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#138447 - 09/24/01 11:49 PM Do you experience delays after FILLís on your arrangers ?
Luka Offline
Member

Registered: 07/04/01
Posts: 148
Loc: Slovenia
Hi !
Iím quite new in arranger world, I own SD1 for some time now.
While playing certain styles, especially with higher tempos, it seems to me like after pressing FILL , the first beat of the following bar is slightly delayed.
At first I thought the keyboard runs out of voices, but that delay happens even with only drums playing.
Iím not sure, where the problem is:
 maybe thereís none
 maybe the delay is inserted on purpose
 maybe the FILL sequence is a little bit faster or not quantized and creates that feeling of delayed downbeat
 maybe changing of sequences can't be done without problems on arranger keyboards

Iím not quite sure but I think I also had this feeling when I was testing other arrangers.
In the past, using computer sequencer and a sound module, such delays never happened to me.
Is this just a feeling that I have or is it a problem that can or canít be solved?

Luka

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#138448 - 09/25/01 01:20 AM Re: Do you experience delays after FILLís on your arrangers ?
Sev01 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/16/01
Posts: 22
Hello Luka,
I own the sd1 and I do agree with you on that. I am not new with arrangers and this is the first time I experience delays after fill ins in most of the styles, and also some of the latin styles are not very smooth and sound they are not quantized. I hope they fix these problems with the next o.s. upgrades.

Good luck.

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#138449 - 09/25/01 05:09 AM Re: Do you experience delays after FILLís on your arrangers ?
Roel Offline
Member

Registered: 06/24/99
Posts: 1232
Hi guys,
I experienced the same problem with other keyboards. (e.g. Yammy PSR's, KN's, X1 and SD1) I guess it is caused by too many prgchange commands or just too slow processors and ABSOLUTELY not implemented on purpose.

The SD1's delays are hardly noticeable and to be honest : I do not notice it anymore.

The SD1 has another (unwanted) feature :
After changing to another voice-group and voice, only the very first tones are too loud.

BUT : OS Version 2.0 is on the corner !

Roel

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#138450 - 09/25/01 07:18 AM Re: Do you experience delays after FILLís on your arrangers ?
Vic01 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/12/00
Posts: 275
Loc: Madison, Wisconsin USA
I'll have to check the delay out on my wk8. At high tempo's I wouldn't be surprised if I have a delay also. It's no doubt related to the processor not being able to keep up with all the info being thrown at it. I wonder if the Wersi Abacus chokes a little when doing fills at fast tempos seeing how it runs off a celeron/win98. hmmm... my guess is yes.

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#138451 - 09/25/01 10:15 AM Re: Do you experience delays after FILLís on your arrangers ?
George Pchakjian Offline
Member

Registered: 03/13/01
Posts: 373
Loc: Irvine Ca, USA
I have an X1, and I know the problem persisted for a long time. I think it has to do with the grooves that are involved with that perticular style, may be Dan O, or George K, can elaborate on the problem. !

------------------
George Pchakjian
geopch@aol.com
_________________________
Salamat

JerjyBeck

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#138452 - 09/25/01 11:15 AM Re: Do you experience delays after FILLís on your arrangers ?
Graham UK Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/20/01
Posts: 1867
Loc: Lincolnshire UK
Had Korg i3 & i30 for 6 years and no delays experienced at all on styles following a fill. My present Roland EM2000 certainly has not delays with all the built in styles or the 400 or so loaded from Zip Drive.
I play friends PSR9000, KN6000, PR903, VA7 and again no delays from fills to style.

Its definitely a problem I feel should not be there on any board.

