Hi Diki
Seeing your post in the Medeastation thread, I thought I would mention that you have been able to use VST instruments with styles since OAS 5, (2003) and they have been greatly expanded in OAS 7.
As for Drums, OAS 6 includes the features mentioned below. (Again they have been expanded in OAS 7)
1. 64 slots for User kits which can be loaded or existing ones edited.
2. Individual drum sounds can be loaded in a kit. (This includes Wave samples from elsewhere)
3. General Editing Features for the whole kit include Volume, Reverb and Delay.
4. For each individual drum sound in the kit, the following can be edited, Volume, Panorama, Dynamic, Reverb, Delay.
Tuning of each drum sound can be in semitones and cents
Envelope adjustment for each drum sound include, Attack, Velocity to Attack, and Decay
Filter controls for each drum sound include, Filter Cut and Filter at velocity
All drum sounds loaded can be up to 24 bit resolution.
As a final point have you had a chance to listen to the old demos I have posted? http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/014692.html

I am curious to see what you think, as OAS 5/6 was released during the Tyros 1, KN7000 era.
Enjoy whatever you play

Bill

I honestly think the sound (and potential sound) of the Wersis is far better than the MS (obviously - they've been around for a long time and have the kinks knocked out by now) and can show what a hybrid can do. Amazing!

BUT....... (it wouldn't be me without one of those!) the price point and weight both weigh heavily against the Wersi's, especially in the US, where they are impossible to find, listen to, and service quickly in the event of a failure.

They really are the way of the future, but as anyone that bought a 42" plasma TV three years ago can tell you, being ahead of the curve is an incredibly expensive proposition, and the Neko's, Mediastations and Muse stuff are all showing an interest in this type of product, at a fraction of the Wersi's price.

I think that if Wersi slashed their prices in half, they would quadruple their sales, and Wersi would have the market cornered, but while they stick to their high-end Scala model of 'build the best and you can charge anything you want, because there IS no competition', guys like Lionstracs slowly (too slowly for me!) utilize the same technology at a fraction of the price, and relegate you to obscurity, if you are not prepared to compete.

Hammond, Wurlitzer, Lowery, all these guys ignored the trend towards keyboard synths and workstations for so long, the market just completely bypassed them, and now they are gone or marginalized. Wersi have an opportunity to avoid this mistake, but only if they act quickly. Technology waits for no man, the power of computers continues to leap ahead, and if Wersi wait while others gradually catch up at lower prices, that's going to be hard to recover from.

As to the weight issue, look, I know Wersi's are built like a tank, last forever, yada yada yada, but my G70, at 20.3kg is also built like a tank, and I have no doubt as to it's durability (especially as I gigged a G1000 constantly for 8 years, at least five night s a week, without a trace of problems). Modern construction techniques and modern materials show you don't have to weigh 30kg+ (60lbs or more for the US readers) to be durable.

Arrangers traditionally tend to be the choice of older players, and about 20kg is about the cutoff point most solo performers are willing (reluctantly!) to lug around. Many (most!) would prefer less, but I for one understand about stability and durability. But if others can make durable products at 20kg, why not Wersi?

Anyway, I enjoyed the demos, thought they showed what a mature hybrid system is capable of, but simply can't justify that kind of money and weight for something I can already do at home with a computer, and on the road with a laptop (or iMac) for a fraction of the price. Get it into MS's price range, or lower, and the Wersi is a no-brainer. It's a leap I think Wersi are going to have to make, otherwise they may go the way of the Lowery......

Hi Diki
Thanks for listening. BTW Have you seen the size, weight and price of the organs Lowery are producing these days?
Regards

Bill

Exactly, and are you aware of their sales numbers? You want to play with the big boys, you've got to ship volume.... Lowery sell a TINY fraction of the sales they had in the 60s and 70s. I don't think Wersi really want to walk that path, do they?

Yamaha, Roland, both these guys make boutique organs at exorbitant price and weight, BUT...... they make the majority of money on synths and arrangers more in the affordable end of things. Ford make the GT and the Focus...

Perhaps Wersi think they can grow and prosper with the high-end only, but as technology races ahead, the gap between high-end arranger hybrids and the MS's of the world get smaller and smaller, until you ARE Lowery, relegated to building just a few expensive units for collectors and enthusiasts, while others reap the benefits of the technology that you pioneered in the first place, but failed to capitalize on.....

