I just received a telephone call 'out of the blue' today from guess who? Yamaha of all people. What a surprise, and a pleasant one at that. Steve Deming, head of Yamaha USA customer support says he reads our Synthzone arranger forum daily and offered to answer any questions I had about the Tyros. Needless to say, I was more than surprised (stunned) to find that a huge company like Yamaha would take the 'sole initiative', on their own, to call me personally, spending nearly an hour to candidly answer any and all questions I had about the Tyros.

Here's what he shared with me. The Tyros styles which utilize the new mega voices have all been re-sequenced (recorded) at Yamaha's new higher 1,920 ppq resolution in order to better capture all the playing sublties of mega voice samples. He concured with me that the higher midi timing resolution is a key contributing factor which makes these new styles really come alive. What makes the mega voices so special is that consist of 'multiple' digital samples containing various different tonal nuances of a single instrument. Each sample is triggered by 'how hard' you press the keys. Graduations in between the velocity points accentuate different tonal changes. The advantage is that instead of using midi controllers to effect the tonal changes, you instead hear an actual sound sample of the different tonal qualities of an individual instrument, and not just the change of a tonal filter, etc. Yamaha also included other characteristics like string buzz and body resonance as well. The acoustic guitars include velocity sensitive response so if you press the note harder, the pitch of the note is scooped up from the note 1/2 step below. Not only are the mega voices new, but many of the other sounds have been re-voiced as well. I personally believe the Yamaha styles are not revolutionarily new, but instead GREATLY IMPROVED (tweaked).

The Tryos is backwardly compatiable and will play earlier PSR styles. Steve also confirmed that the Tyros OS is not really new, but based on the CV209 and the PSR2000. Because of this, he claims that the current Tyros OS has proven (so far) to be bug free. I say, we'll see.

I asked him to recommend a more rugged (giggable) speaker alternative to the Tyros speakers themselves, and he recommended the Yamaha MSP5 as an excellent match for hi quality on stage monitoring. These are bi-amped needing no sub woofer. I just checked the weight (16 lbs/each) which is a bit heavier than I'd prefer. Perhaps the lighter MSP3 (8 lbs) would surfice. http://yamaha.com/menuitems/panelviews/proaudio/MSP5/MSP5.htm

Steve also mentioned that Yamaha is marketing the Tyros as a Workstation, and not as an arranger, even though it's arranger function is what sets it apart from the Motif, etc. Hopefully this marketing approach will expand arrangers to a broader pro audience. Steve also noted that Yamaha is actively shifting the marketing direction of arrangers from the traditionally older 'home organ consumer' market to include a younger contemporary market, and also to appeal to both pro & home user. They are expanding their arranger styles to include more contemporary styles & sounds yet still maintain the classic big band and traditional styles which appeal to all ages.

On the subject of Tyros Flash Rom-able OS: Steve assured me that the Tyros is indeed flash-ROM-able, but that it's a hefty 40MB in size. Flash ROM updates are installed via USB (running at midi speed: 32.5kb/sec) so would take 30 minutes to perform. The risk of updating is that if your PC crashes during this time, you lose everything and would need to return the KB to Yamaha for chip replacement. The good news is that the chance of your computer dying while updating is relatively rare. Still these are risks to consider. The other option of course would be to have Yamaha perform the update (doing the same thing) but that means even more down KB time. Steve advised me that Yamaha hasn't made a final decision in how the OS updates will be made available (CD or website download) yet, but he told me he is pressing for website download availability. Whatever the decision, I'm at least happy to hear that the Tyros is GUARANTEED to be Flash Rom upgradeable.

