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#121560 - 07/30/06 10:28 AM My new G70
Alex K Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/99
Posts: 732
Loc: Phoenix, AZ USA
As I had mentioned in one of the other posts, I bought the G70 last weekend. Before anyone starts speculating about the steep learning curve or suspecting that Roland instruments eat their owners alive , I will tell you that disappointingly, I had to go out of town last week, and have been away from both my keyboard and internet until coming home this weekend.

However, now that I have had a few hours with the G70, I am happy to say that compared to the G1000 (which I still have after 8 years) it is an improvement in every area.

It does have a lot of features, but to me the Operating System is quite well thought out, and makes it easy and intuitive to get around (though IMO Yamaha may be easier by a notch). To my ears the sound is great , and the styles sound good too (this is my subjective opinion). I am yet to transfer my custom styles and performances from the G1K, but so far the built-ini styles cover most major genres. I like having a flash card instead of a hard disk - more reliable and less affected by the rigors of moving the instrument around - and am about to by a 4 GB card. There are larger ones out there, but 4GB seems to be the most cost-effective size, and since the G70 does not store audio data, but only MIDI and text information for songs and styles, this should be more than sufficient to accommodate my entire collection of MIDI files and styles, with plenty of room to spare.

The built-in styles cover a large variety of genres, and although I have some work ahead of me in setting up the associated one-touch presets for my taste, if I had to play a gig tonight, I probably would take the G70 instead of the tried and true G1000.

I love the vocal harmonizer. I am not much of a singer, but it really helps me sound better. I have played with the Digitech Vocalist Workstation some years ago, and must say that the built-in one sound much better and is easier to use.

I will have more comments about the things I like, find interesting or odd, or dislike (yes, I do have some pet peeves about it too) in the coming weeks.

Nonetheless, overall I am very happy with buying the G70. I feel that it will improve my ability to entertain my audiences better.

Regards,
Alex

[This message has been edited by Alex K (edited 08-05-2006).]

[This message has been edited by Alex K (edited 08-05-2006).]
_________________________
Regards,
Alex

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#121561 - 07/30/06 01:41 PM Re: My new G70
Rolman Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 80
Loc: Germany
Hi Alex,
I think your post will contribute to a normal treatment of this keyboard,-- I often be missing here.
Peter

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#121562 - 07/30/06 01:50 PM Re: My new G70
Scottyee Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 10427
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area, CA, US...
Hi Alex. Congratulations, & thanks for sharing your insightful G70 review. In my G70 evaluation, I shared many of your impressions, especially the G70's intuitive navigation and terrific sounding built in vocalizer, admittedly better sounding than the one included in Tyros2. I'm really looking forward to hearing some music (songs) played and recorded by you on your new G70 keyboard now. Happy G70 keyboarding. - Scott
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#121563 - 07/30/06 02:12 PM Re: My new G70
freddynl Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/17/99
Posts: 1150
Loc: netherlands
Hi Alex,

Congratulations with your new board.
As a long time roland user I am sure you will like it

Fred
_________________________
Keyboards/Sound Units: Kurzweil 2600S, Roland VR-760, Acces Virus C, Roland G-800, Akai AX60, Minimoog, Machine Drum, Roland R8-M, mediastation x-76

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#121564 - 07/30/06 02:52 PM Re: My new G70
TwoNuts Offline
Member

Registered: 05/02/02
Posts: 430
Loc: Vancouver, Washington. USA
Hi Alex,

Glad to hear that you have a G-70 and are enjoying it. I truly look forward to the music that I'm sure you will be making and recording, also any additional information that you will be able to share about this great Roland keyboard. Have fun with it.

It's all about the music...


Regards,

Dennis L. Almond
aka...TwoNuts
_________________________
Regards,

Dennis L. Almond
aka...TwoNuts

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#121565 - 07/31/06 03:53 AM Re: My new G70
kbrkr Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/19/02
Posts: 2866
Loc: Tampa, FL
Alex,

Congratulations on your new G70! I know what it feels like when you get a new board, and it feels just great!!! Hope you have many happy years with it!



------------------
Al Giordano
www.al-giordano.com

Tyros 2, Yamaha P-250, Korg Triton Extreme 76, Roland VK8-M, DW Collectors Series Drums
_________________________
Al

Pa4x - LD Systems Maui 28 - Mackie Thumps

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#121566 - 07/31/06 04:47 AM Re: My new G70
Dreamer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/23/01
Posts: 3849
Loc: Rome - Italy
Alex,
congratulations for the G-70; please, keep us informed, as I value your input as an unbiased one.
_________________________
Korg Kronos 61 and PA3X-Pro76, Roland G-70, BK7-m and Integra 7, Casio PX-5S, Fender Stratocaster with Fralin pickups, Fender Stratocaster with Kinman pickups, vintage Gibson SG standard.

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#121567 - 08/03/06 04:19 PM Re: My new G70
TwoNuts Offline
Member

Registered: 05/02/02
Posts: 430
Loc: Vancouver, Washington. USA
Alex,

Just wondering if you are getting aclimated to your new Roland G-70. I was hoping to hear some of your music and additional comments about the board.

Regards,

Dennis L. Almond
aka...TwoNuts


[This message has been edited by TwoNuts (edited 08-03-2006).]
_________________________
Regards,

Dennis L. Almond
aka...TwoNuts

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#121568 - 08/03/06 10:32 PM Re: My new G70
Alex K Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/99
Posts: 732
Loc: Phoenix, AZ USA
Dennis,

Thank you for asking. I am still pleased with the sounds and styles of the G70.

However, I have come across a problem that may be a show-stopper for me. I described it here http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum38/HTML/000355.html
as well as on the Danish G70 forum.

I am a bit disheartened by Diki's point of view in that post. I hope it does not represent Roland's official position, and they will commit to fixing this problem quickly.

I will keep you posted about my progress.

Regards,
Alex
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Regards,
Alex

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#121569 - 08/04/06 12:07 AM Re: My new G70
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
Unfortunately, to a certain extent, this IS Roland's official position. A bug is a feature that does not work as described. This 'feature' is not described at all, therefore, no bug (just poor design!)

BUT......... Roland have fixed many 'poor design' features as well as true 'bugs' in other OS upgrades, so this is really only semantics. Hopefully, this will get 'fixed'.

As long as we keep the pressure up and ask for it........
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#121570 - 08/04/06 12:57 AM Re: My new G70
Dreamer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/23/01
Posts: 3849
Loc: Rome - Italy
I wonder... was this "bug" fixed in the E-80?
_________________________
Korg Kronos 61 and PA3X-Pro76, Roland G-70, BK7-m and Integra 7, Casio PX-5S, Fender Stratocaster with Fralin pickups, Fender Stratocaster with Kinman pickups, vintage Gibson SG standard.

