When it comes to sounds...Is it just me, or do these keyboards fall short..compared to of all things.."Sound fonts"

To me ..Sound fonts sound better than all the hardware boards..and I think they sound better than the sample wavs of today...

Can someone explain the difference between these?

Listen and you tell me if your board can beat this?

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=C13B119701B9A250

Yo Fran,
I just got in from my Thurs. gig & listened to your Ice Castles. If that's you playing Li saluto! With chops like that, Any board would sound good.
Ciao,
Jerry

[This message has been edited by TwoNuts (edited 06-03-2006).]

[This message has been edited by TwoNuts (edited 06-03-2006).]

Dennis , that sounds pretty good..

It actually reminds me of the older piano patch in my G1000[for you guys and gals that have a G1000, I am referring to E-11]..

The PSR models I had , the mid range lacked dynamics....Your Tyros does not seem to suffer the same mid range problem..
Did you alter the stock piano or eq'd it differently?

[This message has been edited by TwoNuts (edited 06-03-2006).]

[This message has been edited by TwoNuts (edited 06-03-2006).]

I was just marveling at the great sound of the Tyros 2 piano. And it's great to hear somebody play with great piano chops.

Wow Dennis, that was nice. If you call that sloppy I wonder what it sounds like when you get serious about it

It is interesting how well that T2 Grand Piano sounds and records. I tend to use the Warm Grand, which tends to help my piano playing sound a little smoother as I am really a trumpet player and tend to play the kb as a horn soloist or horn section.

So I really do appreciate a true pianist who can lay down some lines.

Dennis, I'd listen to anything you play. Keep 'em coming

Best
Scott Langholff
http://ScottLMusic.com

Dennis,

Very well played ! Bravo!
I'm curious how a similar song sounds on G70 or PA1X.

As I've stressed b4 here, I recommend to everyone who posts links to music here, to PLEASE credit the performer (and if possible, the composer) of the music; and if not known, at least state that it wasn't played by them, as its too often assumed that the person (in this case Fran Carango) the person who performed (played) the piece himself.

Btw: Dennis Almond (TwoNuts): Very impressive Tyros2 pianistic demonstration on 61 keys performed by you. Bravo! This certainly adds new perspective to the 76 vs 61 note arranger keyboard debate. Perhaps we need to attain Dennis' kb playing proficiency level before demanding a 76 note arranger afterall. Scott

Fran Ice castles was very nice. I use sound fonts along with VST's, Giga and other sample libraries.
Dennis excellent m8 very well done. The T2 comes to life as soon as you edit the preset sounds adding a bit of reverb here and there and tweaking other settings Every T2 owner should link it to their PC and use the great editing software that comes with it free. It's amazing just what can be achieved. I spent from November until the end of April on and off going through just about every one of the preset sounds and loads of styles creating my own. Takes a while but the rewards are worth it.

Here are my impressions:

Ice castles: the piano sounds thin, harsh and metallic; aside from that, there definitely something wrong with the stereo image.

Slammed: the piano sounds fuller, more like a real piano, with a lot more of dynamics.

Still sloppy: different song, but the piano sounds still a lot more convincing than the one in "Ice castles".

To summarize my impressions, if I had a digital piano that sounded like the one used in "Ice castles" I would try to sell it immediately. If this wasn't possible, I would dump it in the garbage bin.

Sorry for being a bit blunt, but these are my impressions.

Craig....can you or anyone perhaps go into some detail about using & or its features of the included T2 Editing software CD? I've been so busy gigging & havnt had a chance to load it or try it out yet or for that matter IDC either ....Thanx.

I loved both pianos and if your ears can differenrtate to that extent good on you ! The Yamaha as usual is a bit bright for my liking but still an excellent piano sound. Dennis you are a heavy weight pianist !!

I think when pianos get to this level of realism it really just boils down to tastes whether you prefer the Baldwin, Steinway or Bosendofer piano. When they are played as well as the demo Dennis just threw down then i cant see anyone having any genuine complaints

Dennis

Just listened again. I'm wondering if you made use of the octave button on this or if that was all one setting.

Scott

[This message has been edited by TwoNuts (edited 06-03-2006).]

[This message has been edited by TwoNuts (edited 06-03-2006).]