Even with my enthusiam with the Tyros MP3 demos I've heard, I still plan to wait till I have an opportunity to play the Tyros 'in person' before making my final decision of going with Tyros or not. So far though, I'm both encouraged and excited about the prospects. Of course I haven't forgotten about Ketron and the personal customer support they've provided, even to me as not even a Ketron kb owner. I'm specifically speaking of Sandro Fontenella in Italy, who took the time to listen to my suggestion of adding more advanced keyboard voicings to the Ketron line, and then implementing all my recommendations. Now knowing Steve Deming at Yamaha is reading our forum regularly as well, I'm convinced that even the BIG corporate giants are finally listening to us too. Keep posting your thoughts, wishes, and complaints. I can't speak for the other companies, but Steve Deming (Yamaha) assures me he reads everything we are saying here. He did mention he's remaining on the side lines and not actually going to post on the forum. Long live arranger keyboards. - Scott

That's a very clever idea of Yamaha to advertise the Tyros as a "workstation" Maybe this will bring more professionals to the arranger market.... It's high time arrangers started getting some attention here in the US... I'm very impressed that Yamaha called you about this, and that they follow this forum. Honestly everyone we must be one unique group of people here... Where at in the US can you find so many dedicated arranger users.....????? All arranger companies could only better themselves by following the posts here..

Squeak

Scott,
Sounds almost the same conversation that I had with Steve. I never had anyone from Korg call me, but they did answer one E mail after I hounded my dealer for a week.
Terry

Hello Scott ,

I think Yamaha was protecting their assets !

dano

Terry,
I'm sure Jerry helped you lots of times in Irish act

Vic,
Refresh my memory then will you please? The only thing I recall was arguing over styles that never came while I owned the PA. I had questions with both the Karma and the Triton Rack and except for the one mentioned E mail. They never answered any of my E mails with support questions.

I think Jerry K is a good guy with a good heart but Korg IMO pays quite a bit more attention to their Triton Classic & Studio owners and treat the PA owners like orphan children.

I am not at all impressed with Korg's support nor ever have been and is one of the major reasons I sold my PA.

We had to scream and kick and complain to get synthmeister's brand new broken keyboard replaced. Gj had to resort to off official sources to get his data replaced for his card. That is not even passable support to me, that gets a failing grade.

So as I said refresh my memory with all that Jerry did for me at IA. Many questions I asked went totally unanswered.

On the moss and future expansion card, Daz was the guy who finally jumped in and helped me out.

When companies do good I say so, but when they don't I also say so.
Terry

[This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 10-17-2002).]

HI: Scott
Thanks for sharing the info with us.
I'm glad to hear the Tyros is Flash Rom upgradeable, but it is a little scary to think if
the AC power goes out, or your computer crashes, you would have to send it back
to Yamaha to have a chip replaced.

I wonder if the other KB's would have to be sent back for a chip if the AC power went
out, or the floppy drive went on the fritz in the middle of a OS upgrade.

Enjoying the 9000 PRO
Denny
PS: Thank You to Steve Deming also


[This message has been edited by dlstarry (edited 10-17-2002).]

Great report Scott, Thanks to you and the Yamaha source.
Keep us informed.
Bebop

Scott,
I will not buy a Tyros, because I am quite happy with my actual arranger. So I have nothing against YAMAHA. Actually, all my YAMAHA Gear is an old CS01 synth.

But, please, evaluate two things very carefully

1) If someone will tell me that its software is bug free... well, I'll go to buy another one, 'cause this guy is trying to screw me.
Software cannot be free of bugs, even because a software bug can arise due to an hardware failure.

2) The OS update question is unacceptable, because the time needed, the file size and the risk of a crash. If I properly understand, if the OS update procedure will be interrupted, the board should be send to YAMAHA for chip replacing. Now you know that AC failure is just one of an infinite row of update procedure interrruption: PC hardware failure, TYROS hardware failure, bad cable, bad cable insertion, PC software failure, TYROS software failure....

But, finally, point #2 is not so important: if TYROS OS is bug free, why will you need an OS update?

Ciao
Riccardo

[This message has been edited by RicFreak (edited 10-18-2002).]

[This message has been edited by RicFreak (edited 10-18-2002).]

Scott,

I agree with Riccardo - consider the Murphy's main software axiom: "Every software product has a bug."
It's an axiom, you don't have to prove it and it's true in generall...