Graham UK

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#138453 - 09/25/01 12:30 PM Re: Do you experience delays after FILLís on your arrangers ?
Ketron_AJ Offline
Moderator

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3243
Loc: Middletown, DE
Team,

Some of the delays you 'might' be experiencing in some of the styles could be indeed due to any of the reasons you've already listed above. In the SD1/X units, I do believe though that the GROOVES do have a part to play with what might seem to be a delay when in transit from a FILL to A, B, C or D. For the most part, in order to avoid such, most of the FILLS have been programmed to carry forth the groove used in the previous ARRANGER part. Eg the DRUM2/GROOVE track of FILL_1 will be what was used in ARRANGEMENT_A. In cases where these vary, you might notice a slight 'glitch'. Since they are LIVE-DRUMS, they really cannot accurately be QUANTIZED because that will then defeat the purpose and eliminate a lot of that 'human' aspect.
A way to reduce this effect would be to turn OFF the AUTO-CRASH. This way, you'll experience a 'smoother' transistion b/w fills and other arranger parts, the reason being that the AUTOCRASH is programmed right on the note. Should you be using eg a LATIN rhythem that's made up of mostly GROOVES (which are not strictly QUANTIZED), there could be a 'clash' in transition.
Hope this helps ... at least from an understanding point as to why.

AJ
_________________________
[KETRON - USA]
Design Engineer & Product Specialist.
www.KetronAmerica.com

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#138454 - 09/25/01 01:08 PM Re: Do you experience delays after FILLís on your arrangers ?
Scottyee Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 10427
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, CA, US...
I don't experience delays on my Technics KN5000. One of the tricks to preventing fill in delays (at least on my KN5000) is timing. I trigger fills via foot controller pedal (via left foot) and press it on the AND of the last beat of the previous measure before the measure I want the fill to occur on. - Scott
_________________________

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#138455 - 09/25/01 11:35 PM Re: Do you experience delays after FILLís on your arrangers ?
Luka Offline
Member

Registered: 07/04/01
Posts: 148
Loc: Slovenia
Hi guys !
Yesterday I checked this delay Ďífeatureíí also with external sequencer.
I checked two styles (didnít have time for more), one country and one 8 beat style. I recorded only drum part with computer sequencer. I started with ARRANGE section, then I pressed FILL 1, after that FILL 2, then again I hold down FILL 1 to record multi-fill (fills 1, 2, and 3 playing one after another).
The record showed what I was afraid of Ė all the notes were quantized (even those in multi-fill) except the transition from FILL to ARRANGE section. Just those notes on the first bit were all a little to late, all proceeding notes were all right and quantized again.
I recorded the same thing also with slower and faster tempo and the delay was the same Ė so itís always there, it is just the most annoying and noticeable with tempos around 120.
The above observations were made with SD1 generating internal clock.
Then I generated the clock with external sequencer and guess what Ė the trouble was gone, no delays any more.
How could this be? Why is internal clock not good enough to trigger those transitions properly?
I would be glad to get some info from Ketron Company itself. There has to be something to make this thing better, this machine is just too sophisticated to allow such anomalies.
I will do some more tests with other styles and without AUTO-CRASH as A.J. has recommended.
Iíll keep you informed.
Thanks also for your comments.
Luka

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#138456 - 09/26/01 01:47 PM Re: Do you experience delays after FILLís on your arrangers ?
Tom Cavanaugh Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/06/99
Posts: 2121
Loc: Muskegon, MI
George,

I too have a X1. Could you tell me the styles on which this delay occurs so I can try it on mine. There is one intro on one style where I seem to notice a delay between the intro and the style. I'm at work now and don't exactly remember the style where this happens.

A while back Scott mentioned the number of timing intervals per beat or something like that. Could this be the answer?

Tom

P.S. Do you not like your SD-1?
_________________________
Thanks,

Tom

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#138457 - 09/27/01 08:04 AM Re: Do you experience delays after FILLís on your arrangers ?
Scottyee Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 10427
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, CA, US...
Hi Tom: The 'timing intervals', number of parts per quarter note (ppq) is frequently refered to as "timing resolution". What this essentially does is quantizes the timing to a specified portion of a beat: 64 ppq = 64 parts per quarter note, 480 ppq = 480 parts per quarter note. The higher the number, the finer (higher) the resolution and more musically accurate it sounds. I somehow doubt that the SD1 'fill in' delay is caused by low timing resolution, but it may be something to consider though.