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#121571 - 08/04/06 09:38 AM Re: My new G70
TwoNuts Offline
Member

Registered: 05/02/02
Posts: 430
Loc: Vancouver, Washington. USA
Wow Alex,

I certainly understand what you mean. That would drive me crazy if that happened to me.
I hope that they come up with a fix for you and all the other G-70 owners.

Best of luck to you.

Dennis
_________________________
Regards,

Dennis L. Almond
aka...TwoNuts

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#121572 - 08/04/06 10:20 AM Re: My new G70
weissefar Offline
Member

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 134
Quote:
Originally posted by Dreamer:
I wonder... was this "bug" fixed in the E-80?

http://www.selskabsmusikeren.dk/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=60&topic=1555.msg4717#msg4717

But you should read the whole thread...

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#121573 - 08/04/06 11:50 AM Re: My new G70
Dreamer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/23/01
Posts: 3849
Loc: Rome - Italy
Quote:
Originally posted by weissefar:
Quote:
Originally posted by Dreamer:
[b]I wonder... was this "bug" fixed in the E-80?

http://www.selskabsmusikeren.dk/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=60&topic=1555.msg 4717#msg4717

But you should read the whole thread...[/B]


Thanks! I have actually read the whole thread...
_________________________
Korg Kronos 61 and PA3X-Pro76, Roland G-70, BK7-m and Integra 7, Casio PX-5S, Fender Stratocaster with Fralin pickups, Fender Stratocaster with Kinman pickups, vintage Gibson SG standard.

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#121574 - 08/04/06 02:32 PM Re: My new G70
keybplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 2417
Loc: CA
Waiting for Roland to fix the 'bug' in the G70 is like playing Russian Roulette and/or playing with fire. The bullet in the chamber will eventually find its target and the fire will eventually burn you if you continue to play around with it. So what am I saying? I'm saying is it worth the frustration? I could see where this could be disastrous in a live performance scenario where you want the keyboard to do one thing and it won't allow you and instead reverts back to something you don't want it to do and in the process possibly flubbing up the song and/or the whole performance.

That's not to say that Roland will not fix the 'bug' - but when??? Next year? Two years from now?? Roland has emphatically stated they made the G70 to default to Intelligent Mode when using the OTS feature. It was a design choice. But in doing so they have taken away from the Owner the ability to setup the Keyboard to their own preference and choosing. Roland has essentially tied the hands of Users from doing what they should have the right to do on their $4,000 Keyboard, i.e. "keep the Mode setting to the one they specify" not the one Roland thinks it should default to.

PS: In saying that Roland "fixed" the problem on the E-80 leads me to believe that they 'goofed' on the G70 and they finally corrected that anomaly with the E-80. In other words, if it actually was a good design on the G70 they would have kept it the same way on the E-80. But they didn't...

Best regards,
Mike

[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 08-04-2006).]
_________________________
Yamaha Genos, Mackie HR824 MKII Studio Monitors, Mackie 1202 VLZ Pro Mixer (made in USA), Cakewalk Sonar Platinum, Shure SM58 vocal mic.

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#121575 - 08/04/06 09:59 PM Re: My new G70
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
The fun fact is....... this is EXACTLY the same behavior on the G1000.

Alex got all bent out of shape over a 'bug'/'feature' that's already in the keyboard he has. Don't know why he still has his G1000 - apparently it's a deal-breaker on the G70, but not on the G1000............
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#121576 - 08/04/06 10:54 PM Re: My new G70
weissefar Offline
Member

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 134
I have just read keybplayers (Mike) message. I am VERY surprised to read that message... Facts are:

1.
The keyboard mode is not saved, when shifting OTS registrations on the G-70. This is not a bug. It is a design decision from Rolands R&D team. It is common knowledge that the G-70 does not save the keyboard mode in the OTS registrations. It is even desribed in the manual.

2.
The G-1000 works BTW just the same way as the G-70. On the G-1000 you can't save the keyboard mode either.

3.
The E-80 works in another way. Rolands R&D team has chosen to design the OTS concept otherwise on the E-80.

The above are the facts!

Now, what surprises me is that Alex has turned this into the most important thing on the G-70?! The G-70 beats the G-1000 on literally hundreds of features, but this is completely forgotten in this case!? Furthermore, this is NOT A BUG, so don't call it a bug

Reading the threads on this issue might lead you to think that everyone thinks that this is a great problem. I will just add that this is not in any way a problem to me. Like most G-70 owners I owned a G-1000 before, so I can't miss something that I never had before.

Nevertheless I agree that the OTS concept on the E-80 is smarter than on the G-70. But if this is such an important issue, then buy a E-80 instead In the meantime we have kindly asked Roland to implement "save keyboard mode in OTS" in a future OS update. Let's hope that they will listen to this

[This message has been edited by weissefar (edited 08-04-2006).]

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#121577 - 08/04/06 11:09 PM Re: My new G70
Alex K Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/99
Posts: 732
Loc: Phoenix, AZ USA
Guys,

I am trying to be civil and polite, even though this issue and the response of some of the Roland apologists are beginning to annoy me a little. I am yet to hear back from Roland support officially, and like I said, their response will determine whether I keep my G70. I am hoping that they will acknowledge my concern and promise some sort of a fix (this could be wishful thinking, but I am still harboring some hope).

Diki, comparing the OTS behavior in G70 and G1000 is like comparing apples and oranges, or as they say in Russian, a ***** and a finger. Why don't you compare it with a $99 Casio which also forces you to use single-finger chords? On the G1000 the OTS was a single non-programmable setting, for only built-in styles. The G70 has a set of programmable OTS settings, which, if they had worked according to the manual, would address my main concern about the G70, i.e. the ability to change solo voices for a style when you have no user performance memory configured, especially as these are supposed to work not only for the preset, but also for the custom styles. I had written to Roland several times over the last 8 years (since getting my G1000) and asking them for this feature, especially since the major competitors have some facilities for quick recall of the solo voices. In truth, while I like the improvements in sound over the G1000, and some of the other features, programmable OTS memories was the main reason I had purchased this keyboard.

While I don't feel I have to explain to anyone why I am keeping the keyboards I am keeping, I will answer your question. At this point I am not sure that I want to keep the G70, especially if in the areas of my concern it falls short.