It's a shame the octave shift + or - isn't able to be assigned to the pedal function yet. I use the pedal function to change the OTS up and down, registrations, fill ins and DSP variation on and off so I'm sure it should be easy for Yamaha to implement in the next software update. Pretty please

[This message has been edited by TwoNuts (edited 06-03-2006).]

i listened to them again and actually i agree with fran. The sound font piano seems to have more dynamic range. You hear it especially when the piano is played more quietly and on the upper range.

It really should not matter whether the poster says if he or she played the music.
Especially since in the case the poster asked us to focus on the quality of the sound (pianos) and not the player.


I guess the poster did this so as not to have the topic stray away from the topic of the quality of the sound.

He probably did not want to hear “this is good playing” or “this is bad playing” or "how did you play this". He probably wanted comments about the quality of the sound.

In this case knowing whether it was the poster or another person playing does and should not in any way affect your judgment of the quality of the sound.

Now don’t get me wrong, it is always good to say who is playing and where the file came from, but is not necessary in a small forum like this and is absolutely not necessary for us to make an evaluation of the sound (like what the poster wanted us to do in this case).

[This message has been edited by TwoNuts (edited 06-03-2006).]

We judge what we think best by what we hear – and when a fine piano player demonstrates a piano he has an effect on what we are trying to judge. Was the piano sound better??? Or did the piano player make it sound better???
My dad who played piano extremely well tuned pianos at Wurlitzer piano in a store in Manhattan 42nd street. Whenever a salesman felt he was losing a sale he asked my Dad to play that without doubt effected the buyers opinion of the piano.

So does it matter who plays the instrument? I think it does it we wish to judge properly. IMHO

John C.

PS, I never enjoyed the over use of a sustain pedal, it seems to blurr everything.

Dennis:

Very impressive and great chops!! What I found most impressive was the fact you played those selections on a 61 note keyboard. Excellent.

Scott Yee is on to something with his comment

IMO the Tyros samples sounded much richer and fuller. Great chops on both Dennis, I am jealous.

To my ears the Ice Castles piano lacked it across the entire range of the board. It sounded very tinklie to me, with very little bottom end dynamics and resonance.

Terry

------------------
jam on,
Terry
http://www.artisans-world.com/

Interesting topic, as I just got the chance to give a try to Steinberg Hypersonic 2 and (some!!) samples are indeed much better on there than on my VA7. The ones I'm reffering to where much deeper, richer and thus more realistic.

It makes me a little angry, cause when you buy a hardware board (I mean a keyboard), you don't get all of these good samples but we pay MUCH more.. Why...? I don't mean to say that the samples on the pro-keyboards are not good, but some can really get better.

Frustrating.

[This message has been edited by Sander (edited 06-03-2006).]

I'm not an expert on hardware by any means, but I've learned enough just from observing.. that the hardware manufacturers are at a disadvantage even from the start. Probably due in a large part because of the time it takes from initial design of a product until it actually gets released. Those of us who use computers regularly understand that the technology changes so rapidly, that something that was the standard a year or 18 months ago is now often obsolete or very close to being there.

The Motif series is a perfect example of this. By the time the original or "Classic" version was released, the Simms that it used to expand memory had already been replaced as the current standard for Ram in hardware computers.

Then there are the sample rom limitations. When you buy a hardware board, you get what you get. That's it.. no more, unless of course your board has sampling, and you can add sounds to it. The current ES boasts of 180 megs of internal sample rom, for several hundred instruments of course. The SGM180 software uses that amount for 127 GM sounds, and dedicated software, like "Real Guitar" uses more than that just for nine acoustic guitar sounds.. so it isn't too hard to guess who can get deeper into sample layering for the most realism.

Of course, when you have a Tyros or Motif ES, or any other hi end board, you're getting a ton of great sounds, but if like me, with my own PA80 for example, you don't like the piano or el piano... well we're pretty much stuck with it, unless you want to add you own samples.

We can debate sounds to death, ( it's a bit too subjective for me ), but until you're actually trying to use a particular sound for a particular mix, it's kinda hard to tell from listening to demos or even when we play the board ourselves at the store. For example, of my 3 hardware boards, I always thought my Motif ES had the best "classic" EP sounds, and that my MZ2000 was the worst. Recently I was laying KB tracks down for a local musician. He wanted something close to the El Piano sound from the Eagles " I Can't tell you why" for his own song. I figured this would be pretty easy, but to my surprise ..we couldn't quite get it with the ES, and the PA80 wasn't even close, so before I started going to soft synths, I figured, what the heck, I'll try the oft maligned Casio.. the MZ2000 of course. Bingo... we both agreed it was almost a prefect emulation. Funny thing is, I'd have never guessed the MZ would be it if we didn't try it in his own song.