Second thing: USB 2.0 supports transfer rate up to 480 Mb/s (USB 1.x supports up to 1.5 Mb/s), on usual Flash Cards up to 1 MB/s can be written, but "Flash ROM updates are installed via USB (running at midi speed: 32.5kb/sec)".
So I don't quite understand the meaning of the USB interface in Tyros, if it runs with the MIDI speed.
I have a digital camera with an usual Sandisk Flash Card. If I download (upload) the images from this card via USB 1.1 interface, 40 MB transfer takes approx. 80 seconds. The probability that the computer crashes during this time is ca. 0! (I took the time my computer runs; number of crashes during the last 6 months; I computed the average number of crashes a day and multiplied it with 80 seconds).

Regards

Marek

Riccardo & Marek,
Having talked with Steve also and Scott. They never said it would be bug free. To the contrary, in my post about my conversaation with Steve, I mentioned he was straight up about it.

The question becomes what type of bug and whether or not the average user will run into them or not, or will they be deeper bugs. They know that there will be bugs or possibilities of them and is why the o/s is upgradeable.

As far as the time it takes to upgrade. I have some equipment that reads and writes pretty fast and other stuff that slugs. Any equipment I own that follows this sort of procedure for upgrading always comes with the warning..."do not shut off the power during this procedure."

Is this the best scenario for upgrading this or any keyboard? Probably not. Have we all looked at many products and said "if I designed this thing I would have...." I know I have.

A few key things:
1. It is upgradeable if necessary. 2. It is a proven o/s which has been very stable 3. Worst case scenario is, it may have to be sent back to Yamaha to upgrade.

Think about your present equipment do the bugs that it has render it useless? No, usually they are more annoyances than, it quits working.

It is my understanding that for all the PSR 2000 moaning about the non flash o/s that no-one has sent their unit back to Yamaha to upgrade it. They all seem to be still working and making some pretty good music.

My new car (a year old now) has had some bugs in it and has to go back to the dealer from time to time too and it costs alot more than the Tyros does.
Terry

[This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 10-18-2002).]

Hi Terry,

I did not want to complain about Tyros (I'll hear today in the evening a Tyros presentation, so I am very curious, how it sounds), but I'm a little bit surprised (confused) from the upgrade speed. In generall, the music industry seems always to be one step (one generation) behind the computer industry, e.g.
* the flash size in the PSR 9000/9000 Pro - they were provided with 1.8 MB in the age, when 32 MB Flash Card cost a few dollars,
* harddisk and floppy disk controller in PSR 9000 is extremely (but really extremely) slow, like in old 8086 (XT) computers,
* and now the upgrade of 40 MB big operating system via USB interface should take 30 minutes: in days, when the hardware allows to do it within a few seconds.

> It is my understanding that for all the PSR 2000 moaning about the non flash o/s
> that no-one has sent their unit back to Yamaha to upgrade it.
I assume that many home-users think, that they can "live" with the small problems rather than to have some inconveniencies - to pack the keyboard, go to the dealer, wait x minutes (days???) for an update and return home.

But an operating system upgrade is not done daily and therefore this small disadvantage of Tyros can be neglected compared to the new sounds, features, etc.

Regards

Marek

Terry (and all the others),
I absolutely don't want to move some of you away from Yamaha Tyros or whatever other gear.

I simply expressed my ideas and my sensations about a couple of sentences inside Scottyee message.

We all know that the choice of a musical instrument is a matter of reason and passion, and often we fall in love with a piece of gear despite its defects.

I am the first in this, 'cause I love my old Fender Jaguar so much, and I will nevel sell it, even if I perfectly know that there are many others better guitars.

That said, what I've done in my previous message is trying to see things from a different perspective, making you aware of possible cons. It is up to you to evaluate my consideration and decide if they have sense or not.

Finally, to be completely honest, I love my actual arranger despite its defects and its lack of support.