If that's what they want, more power to them, but talk about one here at SZ, and it's kind of like a McLaren F1 owner trying to post on a Honda Civic forum....

If Domenik can put a hybrid together at that price point, it proves it can be done. Wersi could do the same, and have the HUGE advantage that their software and styles already work.... no promises of 'it'll work after the NEXT update', ad nauseam. Do they REALLY want to abandon the market to hungrier, more economically aggressive companies?

I hope not.....

I noticed on your website's biography that you purchased your Abacus used, at about half price (?) and had to update it yourself a couple of times (it had OAS4 when you got it?)

If you were in a situation of having to buy a new one, would you REALLY be willing to pay that much....?

Hi Dikki
YES, without any hesitation.

Bill

What do you think of the practicality of Wersi entering the more mass market? I think there's no time to lose. Just imagine what would happen to OAS sales if Domenik ever got his act together.....

Difficult to say as Wersi has always been a niche market product.
As to the threat from Mediastation, Wersi management and engineers are fully aware of its potential.

I don't care how advanced a workstation or arranger keyboard is the simple fact that the Wersi, Mediastation, Oasys, and NEKO's price point is where its at will always limit their sales potential. This is true with any product developed for a niche market. Few people require the features these workstations and arrangers have to offer and for those of us that do, price is generally not of great concern.

If Wersi or Lionstracs built an arranger with sampling, synthesis, VST support, sequencing, hard disk recording, vocal harmonizer, and 76 keys that only weighed 30-40 pounds but the cost was $5,000.00 or more, few people would buy it. Case in point is the Wersi Ikarus which has all of these features and yet relatively few people own one. Price point is a major concern and no matter how hard a manufacturer tries, they can't build something of great quality on the cheap.

Even if Wersi or Lionstracs had a stronger presence in the US market sales would not "sky rocket". After selling high end pro audio gear for over 25 years... I've yet to ever see any single product that costs more than $5K be a runaway hit selling thousands of units let alone tens of thousands.

You are right

Anyway, do not forget that the MS is working under Windows XP too, like the Neko.
All the XP software is developed forn one French company and they in some months will try to offer the Windows package too.
Still a lot of OS, task and latency problems but maybe someday they can make some nice too.
here are some shoots.. http://www.lionstracs.com/data/mediastationXP/Msgigastudio.JPG http://www.lionstracs.com/data/mediastationXP/MSXParranger.JPG
http://www.lionstracs.com/data/mediastationXP/MSXParrangerdesk.JPG
http://www.lionstracs.com/data/mediastationXP/MSXPB4.JPG http://www.lionstracs.com/data/mediastationXP/MSXPdesktop.JPG http://www.lionstracs.com/data/mediastationXP/MSXPmenu.JPG

You can then also booting from Linux MS OS partition or by Windows XP partition, so 2 workstation in one. ( double money saved...LOL)

The demand for these hybrid keyboards is VERY high, they are not a 'niche' market product..... The only reason they are 'niche' products right now is that few people can afford them at the price point they are currently at.

Domenik's MS is at a considerably lower price point than any Wersi, and to be honest, if it actually did what it claimed, I would probably have one by now. In fact, the MS's price and weight point should be making Wersi VERY worried, right about now.

You lump all those different keyboards together, and label them 'high-end', but miss the point..... Lionstracs are severely cutting Wersi's price-point (remember, an Abacus lists at close to $9k, doesn't it?) and if it ever really gets it all together, who's going to pay DOUBLE for the same thing?

Factor in the rapid improvements of computer technology, and I liken where Wersi are at now to the organ market of the 70s...... watching things get out of hand, newer technology comes along and does what the behemoth organs do (and more!) at a fraction of the price and weight. And it does nothing, smug in the self-satisfaction of 'It will always be OK for organs, people will always pay lots of money for boutique home entertainment'..... and in the meantime, the portable arranger decimates your sales.

Too slow...........

All I've been trying to point out is that Wersi, because they have the field entirely to themselves, chose to go the high-end (VERY high-end) route in pricing policy. This only works when you have no competition. Domenik is the first..... there will be even more coming soon, I guarantee.

The fact that an entire instrument can be designed entirely in software drastically reduces the startup cost of any company seeking to enter this market, common OS's (Linux, Windows) reduce the cost of developing expensive proprietary code, everything about this new hybrid technology screams mass market.