This may not be an issue for other people, although judging by the posts on the Danish G70 forum, there is quite a number of people concerned with the mis-behavior of the OTSes. The fact that Roland has changed this behavior on the E80 proves that they themselves see it as needing improvement.

For me an instrument is a tool to do what I need to do. I don't feel any more loyalty to any particular manufacturer than they feel towards me (and I am yet to see how supportive Roland will be of my concerns).

Regards,
Alex
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Regards,
Alex

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#121578 - 08/04/06 11:25 PM Re: My new G70
Alex K Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/99
Posts: 732
Loc: Phoenix, AZ USA
Quote:
Originally posted by weissefar:
I have just read keybplayers (Mike) message. I am VERY surprised to read that message... Facts are:

1.
The keyboard mode is not saved, when shifting OTS registrations on the G-70. This is not a bug. It is a design decision from Rolands R&D team. It is common knowledge that the G-70 does not save the keyboard mode in the OTS registrations. It is even desribed in the manual.


The manual lists exactly which parameters are saved (and recalled). I have no problem with that. My concern is that the chord recognition mode is not listed as saved/recalled, but is forced on me anyway.

Quote:
Originally posted by weissefar:
2.
The G-1000 works BTW just the same way as the G-70. On the G-1000 you can't save the keyboard mode either.


See my reply above.

Quote:
Originally posted by weissefar:
3.
The E-80 works in another way. Rolands R&D team has chosen to design the OTS concept otherwise on the E-80.

The above are the facts!

Now, what surprises me is that Alex has turned this into the most important thing on the G-70?! The G-70 beats the G-1000 on literally hundreds of features, but this is completely forgotten in this case!? Furthermore, this is NOT A BUG, so don't call it a bug

Reading the threads on this issue might lead you to think that everyone thinks that this is a great problem. I will just add that this is not in any way a problem to me. Like most G-70 owners I owned a G-1000 before, so I can't miss something that I never had before.

Nevertheless I agree that the OTS concept on the E-80 is smarter than on the G-70. But if this is such an important issue, then buy a E-80 instead In the meantime we have kindly asked Roland to implement "save keyboard mode in OTS" in a future OS update. Let's hope that they will listen to this

[This message has been edited by weissefar (edited 08-04-2006).]


I am also asking Roland to implement this feature in the future OS update, since without it I can not use the G70, and instead will use the G1000 which is all set up for a performance. However, as I said before, I call them as I see them. To me a bug is a bug. I believe I explained myself quite sufficiently in the previous posts. As a software engineer, I believe I am quialified to make a judgement on what to call a bug, and what to call an enhancement request. This problem is obviously the former.

I also said a number of times, that it may not be an issue for many people, particularly those who like to play Intelligent (fingered) chords on their arranger. For me it is a big deal, as are the polyphony and having the 76 keys, which I have mentioned in this forum in many posts.

Why I don't buy a E80? because I can not carry that much weight. In fact Roland themselves position the E80 as a keyboard for home, and the G70 for people playing professionaly. I also can not play the E80 because it does not have enough keys. If these two issues were not important to me, perhaps I would buy the E80.

Why am I so upset about this? I don't like when somebody tries to feed me !@#$. Maybe you do, but I don't. And when someone tries to defend the indefensible, it shows that they lack objectivity, and discounts their opinion in my eyes.

Regards,
Alex
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Regards,
Alex

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#121579 - 08/05/06 12:13 AM Re: My new G70
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
Just because you failed to read the manual, or check this apparently indispensable feature before you bought it, hardly gives you the right to call something a bug...... As a software engineer, what do you call a feature that works as designed, but you don't happen to like it's implementation?

Me, I call it what it is.... poor design. Period.

As I have repeatedly stated, to your utter disregard, I am NOT an apologist for Roland, Anything but......... However, as moderator of the G70 Bug Forum, it is my job to winnow out the design flaws from the REAL bugs. We post them to separate forums, to help the Roland R&D team separate out the wishlist from the true bugs.

I've got a wishlist a mile long, some have already been answered, some are possibly coming in a new OS, some I may have to wait until the G80 (or whatever they call it) comes out, some I may never get....... But I don't try to cloud the waters by confusing my wish for a design change with a bug report.

What, as a software engineer, would you tell someone who did the same to you? It would probably involve a cart-load of asterixes..... Oh, and by the way, how did your request to Roland to fix this on the G1000 go? Did THEY acknowledge it as a bug........? Didn't think so

The sad thing is, here you are, sitting with a keyboard that has the same design flaw you already seem to have figured out how to work around, literally hundreds of improvements over the keyboard you want to go back to, and the strong possibility that, because it's sister keyboard has this feature fixed, there's a very good chance the G70 will soon(-ish!) get this upgrade too, and you are fixating on the one thing.

Are your glasses always half empty, or do you go around blaming someone else for drinking half your beer?

Me, I was incensed that Roland dropped the Chord Sequencer, but there's no way I'm going back to my G1000 just to use this one feature........ the drums suck, compared to the G70, the organs suck, compared to the G70, the piano sucks compared to the G70, the display and knobs suck compared to the G70......... I could go on forever.

Try to spend a bit more time figuring out all the improvements, and less time on this one feature that you never had before (at least I HAD a Chord Sequencer!!) and maybe the glass will be half full, again.........
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#121580 - 08/05/06 02:51 AM Re: My new G70
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:

Me, I call it what it is.... poor design. Period.


It is important to be made aware of such a "poor design".

I know several people who were considering this instrument because of its many great features, but when they are made aware of this strange "feature", it may, or may not, make a difference in their decision to purchase.

Nevertheless, it is definitely something of which they should be made aware.

Hopefully Roland will address this issue with their usual expeditiousness.

Thank you, Diki (and Alex) for bringing this to everyone's attention.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#121581 - 08/05/06 05:12 AM Re: My new G70
Bluezplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/10/00
Posts: 2195
Loc: Catskill Mountains, NY
Nicely done Ian.

I am one of those who is seriously considering this board as my next arranger purchase. If I'm reading this right, and using OTS causes me to lose the chord fingering settings, than this will be a big deal to me, enough that I would likely decide against the G70 entirely.... but only if the intelligent arranger mode is not my preferred mode in the first place. I understand the single finger part, but that doesn't bother me, so long as it also recognizes three and four fingered chords in intelligent mode along with playing two notes of a chord root and minor third for minor chord, root and 7th note for 7th chord, etc. This is similar to one of the fingering modes in my PA80 and is exactly how I have it set up. What I don't like is strict single finger mode where you play the root and the next key up or down for a minor, next two keys up and down for a 7th..etc. That I won't use.

