Recently, I purchased a PSR 3000, and believe that, from build quality, key feel and overall sounds, it falls far short of
several Ketron products.

I particularly miss the 13 note pedalboard available for use with Ketrons.

I'll be assigning the Yamaha to the den for practice and buying a new SD-1 to replace my 9 year old MS 60 which still functions perfectly, and has been used 5 nights a week, including 6 months a year outside on a patio.

I'm glad you Yamaha users are happy with your choice. Ketron is still my preference.

Play on...


Russ

Russ, is this a fair comparison, shouldn't you compare the SD-1 with a Korg Pa1X or Yamaha Tyros, rather than the PSR3k?

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Graham

Hey, Russ -

Are you thinking of selling it?


Angelo

Not picking on anyone. This is just a personal observation for the little while I've been on the forum.

Except for Dave, he changes no matter what, the guys playing Yamahas for income seem to change or up-grade every time Yamaha comes out with something new. I mean it seems some on the forum have owned the 740, the 9000, 1100, the 2000, the 2100 the 3000 and so forth as they come out with newer models.

Not many here have owned their Yamahas as long as I've had my Korg, which is only 3 years I think, and definitely not as long as you've owned your keyboard Russ.

In my case I could reason their boards are wearing out faster than mine is because they play more than me. However Russ you seem to have a lot of time in your keyboard and it still works!

Yamahas for the most part seem to be cheaper than other brands in most cases, so it is less expensive to upgrade I suppose.

Each person has to decide for himself which way to go.

I have a 5-function foot pedal plus a separate damper foot pedal, if that's what you're talking about. How many pedals can one get for the Yamaha arrangers?

I'm a sax player and I have to admit a little more weight on the keys on all of the arranger keyboards seems

Cap,

I just sold my X1 on Ebay for $1200. I find that I like most of the things about the Tyros better including the drums and styles. I do play in a band and I double as the bass player. I used a set of Roland PK-5 midi pedals plugged directly into my X1 and played it like a two manual organ with bass pedals. I can't do that with my Tyros.

Tom

I don't think it has anything to do with any particular brand of keyboard being 'better' than any other. If anything it is more to do with the comfort zone of the musician.

I was always an ardent Technics fan and would not buy anything else. After the 5000 I finally tried something new and in quick succession went through Roland (em2000) and Korg (im40) and disliked them both. Went back to technics with the kn6000 and was happy again. I knew the board and what to expect from it so I was comfortable. Then I was lured to the Yamaha 9000pro and although it took a while I got as used to that as I was used to technics.

Lately as most of you know I bought the KN7000 and really could not get used to it so went back to Yamaha with the Tyros and felt comfortable again.

None of the above instruments are bad keyboards. All do the job for which they are intended very well. BUT it is the musician that makes any board sparkle and a musician can only do that if he feels 'in tune' with his instrument. The instrument should fit you not the other way about.

To paraphrase... brand names don't mean a thing if YOU ain't got that swing!

Best wishes to you and your keyboards (whatever they may be)
Tony

Hey, folks:

No, I'm not going to sell py PsrK300...I'm a gadget freak, and it's fun to fool with, just not something I want to use on the job.

I bought it because I needed a new toy, and it will be fine for that.

As far as a PSR 3K to SD-1 comparison, what I should have said is that I would prefer any Ketron over the PSR 3K.

You are right...it all comes down to personal preferences and what an individual player can do with a particular instrument.

I'm not really knocking the instrument..I'm just not impressed with the build quality of any Yamaha product (except the Clavinova I have at home).

Whatever "floats your boat..."

Russ

I try to upgrade once every year or so because I can still get top value for the "old" keyboard and the new one helps keep me fresh and up to date.
DonM

One more update and I better think about updating to a new way of life--living by myself!

I'll stick with the 3K until a Tyros with speakers and a USB drive becomes available. After that update, I think I'll just retire to working 40 to 50 hours a week.

Gary

Tom Cavanaugh,

Why can't you use your pedals with the Tyros? My midi pedals, a 25 note midied Wurlitzer set, transmit on channel 3 and I can hook the midi out from it to the midi in on anything that will receive on that channel and play it. The Tyros has two sets of midi plugs (plus the USB midi) and you should be able to set it up to work. If not, just look around for one of the Korg half rack sound modules used on Ebay or the local stores or the newspaper and then use that. The Korg module shouldn't be more than $200 to $400 used and you could just dedicate it to pedals playing.