Luka: please tell us exactly WHEN (what measure, beat and fraction of that beat) you are pressing the fill-in button and also, exactly WHEN (what measure, beat and fraction of that beat) the fill actually begins. - Scott
_________________________

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#138458 - 09/27/01 01:35 PM Re: Do you experience delays after FILLís on your arrangers ?
George Pchakjian Offline
Member

Registered: 03/13/01
Posts: 373
Loc: Irvine Ca, USA
Hi Tom.
Try the styles in the B section 51 though 58. You will see what I mean by transition delays. Specially B53. Latin styles in perticular.
The Sd1 that was for sale was for a friend of mine who wanted to sell it, but after a while he got attached to it and changed his mind. he is keeping it after all since I was able to program quarter tones into it.
George.

------------------
George Pchakjian
geopch@aol.com
_________________________
Salamat

JerjyBeck

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#138459 - 09/30/01 10:36 PM Re: Do you experience delays after FILLís on your arrangers ?
Luka Offline
Member

Registered: 07/04/01
Posts: 148
Loc: Slovenia
Scott,
It doesn't matter when the FILL is pressed, it always runs well and catches the quantization of arrange section. Then it comes that first beat of arrange section that is late and everything afterwards runs perfect again.
Luka

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#138460 - 10/01/01 02:15 AM Re: Do you experience delays after FILLís on your arrangers ?
Beakybird Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/27/01
Posts: 2219
My Yamaha PSR 740 never has beat delays. Maybe you have a bum keyboard, Luka. You should find a specific situation that causes the beat delay, and find out if another SD3 owner can repeat it. If it can't be repeated on another keyboard, then your keyboard needs repair or replacement.

Larry

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#138461 - 10/01/01 07:51 AM Re: Do you experience delays after FILLís on your arrangers ?
Roel Offline
Member

Registered: 06/24/99
Posts: 1232
Hi all,

Larry : The PSR740 does have timing problems while playing some styles. A friend of mine still owns one and I experienced major delays while playing the samba with organ flutes (drawbars).
In a dutch keyboard-magazine this 'feature' was one of the 'cons' during a review.

An important issue is the 'personal acceptance' of this delay-item. e.g. What is acceptable for me, might be a huge problem for others.

The X1 AND the SD1 have VERY SMALL delays on some styles on the FIRST beat after a fill-in or intro. (Some styles only)
There are also VERY SMALL delays on the FIRST notes played (right hand) after a fill-in or intro.

But as I mentioned before : Acceptable ..... and believe me, my 'tolerance-level' is very low !

Roel

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#138462 - 10/01/01 03:16 PM Re: Do you experience delays after FILLís on your arrangers ?
George Pchakjian Offline
Member

Registered: 03/13/01
Posts: 373
Loc: Irvine Ca, USA
Hi luka,
I was at George K's music store last friday, Made a special visit to show him what you mean by delays on the fill ins, and the Intros, on one specific style which is the Ranchera beat B47 or B48 I beleive.The rest of the styles are fine.
George and I both worked on solving the puzzle,This is what we came up with.
If you go to the drum section on that beat and mute the groove part, you will not notice any delays what so ever. Since the grooves were recorded live on the X1 and the SD1, using a live percusion player, these flaues are inevetable, and to me personally, since I love my X1 so much, that part of it is tolarable and fixable.
You can deleat the groove all together and make your own groove by using the second drum track..
Thank you George K, for clearifying the Issue for us.
George.

------------------
George Pchakjian
geopch@aol.com

[This message has been edited by George Pchakjian (edited 10-01-2001).]
_________________________
Salamat

JerjyBeck

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#138463 - 10/02/01 07:25 AM Re: Do you experience delays after FILLís on your arrangers ?
Tom Cavanaugh Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/06/99
Posts: 2121
Loc: Muskegon, MI
George P,
I tried to find the delay in the spots you told me about but I didn't notice any. The delay must be very very small. I'm still happy.