That's the kind of information that really DOES help here at the forum, as opposed to some of the other stuff ..... Now I can see for myself how this ( which is something I probably wouldn't have thought to look for ) will affect me before I make a final decision on what to purchase. Thanks for sharing it.

AJ




[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 08-05-2006).]
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AJ

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#121582 - 08/05/06 07:09 AM Re: My new G70
Alex K Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/99
Posts: 732
Loc: Phoenix, AZ USA
I have indeed read the manual before buying the G70.

I was satisfied with the list of the parameters that the OTSes memorize (and recall). I am not satisfied with the fact that during recall of the OTS, an extraneous action of recalling additional, non-recorded parameter is occurring.

If you had a situation that every time you pressed a middle C it had also played an E and a G, you would surely consider it a problem (though perhaps if you had only played Cmaj chords, it would be a "feature"). I am surprised why some people are trying to excuse similar misbehavior of the OTS. The whole purpose of the "memory" is to recall what was memorized. If it recalls something other than it had memorized, then it is a problem.

This operation is not according to doucmentation in the manual, but even if it were, IMO it would still need to be changed.

I understand that in a complex system like the G70 the initial software release may have a number of problems with improperly working or illogically designed functions. The proper way to go about this is to fix these problem. which is what i hope Roland will do.

AJ, as I said before, this may not be an issue to some people, and I am glad it is not for you (though I suggest you try exercising the OTSes, and playing the G70 in the "Intelligent" mode before purchasing one). I often play riffs with my left hand, and for that the single finger chord setting is horrible.

Regards,
Alex


[This message has been edited by Alex K (edited 08-05-2006).]

[This message has been edited by Alex K (edited 08-05-2006).]
_________________________
Regards,
Alex

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#121583 - 08/05/06 07:23 AM Re: My new G70
Bluezplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/10/00
Posts: 2195
Loc: Catskill Mountains, NY
I understand Alex, and now that I think of it, actually I don't always use that mode either, so maybe it is an issue for me as well. On a few of my OTS and performance settings I actually do use the piano fingering mode on the PA80 when I play the piano sounds, and everything including OTS settings work fine ( ie- fingering preferences change as saved ).

The real issue on the PA80 for me is that I dislike the piano sounds so much that I don't use them very much.

AJ
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AJ

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#121584 - 08/05/06 07:55 AM Re: My new G70
Alex K Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/99
Posts: 732
Loc: Phoenix, AZ USA
AJ,

The pianos on the G70 are fantastic, at least to my ears. The sounds that I play with the left hand are usually the pianos, especially when the right hand solos are different instruments. With velocity sensitivity you can make those piano sounds really cut through the mix.

Being able to play riffs with the left hand takes away from the canned feel of the pre-programmed styles - sooner or later this gets to be an issue with any instrument, and this is where I feel it becomes so important to be able to play "help" the style. The only way to do that, though, is with the Piano-style chording in the left hand, which allows you to press a 3-finger chord to set the arranger chord, and then play riffs/solos pressing 1 or 2 keys at a time.

BTW, for that same reason I needed to buy a 76 key instrument (with 61 keys there is simply not enough room for the left hand riffs).

I hope that Roland will acknowledge and fix the problem with the OTSes that in its present mode of operation makes so little sense and negates these important capabilities of their instrument (they did it in the E80 after all).

Regards,
Alex

[This message has been edited by Alex K (edited 08-05-2006).]
_________________________
Regards,
Alex

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#121585 - 08/05/06 09:49 AM Re: My new G70
Bluezplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/10/00
Posts: 2195
Loc: Catskill Mountains, NY
My style is a little different, but for the same reasons I use the piano fingering mode on the PA80. When using piano sounds, and occasionally guitars, I sometimes like to turn the bass parts of the styles off and play left handed bass and right handed comping and riffs. Having only 61 keys of course really limits this, so that's when using "full keyboard" mode for chords becomes essential to me.

It also has the added benefit of forcing the chords to follow what I play exactly, which sometimes turns out to be a very good thing. The good thing is that the PA80 OTS settings, as well as the performance slots, recall everything I set up. You're very right about this Alex, and it may become a big issue for me.

I also play live with One Man Band, using my Motif ES along with a slew of softsynths. I have also played live with the MZ2000 solo. Neither of these have the so called "intelligent" or mode in the same way the PA80 does, so with them I only use full fingered chording, and I am quite comfortable with that as well.

AJ
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AJ

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#121586 - 08/05/06 10:26 AM Re: My new G70
TwoNuts Offline
Member

Registered: 05/02/02
Posts: 430
Loc: Vancouver, Washington. USA
Alex,

I was hoping that I could get you to put a little finer point on this topic, for those considering buying a G-70.
I have read all the posts and the varied comments and opinions. I undertand exactly what you are talking about. However my question relates more to the G-1000 and your ability to use that keyboard. Does the G-1000 not have OTS? or is it that the G-1000 doesn't revert back to inteligent play when you select the OTS? Forgive me as I am not familiar with the OS of these particular keyboards. (but I do want to understand)
I realize that the G-70 is overiding your global setting of Piano Chord Mode for arranger playing. This is what I understand to be the major glich. It is implementing a mode of operation that is not supposed to be saved in the OTS. Which begs the question, why has Intelegent Play been arbitrarily programmed into OTS. ...I GET IT!...

What I don't get is the undeniable amount of angst that others feel about your comment relating to this problem.

Now if the G-1000 does the exact same thing as the G-70...Thats a whole different ballgame. But you did mention that you bought the G-70 for its OTS. Which led me to believe that the G-1000 did not have the OTS.

Maybe you could help me and others understand a little better the difference that you have in the two keyboards as it relates to the OTS or lack thereof.

Regards,

Dennis L. Almond
aka...TwoNuts
_________________________
Regards,

Dennis L. Almond
aka...TwoNuts

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#121587 - 08/05/06 11:10 AM Re: My new G70
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
Look, Alex, I'm really not sure why you are upset with me (and others) who merely point out to you that the problem you have encountered - which we at the Danish G70 Users Club discovered and documented over a year ago - is more correctly identified as a design flaw, and not a 'bug'. That is all. We don't have a problem with you making the fact widely known (in fact, the more widely recognized this problem is, the more likely Roland are to provide an OS fix)......