Tom

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Bigger is not always better

I went to my local music shop as i often do tocheck out the latest arranger keyboards. I had the opportunity of playing the PSR3000. Iinreally is of poor build quality but more than that i was not impressed with sound quality either. I heard the keyboard through its own built in speakers and the piano sounded dull and lifeless. Maybe it was just the way the EQ was set on the board or the fact that the shop is rather large . But i own a Yamaha PSR 8000. It also has built in speakers but with concrete blocks in them to give the sound more creibility. Frommy stand point my old keyboard that must be some 7 years old now from its own speakers sounded much better than the 3000 and the build quality is much better. I cant help but think that somewhere in the mad rush to buy something new we are really not getting value for money. My keyboard could be bought for about £400.00 now. The 3000 cost arond £1200. There is no way i wouldpay that kind of money for it compared to what i already have.

Look at any top arranger keyboard from 5-6 years ago and you will not see a dramatic difference to todays models. Sounds are a bit better, but not by much.

Drum sounds have drastically improved over the last yearor so alone. The VA7, SD1, Tyros, PA80 .... these are worlds above the drum sounds of 3 or more years ago.

Overall, the new stuff has cleaner samples, longer samples and better effects.

Yes, the psr8k was built nice and had nice speakers, but the general sound and the reduced fill-ins (2) make it yesterdays news to me.

Give me the next newest thing every time.....at least till I find out what it can do!

So Dave, are you saying there is actually anything NEW with arranger keyboards? More of this, more of that doesn't mean new.

Look how far PCs and software have come over a 6 year period.

THERE IS NOTHING NEW IN THE ARRANGER SCENE AND WE AS USERS SHOULD DEMAND MORE! Looking at the posts on this forum it looks to an outsider as many are trying to keep the status quo. That ship has long since sailed.

Digitalvision, I realize you weren't addressing me directly, but, for what it's worth, imo, in addition to this new feature or that, the improved QUALITY (over the last 5 year) of both sound samples as well as styles (seemingly less canned sounding) have improved not just a little, but significantly, making it worth (at least imho) an upgrade investment to a current arranger keyboard. - Scott

DigitalVision, I wholeheartedly agree with Scott. Today's aranger keyboards are light years ahead of where they were just five years ago. The PSR-740 was a gigantic advancement over the PSR-500, the when the 2000 came out, it only took performers a few minutes of exploring the board's attributes to make the decission to upgrade. The PSR-3000 and Tyros have made huge strides in advancing the quality of sampling, plus provided users with one of the must user friendly operating systems available today. That, combined with USB, HD and SM storage, instant access, increible numbers of excellent third party style files, plus relatively low cost made Yamaha the front-runner, IMO, when it comes to which keyboard to purchase.

When I hear individuals talk about poor quality in construction, those statements usually come from those who do not perform on a regular basis at a number of different locations. When you must set up and tear down 4 to 8 times weekly, week after week, month after month and year round, lugging a 55-pound keyboard around in an equally heavy hard case just doesn't make good sense. The same holds true for PA systems, and all the other associated equipment that performing OMB entertainers use in order to be competitive and successful.

I'll stick with the so-called cheesy keys, lightweight plastic housing, aluminum speaker stands, 36.5-pound powered speakers, and load it all on my Rock-N-Roller. Every time I load and unload the cart and van my back says THANK YOU! Advances in arranger keyboards--YOU BET--and lots of them.

Gary

Oh, you are SO wrong about that.

Listen to the drum dounds for starters, then look at the USB connections and Smart Media cards, the dual sequencers on Korg PA series, the ability to "morph" styles on Rolands VA series. The MP3 playback on the Gem Genesis and Korg PA1x! ( and CDRs too ! )

The SD1 and the Tyros/3k let you mix a style in real time with a sequence, and the Yamaha even lets you add the whole arranger to a sequence while it's playing !
( not that it's a good thing, but cool anyway )

There are MANY, MANY added features and improvements made since the psr8000, and they are very easy to appreciate. You gotta play them all to see what's new. That's why I change so often .... BECAUSE of the new stuff. If nothing was added, I wouldn't need the new gear.

Take a closer look and really listen too. There's LOTS of brand new features and sounds to love.