Ciao
Riccardo

Riccardo & Marek,
I cannot disagree with anything you have said, even in your original posts and the discussion back and forth of pros and cons is absolutely necessary here, or there is no reason for this forum to exist IMO. That's what I was doing in my reply....just discussing the pros and cons.

My real bottom line to all of this is....this is not a heart transplant, it's a keyboard. If I hate it in the first 30 days, I will return it. If I learn to hate it after and it bothers me enough I will sell it trade it or do whatever with it. This is not my first keyboard and hopefully I will live long enough that it will not be my last and if I don't then it really doesn't matter.
Terry



[This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 10-18-2002).]

Scott,

Thanks for the report. And thanks to Steve and Yamaha for answering your questions. Public relations is always good for everyone, the company and the customer. As far as software bugs go, if we waited for bug-free software, we never would buy anything with software. It is difficult to anticipate every bug that might occur. I know, I've been writing software for several decades. I don't think this will be a problem with the Tyros since it is based on a previous architecture. This keyboard is sounding better and better all the time. Thanks again, Scott and Yamaha.

Peter

Too bad there is no SmartMedia (or other flash memory) slot. This would be useful for upgrading the OS, as well as transferring files to and from the HD.

Ahhhhhh, if only Korg would ever do this...

I have so much korg stuff, Trinity, I30, Korg pedal effects, tuners, etc.....
They left me orphean, with my trinity and I30....If only..

Marek >>> the reason for the slow Tyros' USB speed is because its main use is for transferring MIDI data. Basically, the USB clock is set to that speed.

Being a Motif owner with the same situation, the speed is okay for the occassional file transfer/voice editing (and MIDI of course), but little else.

Q.

As a computer programmer, I can tell you that it certainly is *possible* to produce bug-free software. However, in a system as complex as the Tyros, the chances of doing so are slim. In any event, being that this is not a new OS, chances are that the vast majority of bugs present will never cause any problems. Windows (any flavor) has anywhere between thousands and tens of thousands of bugs, but most of them don't have any ill effects 99.9999% of the time. Enjoy the music.

Originally posted by trtjazz:


Well said Terry, my exact feelings
Lou

[This message has been edited by Lou Y (edited 10-18-2002).]

Lou,
Must be because great minds think alike.
Terry

Terry,
I woun't argu with you about korg but I just wanted to give credit to jerry because he is teh only person that really helped us and is 100% trying hard to get our needs done.

Scott, sorry for talking about somthing out of the main topic.thanx for the Explantion. that call you got was very intresting too. Yamaha as clif said should of put somekind of smart media card. doesn't the Tyros have a USB. and have the same speed as the motif?then they could probably use somthing liek a smartmedia card reader/writer and connect it to Tyros's USB and update it and there is no worry about computers or any thing.that is if it can do it...what do you think?



[This message has been edited by vic83 (edited 10-18-2002).]

Vic,
I don't want to argue either.

Now....the smart media reader is an excellent idea....why can't we hook a smart reader, which are cheap, to the USB in of the Tyros and let it read upgrades that way?

Terry

One question that is puzzling me is: why should you need to reprogram the Flash ROM through the USB interface, if you have an internal Hard Disk ? On my PSR9k I have done it using the Hard Disk (SCSI), storing the OS first on the HD. So, if you have a HD, then it should be possible to store the new OS first on the HD (via the USB). Thus, the speed of the USB interface would not really matter (assuming it is slow). The only thing that would matter is how fast you can load the new OS from the internal HD (given that the loading should not be interrupted, the faster it is the smaller the chances of e.g. a power failure during the loading).

By the way the Tyros cannot read Smart Media cards (or any device for that matter) via the USB. It can only be a USB slave, i.e. some active device like a PC is needed to be connected to the Tyros for transferring data.

Kari

That's great that Yamaha called you Scott. I am not worried about the Tyros having disturbing bugs. We haven't heard anything from any of the current owners of the Tyros about bugs.