A simple search at the G70 site for 'OTS' before you bought the G70 would have wised you up to the MANY problems OTS has on the G70 (compared to most people's expectations of what it SHOULD do)....... The fact that OTS settings are for Internal and Custom styles ONLY, the fact that OTS settings are saved to a UPS (performance Set, NOT to the style itself), etc., etc., are well documented, and by the fact of Roland having completely re-designed this feature for the E80 (and hopefully are working on a new OS for the G70 that includes this fix) is a tacit acknowledgment of the problem (you rarely see ANY of the big 3 publicly do a 'mea culpa'). This is definitely more than they ever did for the G1000........

What most of us that wanted to use OTS have done is give up on this 'feature' until Roland fix it, and start to use the UPS Set List more. It involves a bit more setup time, but is even more functional than OTS by allowing the memorization of WAY more parameters than OTS. Is this perfect? no....... Does it work? yes......

In the meantime, perhaps you'd care to revisit your first post, and decide whether this one feature (which you managed to do without, before) REALLY tips the scale against all your other positive impressions.
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#121588 - 08/05/06 12:36 PM Re: My new G70
Bluezplayer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/10/00
Posts: 2195
Loc: Catskill Mountains, NY
Diki,

I am glad that this has been brought to light here as I am close to deciding T2 vs G70. It is potentially a major issue for me as well. I'll have to try it "live" to see how much difference it makes.

On the PA80, it wouldn't matter all that much to me, simply because I use the performance registrations more than the OTS buttons, because the performances are very well laid out and easy to access, although both record all changes in parameters perfectly. The main reason is because I can name the registrations, but not the OTS settings, so I have to be memorize the settings. Not very practical

On my MZ2000, there are extra steps involved in accessing registration banks vs the PA80, so I tend to use the One Touch presets more, plus they are named and easy to read.

AJ
_________________________
AJ

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#121589 - 08/05/06 01:23 PM Re: My new G70
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
AJ - yes, using the performance memories works very well instead of the OTS for now. Like you say, being able to name them is one HUGE advantage to most regular OTS implementations. I just set up two or three UPGs next to each other in the Set List and switch on the fly. With 192 UPGs per UPS (and very quick load time for UPSs) it doesn't take too long to lay out all your favorite styles in the mode you prefer with a choice of different voices....... So instead of choosing the style from the Style select section, you just select it from the User Program Set.

The best thing I like about the G70 is there always seems to be several ways to do the same thing.......
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#121590 - 08/05/06 02:29 PM Re: My new G70
Alex K Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/99
Posts: 732
Loc: Phoenix, AZ USA
Quote:
Originally posted by TwoNuts:
Alex,

I was hoping that I could get you to put a little finer point on this topic, for those considering buying a G-70.
I have read all the posts and the varied comments and opinions. I undertand exactly what you are talking about. However my question relates more to the G-1000 and your ability to use that keyboard. Does the G-1000 not have OTS? or is it that the G-1000 doesn't revert back to inteligent play when you select the OTS? Forgive me as I am not familiar with the OS of these particular keyboards. (but I do want to understand)
I realize that the G-70 is overiding your global setting of Piano Chord Mode for arranger playing. This is what I understand to be the major glich. It is implementing a mode of operation that is not supposed to be saved in the OTS. Which begs the question, why has Intelegent Play been arbitrarily programmed into OTS. ...I GET IT!...

What I don't get is the undeniable amount of angst that others feel about your comment relating to this problem.

Now if the G-1000 does the exact same thing as the G-70...Thats a whole different ballgame. But you did mention that you bought the G-70 for its OTS. Which led me to believe that the G-1000 did not have the OTS.

Maybe you could help me and others understand a little better the difference that you have in the two keyboards as it relates to the OTS or lack thereof.

Regards,

Dennis L. Almond
aka...TwoNuts


Dennis,

I will be glad to clarify the situation. The G1000 has "one-touch memory", which is unusable. This is a single button which only works for the built-in styles. Pressing it has an effect of setting a fixed right hand lead voice. I am not sure what other parameters it sets or clears, but with its sound selections not being programmable I had never used it (I tried 8 years ago, when I first got my G1000, but quickly gave up).

The G70 has 4 buttons which recall user-programmable sounds for all the solo parts, right and left. This works for all the preset and custom styles, so to me this is a great improvement in being able to quickly select sounds for a currently playing style.
Roland documents which parameters are supposed to be memorized and recalled by this OTS function. Unfortunately, while recalling these parameters, it also forces the arranger chord recognition to Intelligent (that's Single finger in plain language) setting. That is where my problem is.

I contend that in proper operation this function should allow you to memorize the user-desired setting for the Arranger chord recognition, or better yet, it should stick to memorizing the documented parameters, but when invoked, only recall those parameters, and no others. In either case, the OTS memory should only recall what it has memorized, no more and no less.

I don't know if you use the OTS on your Tyros, but higher-end Yamaha keyboards have had this for years. I was certainly looking forward to using this facility on the G70, but with the keyboard unexplicably changing the chord recognition type each time I press an OTS button, I can not use it.

I don't care whether it is called a bug, a design flaw, "product anomaly" or any other name, but this operation in its present form makes no sense whatsoever. I hope that Roland addresses it soon.

Regards,
Alex
_________________________
Regards,
Alex

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#121591 - 08/05/06 07:15 PM Re: My new G70
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
QUOTE/ I don't care whether it is called a bug, a design flaw, "product anomaly" or any other name, but this operation in its present form makes no sense whatsoever. I hope that Roland addresses it soon. UNQUOTE/

Finally, Alex, we are on the same page.........

BTW, did you ever use the Chord Sequencer much on your G1000? If so, would you care to add a request for the return of that 'feature' to the Roland line-up in your correspondence? This, more than any other problem with the G70, is my #1 peeve with it....... How the hell are you supposed to be able to use the bender if your left hand ALWAYS has to play the changes.....?????
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#121592 - 08/05/06 08:01 PM Re: My new G70
weissefar Offline
Member

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 134
Quote:
Originally posted by Alex K:
I don't care whether it is called a bug, a design flaw, "product anomaly" or any other name, but this operation in its present form makes no sense whatsoever. I hope that Roland addresses it soon.


Hi Alex,

I would like to comments on this. However, first I would like to say that I understand, why you are frustrated and upset, beacuse you can't use the instrument in the way you had anticipated. I think that everyone understands this - including Diki and myself. And I want to say two thing about is:

1. The "New functionality forum board" on the G-70 user club website is dedicated to address such wishes for new functionality. If you in that forum board state, why you need this feature, then you can be sure that Roland will get the information. I hope - for you and others, who suffer from this - that your arguments are so significant that Roland sees no choice but to implement the feature.