BTW, a majority of us don't use the sampling options we have in our boards anyway, and more often then not the ones who do use sampling to add cutting edge or different sounds as opposed to trying to replace what's already there. This I know simply from perusing enough sites where sampling is one of the main topics. After trying the sampling functions on my PA80 and Motif ES, I understand why too... Sampling in a dedicated sampling app, especially in today's software samplers, is pretty intuitive if not sometimes a bit complicated. Trying to do it in either one of my capable hardware boards can often be an exercise in frustration and about as enjoyable as getting a root canal.

AJ



[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 06-03-2006).]

[This message has been edited by TwoNuts (edited 06-03-2006).]

Dennis,

Both of your recordings have noticable 'clipping' in them. When clipping occurs and someone listens to the recording, in this case, "Slammed" and "Still Sloppy" you can actually ruin your speakers if you're not careful. Slammed was the worst offender of the two but nevertheless both had excessive clipping in them.

In the future you might want to record at a lower level or after having recorded your song[s] to check them for clipping. A good program to check audio for clipping is Sound Forge version 7 or version 8. There are other software programs out there that can do the same thing.

I know you did it unknowingly but try to remember we're your friends and you don't want to ruin a friends set of speakers do you?

Thanks,
Mike

Thanks Mike for bringing this to my attention.


Dennis

[This message has been edited by TwoNuts (edited 06-03-2006).]

Dennis,

Mike is right. I analyzed the second .mp3 file in Cool Edit pro and there is a considerable bit of clipping in it.

AJ

[This message has been edited by TwoNuts (edited 06-03-2006).]

[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 06-03-2006).]

Clipping is the Term used to describe the result of an amplifier running into power supply limitation. The maximum output voltage that any amplifier can produce is limited by its power supply. Attempting to output a voltage (or current) level that exceeds the power supply results in a flattoping effect on the signal, making it look cut off or "clipped." A clipped waveform exhibits extreme harmonic distortion, dominated by large amplitude odd-ordered harmonics making it sound harsh or dissonant. Hard clipping is the term used to describe extreme clipping of a signal, producing highly visible flattoped waveforms as viewed on an oscilloscope; soft clipping refers to moderate clipping that results in waveforms having softly-rounded edges, as opposed to the sharp edges of hard clipping. PS: This is talking about clipping when you 'overdrive' an amplifier and the signal is sent to speakers i.e. - A square ("clipped") waveform that occurs when the power output of an amplifier cannot meet the power requirement of the speaker it is driving. Clipping can be very harmful to high-frequency speakers (tweeters).

When recording audio, the same theory applies in that you are 'exceeding' the maximum allowable headroom or threshold i.e. "0.0" dB {when the recorded material is viewed through an oscilliscope, etc.} and in the case of the Tyros2 when you record a song it utilizes the Tyros2' "pre-amplifier", and consequently if the levels are too high the recording itself will contain clipping and can be heard on speakers; especially if there is excessive clipping present.

In other words, you are recording at too high of a level Dennis. That is the problem. You need headroom when recording so you do not run into clipping problems in the stuff you record.

Headroom is the ratio of the largest undistorted signal possible through a unit or system, to that of the average signal level. For example, if the average level is +4 dBu and the largest level is +26 dBu, then there is 22 dB of headroom. When you go beyond (above) Maximum Headroom or relatively speaking "0.0" decibels, you then start to experience the clipping effect.

Of course, it doesn't affect the Tyros2, but the recording, whether WAV or MP3 etc., affects the speakers of people who listen to the audio that has the clipping in it. Especially if the recording has hard or "excessive" clipping like the two you posted.

When listening to your two songs I could immeadiately tell there was clipping present in the recordings because my speakers started to distort with a crunching crackling like sound. Clipping is considered a No No and makes the recorded material sound less than optimal. Btw, my speakers are just fine and are in otherwise pristine working order. So it's not my speakers mind you.

I opened both of your songs into my Sound Forge 7.0b program and it has a feature that checks audio for clipping. Both of your songs were off the richter scale so to speak.

You say you recorded at the default recording levels on the Tyros. What do you mean exactly? The "volume" levels when recording need to be adjusted accordingly also. Too high of a volume level when recording will cause resultant clipping in the recorded material. I am guessing that's what happened when you recorded those two songs. If volume levels are not necessary or required when recording on the Tyros2 then the problem lies with the Tyros2' pre-amplifier recording level configuration I would guess. Either way, something is set too high or too "hot" when recording.