It's disappointing, however, that with such risks to upgrading the OS, it is unlikely there will be upgrades solely to deliver improved features, but who knows?

Kari, a floppy disk upgrade would require 25 floppies. That would be too much.

Whether a company provides good customer support to protect their own assets as Dano asserted or if they do it just to be good people is of little difference. It's good to have customer support.

I have found that I do get good support from Yamaha. They always have answered my questions within 48 hours. They do call back. It would be great if they had 24 hour personnel who would answer intricate questions about keyboard functions at 3 in the morning, but that might be asking too much.

I'm on the fence about this Tyros thing. It is so expensive, and money is so tight for my family these days.

Beakybird

Beakybird, Yes 25 floppies are too much. The idea I had was to first store the new OS on the internal HD of the Tyros. This can be done through the USB with a PC. This may take a long time ( 3 hours ! for 40 MB with the slow Midi transfer rate of 30 kbit/sec). If this transfer is interrupted by e.g. a power failure, you can simply restart it. No harm was done, except the wasted time !

After that you should be able to start the flash update from the internal HD of the Tyros. This should be much faster, thus reducing the risk of interruption.

I would be very interested to hear from Yamaha whether the Tyros supports the above mentioned procedure.

Kari

I would be interested to know why Smartmedia support is not present. The smartmedia interface hardware is hardly expensive and writing the software shouldn't be that tricky; the smartmedia data organisation information I've found on the web looks very like an extension of the storage strategy used on floppy discs. I have a vague memory that Smartmedia can also be referred to as SSFD -Solid State Floppy Disc.

Kari,
That would be a cool idea if that would work. Or the smart card idea would also be cool. I expect the Tyros pro will make some other provision for better upgrading. I am somewhat surprised that this possibility was overlooked early in the design process.
Terry

[This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 10-21-2002).]

This was an interesting post because it is refreshing to confirm that someone at Yamaha pays attention to what is said in discussion groups about their products. The level of interaction between customers and manufacturers is often unecessarily constricted.

One thought may relate to some of the questions being tossed up here: the large and rather bulky OS for the Tyros confirms that there is a huge amount of code that has been written for the Tyros and the other home instruments that share it. Yamaha won't be upgrading this OS very often, if at all, because of the sheer expense involved in writing/rewriting this much code, sending out the updates, and manning the tech support and repair desks for people who will inevitably have problems performing the upgrade. In other words, you'd better like the Tyros a lot as it is because changes will come slowly or not at all.

Also, it would seem likely and logical that Yamaha is consolidating it's keyboard operating systems, using the same OS for several different models. While it's possible that Yamaha may eventually create a 76 or 88 note "Tyros Pro" model, I imagine that if Yamaha makes a Pro version at all they will now simply put the same Tyros OS and sound generator into a rack-mount version that would keep the overall Tyros features and just add a few desireable hardware features such as balanced XLR mic input and MLAN/digital outputs (especially if they want to market the "Tyros Workstation" to pro studio users). That would give pro users the option of using their own 76 or 88 note controller and studio-level interfaces without Yamaha going to great development expense with a whole new keyboard.

Just musings...

Pro,
Yamaha doesn't really seem to be into making "rack" mounts of their more popular instruments....like the Motif, or a rack with sweet and live sounds. So I'm not so sure there will be a Tyros Rack in the future.
Terry

Terry: you could well be right and the Motif series is a good example. On the other hand, Yamaha may not want to disenfranchise their Motif owners with yet-another-keyboard -workstation so this could be the perfect time for them to release a rack-mount Tyros to compliment, rather than compete with, the Motifs. OR, maybe the new MegaVoices could be put on an expansion card so they could be used with the Motifs, PLUS the new exp. card and MV Styles could be used on the 9000Pro! Nah, forget it - that's way too good of an idea for a Monday...

Pro, you are right about forgetting it: Yamaha will never do such a thing, otherwise all the 9000 Pro owners would never sell their keyboards to buy a Tyros.