2. Nothing can change the fact that Roland has not promised us that we could save the Keyboard mode in the OTS registrations. The manual says nothing about this! Therefore we can't really blame Roland for it... my neighbour just bought a new car. It has 6 gears. I went for a test drive earlier today. It a really nice car Let's say that I went out tomorrow to buy myself a new car too and I realized - after taking it home - that it only had five gears - would that be a "bug"? Well, that would depend on what the car salesman have told me, wouldn't it? My point is that you and the rest of us were not promised that the G-70 would have 6 gears.... I mean....!?! follow me?

Now, this lead me to my comment: During the dialogue about this issue you have several times called the issue a bug, and you seem to have insisted on that - until in your latest post, where you surprisingly write "I don't care whether it is called a bug, a design flaw, "product anomaly" or any other name". Now that is surprising to me (especially taken into consideration that you work with computer software), beacuse to me it is of essential importance, what we call the observations. It is only a bug, if you discover something that run counter to the manual! I work myself as a manager in one of the worlds largest software companies. My employees respond to incidents from the end users every day! The first thing our 1st level service desk personel determines, when a new incident is received is, whether the incident in question runs counter to the manual of the product that they support. Only if they can answer "yes" to that question they can register the incident as a bug! So this is of significant importance! A bug can cost the company thousands or even millions of dollars! In the case of Roland the situation is of no difference. If a severe bug is found, then Roland needs to fix it. And thats can be pretty expensive! Just look at the OS2.01 for the Roland G-70 - it's a perfect example... That OS update came out only because the G-70 user club members found a really severe bug (all LED turned out while playing midi files) after the release of OS2 to G-70. After we told Roland that this bug existed, Roland quickly fixed the bug and released the OS2.01, which had to be sent out to every Roland customer and every Roland dealer in the world.... think about that! Can you see the dollar signs? So my point is that bugs (especially severe bugs) are something you dislike, when you are in the business of producing e.g. electronic instruments like the G-70

A consequence of this is: when we in the G-70 user club community observe something that looks strange, we always call it "an observation", and after that we thorougly examine, whether they observation is a bug, a design flaw or whatever. We typically have a dialogue with Roland before categorizing the observation to be sure. On the G-70 user club website we have a database containing bugs in the G-70 found by the user club members. So you see - I certainly do care, whether you find a bug or not!

Good luck with your G-70!

/Søren

[This message has been edited by weissefar (edited 08-05-2006).]

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#121593 - 08/05/06 10:02 PM Re: My new G70
Alex K Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/99
Posts: 732
Loc: Phoenix, AZ USA
Soren,

The manual does not explicitly state that other parameters are not set, there you are correct. However, in the beginning of the manual section for the OTSes (on page 78) it says:
One Touch memories are actually "miniature User Programs" that go way beyond anything you may know from other arranger instruments

Whenever I hear the word "memory" to me it is indicative that it will recall exactly the information that was stored into it. If computer memory had functioned any different, I am sure you would consider it a bug.

Would you expect anything different?

I work for one of the largest industrial control companies in the world, and our software controls billions of $$$ in industrial production worldwide. I share your reluctance to classify things as "bugs" vs. "enhancements". However, in my world when something, even not specifically mentioned in the documentation, works in a completely illogical way, we do call it "a bug".

However, my goal is not to hurt anyone's feelings, and if you feel that calling it "an enhancement" will be more productive in getting this issue resolved, I am going along with your advice.

Do you think that my posts in the Danish forum are sufficiently clear, or should I make a new thread there?

Best regards,
Alex

[This message has been edited by Alex K (edited 08-05-2006).]
_________________________
Regards,
Alex

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#121594 - 08/05/06 10:06 PM Re: My new G70
TwoNuts Offline
Member

Registered: 05/02/02
Posts: 430
Loc: Vancouver, Washington. USA
Quote:
Originally posted by weissefar:

2. Nothing can change the fact that Roland has not promised us that we could save the Keyboard mode in the OTS registrations. The manual says nothing about this! Therefore we can't really blame Roland for it...


Wow

If I understand you correctly, Roland has made no promise to save Keyboard mode in OTS.
Yet when you use OTS you are automatically changed to the Intelligent mode. Sounds to me as if Roland saved Keyboard mode to "Intelligent" and didn't tell anyone that they programmed it that way. Now if someone can't blame Roland for that...then who?

"Intelligent Mode is the default setting for the OTS, And you cannot save Keyboard Mode settings on OTS."

If the manual had said something as simple as that maybe Alex would have made a different choice of keyboard..??

It just seems odd to me that an option such as OTS that clearly states in the manual (as others have pointed out) that it DOES NOT save keyboard mode, would override the global keyboard setting when using OTS which is not supposed to have any saved keyboard mode in its memory. again

OH WELL...

Guess I will go back to my Tyros 2 and deal with the things that it doesn't do that I wished it did...


Regards,

Dennis L. Almond
aka...TwoNuts
_________________________
Regards,

Dennis L. Almond
aka...TwoNuts

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#121595 - 08/05/06 10:45 PM Re: My new G70
Rolman Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 80
Loc: Germany
Quote:
Originally posted by weissefar:
A bug can cost the company thousands or even millions of dollars! In the case of Roland the situation is of no difference.
/Søren
[/B]

Hi Sören,
How much will it cost Roland if their product
has bad functions, nothing?
Greetings
Peter

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#121596 - 08/05/06 11:05 PM Re: My new G70
hitman Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/04
Posts: 325
Loc: VA/ USA
Well guys,

Roland has always fed their customers with a tea-spoon. They built the board by what they think it should be able to do, not by what the consumers ask for. I have owned G800,1000
and now I have the VA76 that I want to sell and go with the T2. I am finally fed up with waiting for roland to make something that suits my needs. On top of that, even if I wanted to try a G70 I would have to drive a few hundred miles cause it's not available anywhere ( like Guitar center ...).
I was hopping that they would make a sampler available in the G70, but again they think it is not required. Sooooo, thanks Yamaha for making my decision easier!As for the Roland SRX expansion, a used $300 XP30 is a much better choice. But than again for the music that I play, the SRX boards a pretty useless.

Alex I agree with you 100%. There is no excuse for the BUG,FLAW or whatever you wanna call it.
But again they will fix it in their next $4000 keyboard. And that is what I mean by "tea-spoon feeding".