I hear you Dave . I am a gigging musician in a sense. I play for various Gospel choirs and groups in and around Birmingham and the west midlands UK.I dont get paid but i work just as hard never the less. I work full time in the day time as i have a family to support to support. But most weekends i am sat around the keyboard with some young people either jamming or arranging on the fly.

For me it is crucial that if i purchase a keyboard it does all that i need it to do quickly and well and much better than how i do now. Minor incremental changes do not interests me. I have not upgraded my Yamaha PSR 8000 yet because
1. Obviuously these new boards come at a premium price!
2. The new features that are being marketed as new are actually a lot of the old features "tweeked abit".
3 I have yet to listen to a new arranger that sounded like i should pay another £2000 . Although some of the boards have newer samples and more sounds the actual difference in quality is not majorly significant unless you are in a studio .
4.There is very little in terms of what i do, writing and arranging that the new boards inspire either through sound or function to make the next investment.

I owned a Technics KN1000 before the Yamaha and it was about 4 years before i upgraded to the Yamaha. There was to my ears a step change in tonal quality and functionality between the two not least of which was the sampling facility and the vocal harmoniser.Both completely revolutionary functions to an arranger board. I still use the sampler now live in rehersal and in playback in performance in church.

However i do agree with you that the drum samples have improved significantly over the years. The other significant improvements in instrument sound has been some of the soprano saxes that really sound convincing to the point of disbelief! And some of the acoustic guitars.But not a whole lot else.

The Korg PAX sounds very interesting but if i were to purchase it , it would have to be in a couple of years time when the price has come down to justify the purchase.

The synth sounds are always interesting asthey dont have to sound like any real instrument and so you have nothing to compare it to. But i guess my focused use of sounds makes them of limited value.

Touch screens dont interest me, colour screens dont interest me,i can live with heavier weighted intruments if the sound quality is there. ( i have sufficient young Church brothers who i can enlist to carry my board) so my back does not need to thank me for another board yet.

I guess i am just waiting to be "wowed" again.... The newer Roland synths with the skip back sampling and realpianos are very interesting and if these facilities were available on an arranger then i would be very interested

There were a couple of justified replies there, but as a whole, no one has addressed the main point in that there's nothing NEW in the arranger scene and really, no one came up with a valued argument.

Most of the features mentioned above, are throw me downs from workstations. And I guess my point AGAIN is, put arranger features into a workstation. Obviously there is still a market for toy keyboards like the PSR1500, PA50 etc. These would be better left as 'arrangers', while workstations should appeal to the high end of a SINGLE high-end pro synth/arranger user market.

One other main point raised above is the so called improved quality of sounds. It just goes to show you how 'bad' the sounds were in the first place.

Am I understanding this right, that everyone is telling me here that they WOULDN'T LIKE TO HAVE A MOTIF AND TYROS AS ONE, OR A TRITON AND 1X, G70 AND FANTOM?



[This message has been edited by digitalvision (edited 10-01-2004).]

When you think about it, and take a good look at the specs, the PSR-3000 fits the bill of being a hybrid between the Motif and Tyros.

Gary

DigitalVision,

Here is an analogy to what you are saying:

My 1960 Ford had a six cylinder engine, 4 wheels, a roof, and 4 doors.

My 2004 Ford has a six cylinder engine, 4 wheels, a roof and 4 doors.

Therefore there is nothing new in automobiles.

This is simply not the case with cars and it is not the case with arrangers. Just as in cars there are quality, performance and refinement differences between the older and newer stuff. You don't feel that these differences merit you spending your money. That's cool and it is your decision and on this forum we can respect that. Many of us feel that higher quality sounds, better vocal harmonizers, livelier sounding drums and styles, smart card storage, and bigger color display screens are worth our money.

Tom

I too wish there was one keyboard with the functionality of a great arranger like Tyros or PA1X but with the quality of the Motif.

I love my PSR-2000 but am very disappointed in the piano sounds sounding flat and lifeless, and the strings sounds just blahh. The quality and variety of the Motif sounds make it hard to believe that its the same company that manufacturers both instruments.

Yamaha Folks - Create a Tyros+Motif T/M PRO and you will have a winner.

Well said Tom!!

I agree that most of the Arranger keyboards have DIFFERENT synthesizer engines than the workstations.

The PSR and TYROS have synth engine similar to the MU series sound modules. It's also similar to the XG sound cards.

Hence the sound shaping and processing DSPs are different than the synhtesizer workstations. And that's why there is not options detailed sound editing on PSR and TYROS.. like changing the filter types, changing the LFOs... etc..