Tom
_________________________
Thanks,

Tom

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#138464 - 10/04/01 07:33 AM Re: Do you experience delays after FILLís on your arrangers ?
Ketron_AJ Offline
Moderator

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3243
Loc: Middletown, DE
George P.
As I had earlier on mentioned, the GROOVES/LIVE DRUMS are what cause this apparent 'delay' at the start of Arranger parts after a fill/when you change from Arranger to Arranger. In many cases unfortunately (esp in the SD1 where a lot more GROOVES/SAMPLE LOOPS were incoorporated than in the X-series giving it that more true-to-life feeling), mutting/deleting the GROOVE/DRUM2 eliminates the entire drums of the style since 90% of the drum track is GROOVES rather than Keyboard drums (DRUM1). For the X1, mutting/deleting GROOVES may not have too much of an impact (except eg LATIN styles) and the intergrity of the style could still be maintained.
Probably a faster processor in a feature board might truely resolve this.
_________________________
[KETRON - USA]
Design Engineer & Product Specialist.
www.KetronAmerica.com

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#138465 - 10/04/01 11:53 AM Re: Do you experience delays after FILLís on your arrangers ?
George Pchakjian Offline
Member

Registered: 03/13/01
Posts: 373
Loc: Irvine Ca, USA
Thanks for the info AJ, I would really like the Idea of having a faster processor on both the SD1 and the X1. May be next generation of the SD1 will have it together. Or would you think they would come out with a retrofit processor for the X1 and the SD1, since they claim these keyboards are here to stay and be competitive for the next decade.
George P.
_________________________
Salamat

JerjyBeck

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#138466 - 03/22/02 08:16 AM Re: Do you experience delays after FILLís on your arrangers ?
Ketron_AJ Offline
Moderator

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3243
Loc: Middletown, DE
Better late than never, right?

We have fixed the delays you used to experience in the SD1 when transiting from FILLx to ARRy in REL 3.0a which can now be downloaded from our website.
We are looking into doing likewise for the X-series soon.
Thanks.

AJ
_________________________
[KETRON - USA]
Design Engineer & Product Specialist.
www.KetronAmerica.com

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#138467 - 03/23/02 01:12 AM Re: Do you experience delays after FILLís on your arrangers ?
Mosiqaar Offline
Member

Registered: 12/01/01
Posts: 999
Loc: Atlanta, GA, USA
AJ,

Please let us know as soon as you fix the delays on the X series as well.

Thanks
_________________________
Samer

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#138468 - 03/27/02 03:28 AM Re: Do you experience delays after FILLís on your arrangers ?
acima Offline
Member

Registered: 03/26/02
Posts: 32
Loc: Italy
AJ,
the new release of 3.0 Upgrade (the release after 21 March) fix only the Delay or other little bug ?
I have reported to Ketron a problem with a new function added in the last
upgrade at SD1.
The function is the possibility to scroll through the Folders of the
HD using the Drum Volume buttons: if you try to change folder while a
song is playing the keyboard say a "please wait" message and go in a
hang status and you must power off and on to reset this situation; the
function work ok if the keyboard isn't playing midi file.

Bye

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#138469 - 03/27/02 05:47 AM Re: Do you experience delays after FILLís on your arrangers ?
Ketron_AJ Offline
Moderator

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3243
Loc: Middletown, DE
acima,
Please re-download OS3.0a for the SD1 and re-install. Folder scroll issue and Fill in delay have been resolved.
AJ
_________________________
[KETRON - USA]
Design Engineer & Product Specialist.
www.KetronAmerica.com

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#138470 - 03/27/02 07:31 AM Re: Do you experience delays after FILLís on your arrangers ?
keoman Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/14/00
Posts: 12
Loc: Ft.Worth, TX (USA)
Hi! Guys, I've monitor this forum for a while and I agree with you guys.
I'm having a same problem with my x1 and sd1. I personally like to create my own style
but when you fill sometime the voice on the bar it's too loud and having a delay after fill. Even I try to eliminate all the effect, the problem is still there. Second thing on the SD1 every time when I try to create the style, most of the time the keyboard is freeze on me I also try a new OS version. I know even they have a good sound and style, but that problem very disappoint me. Now I got rid of those board and I'm own a 9000PRO, so far I like it very much.
I got rid of

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