So this is just to make you aware of the situation Dennis. You may want to do some research on setting line levels so as to avoid the problem in the future. If the problem is 'hardware' within the Tyros2 then Yamaha needs to address it obviously. Or not so obviously if I know Yamaha like I know Yamaha.

Best regards,
Mike

[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 06-03-2006).]

The problem still exists in the revised songs Dennis.

Best regards,
Mike

Dennis,

I normally just use the standard media player to listen to files, but it's output goes through my USB audio card and into my master sound system. When I want to take a close look at an audio file, then I run it through Cool Edit Pro.

AJ

[This message has been edited by TwoNuts (edited 06-03-2006).]

One thing I have noticed when recording on the Tyros2, you're best off to set the level at 50, leaving a lot of room for when you may be playing louder and/or the background gets louder. This way there is hardly any chance of clipping and it can always be normalized on your computers software recording program.

Best
Scott

Yes, but this way you are not using all the dynamics the keyboard can deliver; in other words, your recording will sound a bit "flat".

[This message has been edited by TwoNuts (edited 06-03-2006).]

Ok... here it goes: if you record at a lower level the difference between the pianissimo (very low) and the fortissimo (very high) is reduced and this means a lack of dynamics. It's true that you can later normalize your recording, but this means increasing also the lowest levels. so your overall dynamics will always be reduced.
Just think of it in terms of decibels: in a quiet section the level is -say- 50 dB; then comes a peak and the level goes up to 90 dB; this means that you have a dynamic of 40 dB. If you reduce the recording level, you will never reach the 90 dB; it's true that you will never clip, but you will never attain those 40 dB of difference, and the same applies after normalization: the normalization process will give you a peak of 90 dB, but will increase the low levels as well, and so the difference between highest and lowest points will never be 40 dB.
Maybe professional studios have devices (like the old dbx) that can increase the peaks leaving the lows more or less unchanged, but the result will be less than natural and of course they cost an arm and a leg. This is the reason why all the manuals advice to record close to the clipping level, but without clipping. It is possibile, however, that with the hard disk recording process you have less control over the volumes.
I love to record at the highest possible level, but in the past had to redo more than one song because, after hearing the result, I realized that -at least in one point- I had gone into the "red zone".

Hope this all makes sense.

[This message has been edited by Dreamer (edited 06-03-2006).]

Dennis,

The "Do I Clip" song does NOT exhibit any clipping. In fact you have a little headroom to spare that's mainly on the left channel of your 'stereo' recording.

Btw, I hope I didn't befuddle you with all that mumbo jumbo about amplifiers, headroom, oscilliscopes, and what not.

Also, I'm glad it was just a simple adjustment of the recording level instead of something major.

Best regards,
Mike

[This message has been edited by TwoNuts (edited 06-03-2006).]

Dennis,

No clipping at all on this one. The highest peak appears to be about -0.5 db or so.

Recording at lower levels may affect the dynamics somewhat, but this isn't the only problem with it. Another major problem with recording anything at a substantially lower level than 0 db ( clipping level ) becomes the signal to noise floor ratio. Naturally, when you normalize the level of a piece that peaks well below 0 db, the noise floor that gets recorded along with the signal will rise along with it.

AJ


[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 06-03-2006).]

Thank you



[This message has been edited by TwoNuts (edited 06-03-2006).]

Hi Fran,
just out of interest, which soundfont did you use ?? the sgm180?? for Ice Castles .

Fran, is that fair, you may put keyboard manufacturers out of business, if people start to realize they don't need to spend thousands, or even hundreds of dollars on keyboards/synths if all they want to do is play midifiles, create backing sequences etc.

My SD1+ Keyboard $3700 AUD
SGM 180 Soundfont $0 AUD
Computer $ ??? Computer cost doesn't really count, as I wouldn't be here if I didn't own one.

best wishes
Rikki

p.s. later on today I'm going to invest a whole $12.99 to purchase an M1 ( soundfont that is, be interesting to see how close it comes to the original keyboard)

best wishes
Rikki
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fran Carango:
[B]When it comes to sounds...Is it just me, or do these keyboards fall short..compared to of all things.."Sound fonts"

To me ..Sound fonts sound better than all the hardware boards..and I think they sound better than the sample wavs of today...

Can someone explain the difference between these?

Listen and you tell me if your board can beat this?