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#121597 - 08/05/06 11:26 PM Re: My new G70
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by Alex K:
[B]Soren,

The manual does not explicitly state that other parameters are not set, there you are correct. However, in the beginning of the manual section for the OTSes (on page 78) it says:
One Touch memories are actually "miniature User Programs" that go way beyond anything you may know from other arranger instruments


BUT........... at this point in the manual, it gives a specific list of what the OTS section DOES memorize. At which point, you go 'Ah-Ha! So it doesn't remember EVERYTHING...... I wonder what else it doesn't remember?'

You then go the our G70 site, type in 'OTS' to the search engine, and reel back from the accumulated knowledge....!

In the meantime, while you software guys are splitting hairs, back at the G70 Forum I've posted a nice explanation of how to work around this issue, with several significant advantages over even the way you would like it to work....... (in between gigging my G70 6 times this week!)

So, perhaps, can we put this issue to rest, and concentrate on the more important issue of pressuring Roland to provide the E80 OTS fix for the G70? While Roland can absolve themselves of the 'bug' description of the problem, this doesn't remove their obligation to provide the fix, as (after all) they HAVE provided fixes for other, FAR less important problems that didn't qualify as 'bugs'

Peace, out..........
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#121598 - 08/06/06 02:35 AM Re: My new G70
weissefar Offline
Member

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 134
Diki wrote:

Quote:
One can only hope that Roland see the advantage to their future sales (to current G70 owners) of fixing the OTS system in the G70, as they already have the code written for the E80 and it only needs porting to the G70.


Reading this and other threads would leed one to think that we would love it, if Roland listened even more to what we users say... BUT BUT BUT. There is one thing that some of us miss completely: The silent majority of G-70 users (mr. and mrs. amateur home hobbyist) might not share our points of view! It is common knowledge that if you change the characteristics of an exisitng product, then you among other things implicitly:

1. admit to your customers and your competitors that you were wrong, when you designed your product
2. risk that existing customers will be angry that you have changed the product.

Lets look at the last bullet: If Roland exchanges the OTS concept in the G-70 with the OTS concept of the E-80, then you can be VERY sure that Roland support hotlines will glow red. I have persoanlly seen graphs showing what immense amounts of dollars it costs in support expenses to change a product AFTER it has been released - you wouldn't believe it! If a manufacturer modifies existing functionality then thousands of users immiediatly go abe shit, because they think there instrument is broken, as it suddenly behaves otherwise than it used to do. Of course the fine people of SZ would be able to manage such updates/upgrades, because we help eachother here in cyberspace, but the vast majority of users would not - and thats why I say that a manufacturer should be even VERY cautious when it comes to modifying existing products!

Lets say you asked EVERY single G-70 owner in the world, whether they need this function that Alex miss, then it might be only a tiny percentage of the users, who would actually say that they need it... The opinions from users here at SZ and the G-70 user club website for that sake is NOT representative for the overall G-70 user!

However - when this is said - as administrator of the G-70 User Club, I promise you Alex to explicitly mention to Roland that you (and others) suffer from the lack of this function. I will write Roland an email today. The G-70 user club administration has good back channels to Roland, so the email will for sure go to the right people at Roland. Thats the best we can do at this point - and then we have to wait and hope that there will come another update. In the meantime you have to use the user programs to save your settings. Like Diki mentions elsewhere there are good reason why to use user programs in stead. Like mentioned elsewhere I also hope that you enjoy the hundreds of new features in the G-70 (compared to the G-1000).

Kindly remember - everyone - that Roland has provided us with numerous updates (even an upgrade) since the Roland G-70 was initially released! Never before in history has Roland listened so much to what the customers say! Roland has fixed SEVERAL bugs put forward by the user club community and they have also implemented new features suggested by the user club community. Roland should definitely have credit for doing so!

I know for a fact that Roland listen to what the User Club community say... and who knows?! Roland might right now be exploring how to step up to the plate?!

Have a nice day everyone

/Søren

[This message has been edited by weissefar (edited 08-06-2006).]

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#121599 - 08/06/06 02:52 AM Re: My new G70
weissefar Offline
Member

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 134
Quote:
Originally posted by hitman:
Well guys,

Roland has always fed their customers with a tea-spoon. They built the board by what they think it should be able to do, not by what the consumers ask for. I have owned G800,1000
and now I have the VA76 that I want to sell and go with the T2. I am finally fed up with waiting for roland to make something that suits my needs. On top of that, even if I wanted to try a G70 I would have to drive a few hundred miles cause it's not available anywhere ( like Guitar center ...).
I was hopping that they would make a sampler available in the G70, but again they think it is not required. Sooooo, thanks Yamaha for making my decision easier!As for the Roland SRX expansion, a used $300 XP30 is a much better choice. But than again for the music that I play, the SRX boards a pretty useless.

Alex I agree with you 100%. There is no excuse for the BUG,FLAW or whatever you wanna call it.
But again they will fix it in their next $4000 keyboard. And that is what I mean by "tea-spoon feeding".



Dear hitman, tell me, what time period do you live in?! I am shocked that people are blaming Roland for tea-spoon feeding the G-70 users!? We just can't take such statements serious, sorry dude...

I am not saying so to offend you, but please notice how many updates/updgrades have been released to the G-70!!! And look at how kindly Roland reflects to all the bug reports and suggestions for new functionality to the G-70!!! How can you say such a thing?!? If you look at how kindly Roland cooperates with the User Club community, then your statement can only be interpreted as an overt provocation

I have owned almost every single Roland arranger keyboard, so I know that Roland support sucked in the past, but you shouldn't use that to blame Roland for not supporting the G-70 users!!!

/Søren

[This message has been edited by weissefar (edited 08-06-2006).]

[This message has been edited by weissefar (edited 08-06-2006).]

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#121600 - 08/06/06 02:56 AM Re: My new G70
weissefar Offline
Member

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 134
Quote:
Hi Sören,
How much will it cost Roland if their product
has bad functions, nothing?
Greetings
Peter


Hi Peter, my good friend!

"Nothing" is definitely not correct , and I wouldn't know how much it would cost Roland to implement this feature. However, IMHO it seems like an inexpensive features to implement...

So let's hope that Roland pays attention to the request that I have just send to them on behalf of our fellow user club meber, Alex.

/Søren


[This message has been edited by weissefar (edited 08-06-2006).]

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#121601 - 08/06/06 12:00 PM Re: My new G70
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
Too often I find that users "trash" a board because it doesn't meet "their" specific needs. Well if it doesn't meet your needs then simply don't buy it. Just because it doesn't work for one person doesn't mean it's a failure for the masses. I also understand that there are the little things here and there that you'll find out after buying the gear too, but it's much different now in terms of "The Educated Buyer" today as it was in the past.