So, inevitably (and Domenik is the sharp end of this attack) more and more players will enter this field. Imagine what would happen if the Big 3 decided to enter it? Wouldn't Wersi prefer to be the dominant leader and everybody else have to struggle to gain a foothold, or will they prefer to stay selling boutique arrangers and organs, while some hungrier startup scavenges your sales.....?

If they decide to trickle down their technology to affordable ($3-5k) arrangers, they may be able to stop the up and comers, but if they sit in their $10k+ ivory tower, Domenik and his like are going to eat you alive.

After all, essentially these things are a computer in a keyboard case. We already know how much (or rather, how little!) a computer costs. And it certainly isn't $9000. It's the software you are paying for, and everybody's experience with software has shown that this year's killer $500 app is next year's $100 bargain, is the next year's freeware. I obviously exaggerate, but that's the general trend. Wersi are at the top of what is going to be a VERY volatile market for the next three or four years (technology moves so fast, it is hard to imagine that these hybrids WON'T be fully mature by then).

And be careful about claims of exclusivity..... If the ultra-high-end arrangers think they are doing a job nothing else can, that's only a factor if that job CAN'T be done any other way... The Oasys is a case in point. It's twice as expensive as any other workstation out there, sounds great, yada yada yada, but watch any TV show and 9 times out of 10, the keyboard player is playing a MotifES or Triton Extreme, etc.. The job doesn't dictate an Oasys, it can be performed VERY adequately without one. So sales of Oasys's are pretty slow.... those that have them appreciate them, but others with less capable rigs are still getting the call, so it's not like you HAVE to have one to gig.

A T2, a PA1X, an E80/G70, all of these, in the hands of a skillful player, are capable of making music that the average audience would be VERY hard pressed to differentiate from a Wersi, so why pay 2 or even 3 or 4 times the cost of one of these for a Wersi? I can see paying 50% more for the VST stuff, but not 2-300% more...... Obviously, Domenik thinks that is the price point he can sell them at, and still make a profit, but Wersi need twice as much?

After all, I still haven't heard anything from Wersi that made me go 'Oh my God! I GOTS to get one of these!'... I've heard plenty of stuff that made me go 'yes, that sounds a bit better than my G70' but I can't honestly say I've heard anything that made me say 'now THAT'S worth $6000 more!'

What's the feature touted the most in the new OAS? The ability to play Yamaha styles without a translation (although not one of the translations I've heard sounded BETTER than the original, just adequate - but still quite an achievement!). Why would anyone that just payed $10k for an arranger even have to NEED a translated style? At that price point, it should have a library of completely BETTER than Yamaha styles!

Anyway, I guess my point is, if Wersi ignore the regular high-end price point (I consider them the ULTRA-high point!) and refuse to compete in the $3-5k market, the day that a hybrid works capably at that price point, Wersi will never sell another arranger. I'm pretty sure they don't want that, but unless they start NOW (they are a very small company, this will take time) working on competing with stuff we won't see for 2 or 3 years, when the competition DOES come out (and it will!) you won't be able to recover fast enough and 'poof!' no more expensive OAS updates every few years..... no more Wersi.

Sounds stupid, doesn't that....? Ask any organ manufacturer from the 70's how stupid that sounds......

Saying the demand for these hybrids is "very high" isn't true because there is no way that a manufacturer can build the product at the price point needed to make the demand "high" let alone "very high". If there are so many people ready to buy a Wersi or Lionstracs they certainly haven't done so. I'd love to have a Ferrari but I don't expect Ferrari to "dumb it down" so that it can be cheap enough for me to afford one. Some things just aren't meant for the mass market and that's OK.

Lionstracs is continually improving the Mediastation and with each new OS release I'm sure that Wersi is worried it will take some sales away from them. Will it put Wersi out of business... probably not. What Wersi has done with OAS is far more than just software, they've integrated their software and hardware so well that they really don't have any competition to date. While you could buy a computer and load it with VST's, a sampler, and FX, it will never operate like a system that was designed from the ground up to be an all in one device. Domenik's doing a damned good job at coming close to the Wersi but Wersi has about a 5 year jump on him when it comes to their GUI, factory sounds, and hardware layout. Even Korg's Oasys which has a very nice GUI isn't on par with the Wersi.