In my opinion YAMAHA has fooled people with TYROS.. it's no way a 'pro' arranger. They should have worked on 9000Pro line to make it better.

I would love to have the Fantom-X sound engine in G-70.

KORG PA-1x is some of the few arrangers which let you edit sounds in detail like TRITON... but again they stripped off the effects section of TRITON.

The next difference is the SEQUENCER. The sequencers on PSR and TYROS are a BIG JOKE. I don't know if someone actually uses it to record tracks from scratch. I think mostly people are using it playback MIDI files, and just reassigning the sounds etc. None of the sequencer Editing tools offered on MOTIF ES are available on TYROS.... and the funniest thing is that PSR1500, PSR2000, PSR3000, 9000Pro and TRYOS all have the same joke sequencer. A $3000 keyboard has the same sequencer as the $1000 one. Go figure.

Despite all this, I don't think workstations are capable of the realtime performance features of the Arrangers. And that's why there are arrangers.

You can't really argue that an Arranger is a good workstation, and a Workstation is a good arranger too. They are different.

What we hope is that some company will take the bold step and create a Hybrid keyboard and Merge the feautres of the top workstation and the top arranger WITHOUT dropping any features..

Fooled? The word pro was NOT included in its name. Even so, whether its officially designated as pro or not, the Tyros is MORE than taking care of all my PRO player requiremenets (everyday) for me. - Scott



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http://scottyee.com

Yes, in MY opinion, specially for that price, YAMAHA fooled us. Regardless of the fact wether it's pro or not.

TC,

Your point about cars wasn't bad, but maybe its a generation thing cause it doesnt relate to arrangers. Companies as a matter of fact have bought over far more efficient technology to run cars (newsflash: the US and UK invaded Iraq for that very purpose), but you cant reinvent the wheel so to speak. Four wheels, a body, doors.... (you get the picture).

Arrangers are nothing more than software in a hardware case that could be radically improved over the years, but as ive mentioned in this thread they have gone nowhere. Look around the net for arranger keyboards over the years and you will see simple tech' updates that again are hand-me-downs from workstations.

The P3k is a cutdown Tyros with added technology from the Motif. The 1X is an upgraded 80 that looks lots like the i30 of 6 years ago, only colour screen and a so called improved sound engine and sampling from the T. (Yep, the motif got the tyros megas, but megas are nothing more than multisamples that have existed for over 10 years = hype BS).

Also if you look at styles, we have seen nothing of features like improvisational type accomp's. Why the hell dont korg put in karma features on an arranger? It would hurt karma sales of course, when the karma was actually designed as an arranger in the first place (s kay is a long time arranger user and programmer).

I used to own a Motif 7 but sold it due to money problems. Yamaha could easily, technically put in arranger styles into the pattern sequencer and provide chord recognition for those patterns and provide chord input to help with composition. I would rather wait 3 years for this and pay once than waiting 4 years and pay twice.

As for Roland, man those guys are in need of a good boot up the arse. Their sounds are a bit too polished for my liking and remind me of Phil Collins (LOL), and as for their arranger efforts, again they borrow from the R+D from workstations.

The whole problem/situation looks like THE BIG THREE dont want to scare arranger users off with advanced features and vice-versa - they dont want to scare off synth users with arranger/home type features.

There is of course 'a perfect scenario' and that is to keep arrangers as they are for the lower end users, and those that can't really play (you know, those that didnt attend music conservatory from knee high, didnt go to music college, didnt take the music classes at school, or started after 19yo etc.....). LOL ... and before that comment blackballs me from the bbs, you just know you want to play from knee high in any event!!!!

Anyways the situation here as far as I can see is some people here are either intentionally/unintentionally playing the game. The game looks like putting out the same ol' crap every 2 years and getting the sucker punters to shell out their hard earned cash for yet another bloody upgrade that costs an arm and a leg.

For example I walked into my local store in Manchester recently to see what they had in stock. A few lowender Yammies, no Rolands and one or two Korgs. I asked for a price for the PA1X, the speaker model and got a quote of £2,400. I thought there and then (as some1 who doesnt work in music for a living) that it would take me four years to pay for this on credit, and i would be working 2 and a bit days out of the month to pay for it.

