Several computer programs have a feature, either in audio or in MIDI, where the program is CONSTANTLY in 'record' mode, no matter what you are doing. If a magic moment strikes while you are doodling or just messing around, even if the program isn't in Record mode, it still buffers the recording, and you can recall it after the fact.

Does anyone think that, at least in MIDI form (I would imagine the ability to cache live audio would be difficult in most arrangers), this would be a useful addition to an arranger' features?

Most modern arrangers have a sequencer that can capture what is being played in it's entirety (apart from audio through the harmonizer!). But you always have to set it up and arm it before it will start recording. Why not just have the thing in permanent background 'record'? That way, no inspired moment would ever get lost... (or really terrible moment, for that matter!)

What do you think?

The Tyros2 with optional HD, and the PSR-S900 with a USB flashdrive can capture a recording, including vocals(or even another keyboard or instrument plugged into it) but it is not "on" all the time.

I vaguely remember a buddy of mine having an Ensoniq keyboard that had this feature, although it wasn't an arranger.

Might be useful...but a good editing system would be important to have with it.

Ian

My understanding is that it would 'capture' to the same sequencer that currently has to be armed. So the editing capabilities would be the same ones as if you sequenced normally, and that varies model by model.

But even if it only recorded to a dedicated area that offered nothing other than the ability to name it and save it as an SMF, it could STILL be opened by the arranger's own sequencer and edited there...

Although the hard drive and USB audio recorders are handy tools, you can basically forget any kind of editing (can't fix one bad note in a chord once it is audio!), so I still think that MIDI capture is the best option, and probably the easiest to implement...

I was just talking to my buddy...he had an Ensoniq ZR-76 and the recording feature was called an "Idea Pad".

It didn't record audio...still in then future back then...but he said he found it useful.

How would an always on "capture sequencer" utilize memory...would there be a limit?

Ian

I've got a 60GB HD installed on my Tyros2. I kinda remember reading (in the T2 manual?) that you can continuously record audio (as long as you have free space available) for a certain maximum amount of time per recording take, but just don't remember what that maximum buffer time limit is: 30, 60, 90, or 120 minutes? Anybody here know?

I thought that Yamaha midi sequencers (both T2 & S900) as well as Roland, Korg, etc sequencers allow you to simply turn on rec, and allow you to record whatever is played for a certain amount of time as well. Anyone know what that maximum time (or # of note events) is for the Tyros2 and/or S900?

Thanks.

Scott



[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 08-28-2007).]

Midi should be no problem as it requires little storage space; audio though would probably take up to much of the data bus and storage medium. (Particularly with hardware boards)
You could try just activating Midi record and letting it run to see what happens.
If I get the time I will try it on my Abacus, as it is just 2 button pushes to activate it, and it then runs independent of everything else. Audio is just as easy; however Wersi has set a time out of 20 minutes, so as not to use up too much disk space. (I am surprised they have not increased this time as it was implemented when the standard hard drive was just 8.4 GB, whereas now it’s 80 GB)
Certainly food for thought, nice one Diki
Regards

Bill

Roland Fantom.."skip back sampling" records at any given time[always].

So I don't think this to be hard for Roland to put in an arranger..

Many thanks to SZ member John (aka: jwyvern) for the answer: 80 minutes, shown on page 59 of the Tyros2 owner's manual.

This means on Tyros2, you can simply hit audio rec, and play to your hearts content for up to 80 minutes and preserve any magical playing & vocal inspiration that may have occurred during that time.

I'm kinda curious now what the maximum audio record time per song is on the Yamaha S900 is. Anybody know? Ian?

Also curious if Roland, Korg, or Ketron arrangers include this/similar useful built in 'on the fly' audio rec feature. Diki, can you tell us?

Thanks,

Scott

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 08-28-2007).]

Actually, I didn't know there were ANY keyboards that were constantly in 'record', though, once again, I don't think that audio recording is anywhere near as useful as MIDI... There's little you can do with your 'magic moment' other than listen to it, whereas a MIDI capture allows so very much more...

The thing is, audio recording an arranger, unless you ARE mixing in mikes and other instruments, seems utterly pointless until you have first MIDI recorded it, and been able to edit it or mix it more objectively than you can while you are actually playing.

If a MIDI recorder captures and plays back EXACTLY what you just played, it is functionally no different to the audio capture, except you DO have total control over the recording AFTERWARDS.

JMO...

I don't do straight audio recording.(Ty2)
Always start off with a midi for editing reasons, then when OK record the audio. I always make mistakes

John

[This message has been edited by jwyvern (edited 08-28-2007).]

I do the same thing, John, but I use either my DAW or a ZoomH4 to capture it to audio afterwards...