Wersi has allowed their technology to trickle down by making the Ikarus and Xenios, both of which are much cheaper than the Abacus, Scala, and Louvre but offer almost all the same features. Wersi did have to utilize different materials to cut costs and there aren't as many real time controls but these are very nice instruments for the money.

If and when the competition gets stiffer I am sure that Wersi may opt to make a plastic, pseudo pro version of the OAS system but once they do, their reputation for build quality will take a hit. One thing you may not be considering is this... when new technology becomes available Wersi can integrate that into their systems, create new software that's more advanced than the competition, and still sell a product that is at the forefront of technology. Wersi has always been a company that has been far ahead of its time and I don't see any reason why they aren't forward thinking when it comes to new products they will release.

In the near future open ended systems will be the norm from Yamaha, Korg, Roland, Wersi, Lionstracs, and others. Who sells well will be determined by their feature set, sounds, styles, upgradeability, and of course price (price drives sales). Anyone who comes out with a $5K+ keyboard is going to limit their market, that's just a fact.

[This message has been edited by Ensnareyou (edited 12-22-2006).]

Sorry, but I still fail to see how you are missing the significance of Domenik virtually halving the price of an open system arranger. You still talk as if the MS and the Wersi are in the same price bracket. THEY ARE NOT....!

I said there is enormous demand for a hybrid arranger, NOT a hybrid arranger at Wersi's inflated pricing...... We've all been saying for the last few years how great it would be if our arrangers would run some VST instruments. Plenty of demand, just no-one (until Domenik) willing to take a crack at providing it at a price close to what traditional high-end arrangers already like T2 and E80 cost. He's only the first.... there WILL be others. Eventually, they will succeed.

Every manufacturer that ever had the ground pulled out from under him by an upstart that figured out how to do something better, and cheaper, they stood around while the rumblings went on, and then cried 'I never saw it coming!'

I'm telling you - 'IT'S COMING!'

This is why Wersi R & D is fully funded.

There's my whole point in a nutshell.... First, Wersi's attitude, then the inevitable future.......

Just because they DON'T make an affordable OAS arranger doesn't mean they CAN'T, but while they have the market lead is the time to move into the (to your mind) mid-priced (to the rest of us, high-priced!) arranger market, NOT after Yamaha or Korg (or Lionstracs!) have already got working product out.....

Wersi don't have to go flimsy Yamaha build
quality on us.... just build it as strong as a G70, and they'll never have any complaints....

I am kind of between both Dikki and Ensareyou's points of view.Both wersi and liontracks in my opinion may well be left in the dust if there is truly a demand for open system arranger keyboards in the market place. The one thing we all agree on is that the technology itself is not expensive and to manufacture these units on mass by organised mature companies is not difficult. What is dificult is communicating the benefit of these products to the marketplace in a way that they want ,can understand and will purchase at those prices. It is a niche market but not simply because of the price. The products themselves are a step change to the traditional ideas about arrangers and that needs to be communicated better with clearer more simple messages. The amount of times i have been swamped with technical gobbledy gook when a simple demonstration would have demistified the whole thing is a case in point ! Wersi, liontracks and Neko have failed to properly market their instruments and the benefits that set them apart from the competition. If Korg,Roland or yamaha see that there is a market for these types of machines (as far as the arranger market is concerned ) they have the experience , the slickness to market them effectively to sell them in far higher proportions which will in itself provide them a cushion for a lower price point.

Dikki is right that if Liontracks really can pull off a fully functioning open system at its current price , it will have mass market appeal only however if it is marketed effectively. That means good literature in english, good demos by competant musicians, ease of purchase and wide distribution and servicing or product support.

Wersi seem content with their product and its current price and dont seem to want to actually promote their product to a wider audience. But i am sure that someone will and if they do, I am sure diki is right, they will take Wersi's market too.

I am not at all certain you need good manuals, good demos.....on and on and.... The young people of today will be very computer literate and will beable to check everything out on a regular computer and a cheap midi controller keyboard attached. If they like the software approach and want a better control surface and they have the money they will buy a Wersi, MS or something similar. It just is not a big issue in my view. In fact, I can navigate around all this stuff and I am consider mentally handicapped by people in high places. So if I can do it anybody can do it.

[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 12-22-2006).]

it depends on whether you believe people buy concepts and equipment or whether they are sold concepts and equipment. I belive they are sold these things. Manufactureres can ignor marketing at their peril