When you really think of it on a larger scale. I'd HATE TO THINK that in any way shape or form any player would buy a keyboard on the viewing of posts on this forum (I once made that foolish mistake ). Many players are clearly stuck in their ways and many are hard for cash and personally it would be nice to think that regulars here take 'RESPONSIBLE' care NOT to put across an ad for the companies.

Getting back to why we're here, its music, and for my money arranger keyboards are in no shape or form as good as they could be and I would rally fellow members here to impress that fact upon manufacturers to get the finger out of their ass to create better products. The new G70 is nothing new.

shakil, i thought the genests pro was both a proffessional arranger and workstation?maybe someone else will comment on this,mike

No marketing muscle behind that LAMER mate.

I like my PSR3000 and for the price it's a great machine. Not perfect - but neither is any one of the other keyboards that are twice the price and more.


------------------
drdalet

The genesys pro does have arranger and “workstation” functions. That and the Korg pax1 are probably the only keyboards I know of that have a decent representation of both arranger and “workstation” capability.

It is not the greatest keyboard; I don’t think there is such a thing but for me I get the most value for the money. It does not have the really really advance “workstation” functions that have been appearing in the new fantum and tritons, but it gets the job done.

The ability to make styles on arrangers gives the keyboard the ability to be up to date with different musical times and feel. Also, having a sampler is just so important today. The ability to load new sounds makes the freshness of the keyboard last longer because you can replace some of the old factory sounds temporarily with newer fresher sounds. You don’t always have to be looking to get the latest keyboard that a manufacture puts out there.

To me it beats having to get a Yamaha motif and a tyros together or a Korg triton and pa-1x. Not that I would not like to have those keyboards because I think that they are great in their own respect.


Now if the genesys were just 76 keys. Or maybe that is what the module is for connecting it to your favorite 76 or 88 controller.

I can not wait for the day that a keyboard manufacture will have all the advance “workstation” and arranger functions, the ability to connect with a computer, with lots of effects and a sampler all in one not too heavy single 76 keyboard or module.

It is probably not a technology issue but a business decision issue.

Yeah, keep up that price thingy, very HARD WORKED FOR in ANY CASE.

The ability to CREATE STYLES takes a college course and a PhD, which is out of the norm for 98% of players, no argument there.

Creating styles for use in a live performance is not rocket science nor is it a cakewalk. Same can be said for creating a song using a sequencer. Knowing the end result you want and how the arranger or sequencer works is the general theme for making styles and songs.

Sequencing a song or creating a style is neither for everyone nor for the faint at heart. To do it right it takes time and patients.

Creating styles is best left to professionals. Have you heard many (over 50) that have been created by non-pro style creators. Of course NOT, it is programming and most of us are not programmers, right?

Actually, I've heard a couple thousand styles created by non-professionals, and many were exceptional. Granted, some are mediocre at best, but a significant number of styles created by amatuers for yammie boards have been outstanding. In order to find them, though, you'll have to do a bit of searching around, listen to them carefully, and in some instances, make some minor modifications. Check out some of the other sites and listen to the styles with an open mind, and use the keyboard they were specifically designed for. If you're listening to styles on your PC, well, lets just say some do not sound good. Put the same style in the right keyboard and it's an entirely different matter.

Cheers,

Gary

In reply to the previous post, ABSOLUTE RUBBISH!!!!!!! Let me hear them or provide a link to usable USER STYLES. Are you on the job?

Digitalvison.100% of the performances that i do with either the various choirs i work with or my own performances were done using my own created styles. I am a gospel music orientated musician. There is yet to be created a factory preset that sounded anywhere near close to contemporary gospel music.

I have a University degree but not in music. I am not a programmer , just someone that gets further into the arranger keyboard than most perhaps.

Thats one of the reasons i have not had to upgrade in terms of new styles beause i make them myself.

digitalvision, I am sure you are not doing this intentionally, but I find some of the language you use, and your last response to Gary, really offensive.

Please be kind ..........

------------------
Graham

Hmmmmm, a little exageration there?
There are lots of opinions available here from lots of brilliant musicians. A little sugar coating might yield better results from those that can help you. Try not to alienate all of us at once now.

Perhaps you should check out styles at www.psrtutorial.com After you go through a couple thousand of them, then come back and post something you've created. We would all like to hear your creations.

BTW, I've been making a damned good living with many of those styles for a lot of years, and I for one am thankful to those that tookl the time to create them. If you have something better, we would all be more than happy to listen to them.

Cheers,

Gary