For as much as these built-in audio recorders add to the cost and complexity of modern arrangers, I don't find their stripped down features of much use. For recording live, for example, an external recorder offers FAR more choice as to what or where you record (keyboard, mixer, mixer with live mikes mixed in, out in the crowd, etc.), and whether you use outboard compression or internal gain limiting, etc.

Plus, I believe that most internal recorders still only do 16/44 as a maximum, and 24 bit recordings allow for MUCH better post production (compression, eq, limiting, etc.) which you HAVE to do to get them up to modern volume levels...

I think the whole point of my feature suggestion was to provide more than just a simple skip-back listen to our doodling... There are a myriad of things you can do with MIDI that are impossible in audio...

For the home user the built in audio recorders are perfect...simple, effective easy to use.

Of course, the pros will want more than simple and they can find that in a software sequencer....but the majority of arranger buyers aren't pros.

Thee home user/hobbyist is usually happy enough to make a WAV recording that they can burn to CD or turn into an MP3 so they can e-mail it to their friends.

Yamaha's audio to USB is so cooool!

Ian

Ok, I'm a home user and PROUD of it. Frankly, I think (despite claims otherwise) just about EVERYONE here at Synthzone a home user as well.

Afterall, don't we all, in addition to taking our keyboard on the job aka: gigs , play our keyboards 'at home' too? It's really only the BIG TIME Pro musician who can really afford having their music business fully subsidize a dedicated building outside the home, solely for the purpose of music, and I'd doubt these guys spend time posting "daily" on Synthzone as so many of the purported pros here do. Am I wrong?

As a p/t performing Pro who happens to be a home user as well, I definitely appreciate the ability to conveniently record "on the fly" my live performances, and 80 minutes on the fly record time allows me to easily capture an entire set (both vocals & keyboard) with which I think is more than acceptable sound, evidenced by my song demos posted on my website.

I much prefer hearing live spontaneous performances (with the occasional glitches) vs the engineered & EQ'ed to death up studio recordings. Perhaps that's why I prefer name artist LIVE concert performances to their studio recorded counterparts.

The other advantage to having a convenient audio rec feature is the ability to later self-critique your performance and learn from it. This includes not only the music, but the audience dialogue as well, what works and doesn't work etc. It's a great built into the kb tool. The recording then can then be archived or simply deleted.

- Scott

Diki how is that H4 ?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Diki
I do the same thing, John, but I use either my DAW or a ZoomH4 to capture it to audio afterwards...
[/QUOTE


Diki how is that H4 for recording a few stereo tracks lets say style, vocals, lead etc ...?

Well, firstly, I got to say I agree with Scott (amazing, eh?!) that all of us probably play at home as well as on gigs. I must confess I find the whole 'home' arranger vs. 'pro' arranger debate kinda silly, PLENTY of pros using 'home' arrangers, PLENTY of home players playing 'pro' arrangers, to the point where I just don't see any difference at all in their intended use or target customer.

Just about ANY feature on an arranger is as useful to a pro as a home player... Whether music is played in the living room or the bar-room, it is still music... And a 'home' user can appreciate a fine action as much as a pro can appreciate easy portability.

I agree that a built-in recorder has it's uses, but the convenience of it all 'in the box' is somewhat outweighed, IMO, by the thought that even 'home' users have friends that play, and have relatives that want to sing along, and the built-in nature of arranger recording facilities denies some of the more likely recording scenarios. Unless you ARE playing by yourself (and where's the FUN in that? NB I'm joking, OK?) there is always the possibility of others to add into the mix. A ZoomH4 (or something similar) is at least as easy to operate as a built in, but with the advantage that you can record off the mixer if others are playing with you, or can simply use the built in mikes to capture an 'acoustic' moment.

Donny, the H4 DOES have some overdubbing and mixing capabilities, probably at least as good as an arranger built-in, but in truth, if you want to do something like this, a laptop or home computer is by FAR the better tool for this, and, to be perfectly honest, no harder to learn than any modern arranger's OS. If the 'home' user (whoever THEY are) can master the OS of an S900 or an E60, a simple audio recording and overdubbing program is a piece of cake...

BTW, once you have filled up the T2's HD, just how long does it take to transfer all that data to a computer to burn a CD? Does it use USB2 or USB1 speeds? Just curious. Hopefully, it's a LOT faster than that glacial sampler load up times...

Anyway, to try and get back on topic (WHAT??!! How DARE anyone hijack one of MY threads! ) anybody else up with the idea of a constant MIDI 'capture' in the background...?

Diki's finally seen the light

Scott looks more like Dikis guitar player