject, I think the tremendous success of the Peavey company is in large part due to the fact that they protect their dealers by not allowing internet sales of their equipment. Their gear is modestly priced, well-made equipment. Most of it carries a suggested retail markup of 100%. Of course not much is sold at that markup, but at least there is room for a dealer to give discounts and still make a profit.
Maybe these rambling thoughts will either shed a little light on the subject or at least make us more tolerant in our quest for the perfect arranger.
DonM

Sorry to continue off topic,but.I had the same thing happen to me at the GC store in Cleveland as happened to Nigel, George & DNA. Kinda weird huh?

Same experience with GC in Atlanta here.
You almost have to beg them before they let you buy something. Even in a big city like Atlanta, I was not able to find many high end arrangers on display.
I found a PSR9000 at GC and Mars music, the local music store had one old and banged up G1000.
Luckely George Kay was able to help me out.

The same experience at Arlington Heights
(Chicago area) GC. I went to buy a mic preamp. I was standing there for about 30 minutes looking at one sales person after the other waiting for help. When I started to look for one by myself among the boxed products on the floor, a salesman approached me -if not confronted me- asking "can I help you ?". He was not friendly at all; he looked annoyed. I bought the preamp on that day from them, but will never go back to that store again.

I have had much better experience at Cincinnati Mars when I was living in that area.

This dicussioon about merchandising arranger keyboards in the United States is very true, and very disheartning. Consider the state of Michigan, which has several large city's and market area's. I recently purchased a Technics KN-6500, and learned there are only three authorized dealors in the state that stock them. My choice was between the PSR-9000 or the 6500. I was astonished to learn that not a single dealor could I find in the whole state that stocked the Yamaha PSR-9000. As Yamaha Corporation CLAIMS to be the largest Manufacture of musical instruments in the world, could someone tell me why they would not have a Top End Stocking Dealor in one of the largest states in the Union? Great Forum and thanks.

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