Many keyboards have the user manual available online. This allows potential buyers to read them, and see if the unit will work for them. I think this is a very good advantage for the consumer. It allows you to make a more I guess you could say "educated" purchase. I now make it a point to read the manual of every keyboard I've taken into consideration. I can't even count the nubmer of times I've scrolled through the manuals on Roland's, Yamaha's, and Korgs websites.

To the user "hitman", I mean no disrespect my friend, but if the G-800 didn't fit your needs, why then did you buy the G-1000?, and then if you still felt like you were being "tea-spooned" by Roland, why on earth did you buy the VA-76?

Our needs in gear greatly differ from one player to the next. If you can't find joy in a keyboard (that's not for you), simply choose another maker that is more suited for your individual needs.

You're free to have your own opinion, but it's just odd to gripe about Roland as it relates to "your own" personal needs, and trash them, when you have continued to purchase from and support the very company you speak ill of.

I hope you can get the T2 because it's all about finding and buying the gear that makes you happy--or tickles your pickle.

Best Regards,
Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 08-06-2006).]
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.

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#121602 - 08/06/06 02:09 PM Re: My new G70
Alex K Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/99
Posts: 732
Loc: Phoenix, AZ USA
Friends,

I really did not intend to start a fight. I am focused on getting the OTS issue addressed by Roland, and I appreciate the help of everyone who has expressed their support/understanding of my point of view in their posts, even if initially we had disagreed on things.

I am hopeful that Roland will give attention to this issue, especially with Soren's help.

I did not intend to trash Roland instruments - the G70 is the 3rd Roland arranger in a row that I am using to play professionally (Yamahas before that), so that should tell you something about whether I like Roland or not. I think that with the G70 Roland has produced a very complete package, and I am looking forward to making good use of it in the coming future. This will be so much easier once the OTS behavior is modified.

Squeak, I think that Roland is right up there with the rest of the top of the line arrangers. I also indicated several times that the OTS issue may not bother everybody. Roland has a number of features that set it apart from the others, just like some of the other high-end keyboards have features that set them apart.

I do wish that the G70 weighed less, and sent digital audio out via USB, and I am sure I can dream up a few more improvements to it. But even in its present form, and with the features documented in the manual (and working properly) that is still an awsome keyboard, at least for me.

Let's hope that Roland addresses the OTS problem, and this will make the G70 even better.

Regards,
Alex
_________________________
Regards,
Alex

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#121603 - 08/06/06 03:59 PM Re: My new G70
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
I have to admit that, like many here, I will sometimes fixate on the ONE thing that irks me the most in a new arranger, and spend more time posting about that than about the hundred things I DO love....... (Chord Sequencer, anyone ?), but the OTS is something that almost everybody that DOES post much at the Danish G70 site has had a problem with.

While Mr. and Mrs. Mom and Pop probably don't have a problem with this 'feature', they are hardly what anyone would call the target audience for the G70 (or why have ANY advanced features at all if you think they won't be used?). The target group for the G70/E80 is ADVANCED home hobbyists and gigging professionals - EXACTLY the people that are going to realize the inadequacy of the OTS feature..........

Roland having re-designed this feature for the E80 is a tacit acknowledgment of how bad their original concept (or at least, it's execution) was. The target group for the E80 is no different to the G70......

While it MAY cost Roland some additional dollars (or yen, or lira!) to fix this issue in the G70, I see no problem with people who like it the way it is now - all that needs to be addressed is the Mode value should not change on OTS activation (or preferably get memorized IN the OTS). Those that are using already Intelligent Mode (doublespeak if I ever heard it - it should be called Dumb Mode!!) will not have it changed by the OTS, so they are back to where they already are, ONLY those who dislike the mode change will notice the difference........

Roland also need to consider that, while it may cost them a bit of money for the fix (and it shouldn't be too much as the already have the code written for the G70's sister ship, the E-80), the possible loss of confidence by G70 owners (who Roland DEFINITELY want to buy the next G-Series keyboard, when it appears) will probably cost them a lot more.

After all, what confidence will we have in Roland fixing whatever 'gotchas' appear in the NEXT G-series, if they don't fix them in the one we currently have? ESPECIALLY as they have already fixed it in the sister-ship E-80.

However, 'so far, so good'.......... Roland have done a magnificent job of bug squelching, and 'feature' fixing AND plenty of brand-new features in the G70 (more than any previous Roland, and more than most other arranger manufacturers too, AFAIK)

Now they just need to make sure they don't falter before the finish line........
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An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#121604 - 08/06/06 04:18 PM Re: My new G70
Eric, B Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/15/99
Posts: 2028
Loc: Ventura, Ca, USA
Quote:
I have to admit that, like many here, I will sometimes fixate on the ONE thing that irks me the most in a new arranger, and spend more time posting about that than about the hundred things I DO love.......


Well said Diki.

Eric
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Genos, PSR-S970, TC Helicon VoiceLive3, Mackie 802-VLZ3 Mixer, 2 Bose L1 Pro16, Electro-Voice ZXA1 Subwoofer

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#121605 - 08/06/06 07:04 PM Re: My new G70
hitman Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/04
Posts: 325
Loc: VA/ USA
It is funny how people get attached to their instruments. For crying out loud it's just a piece of electronics, not a women!!!!!

When I bought the G800,1000, VA76, there simply was nothing else out there to suit my needs! At that time those were the best choices for me!
Right now there are better boards out there! The T2 does not have competition PERIOD! The numbers speak for them self. I just don't know what the purpose is of the E80? Come on guys its got 128MB (1Gbit) of ROM. Why does roland use that term????? MArketing?????
Oh yeah I forgot, THey fixed the OTS issue!

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#121606 - 08/06/06 09:32 PM Re: My new G70
Alex K Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/99
Posts: 732
Loc: Phoenix, AZ USA
Hitman,

I am glad that the T2 is working for you. I know it is an excellent instrument. Unfortunately for my needs it is 15 keys short.

The story has it that one time Lady Astor told Windston Churchill, "Sir, you are horribly drunk", to which he replied, "And you, Ma'am. are horribly ugly. And guess what, come the morning I will not be drunk any more, but you, on the other hand, will still be ugly".

Even though I now realize that the G70's OTSes are not working properly, there is still hope that it will get fixed. On the other hand, no software update is going to make Tyros into a 76 key instrument. I know that having only 61 keys is not an issue for the majority of the folks here, but it is for me.

Regards,
Alex
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Regards,
Alex

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#121607 - 08/07/06 12:54 AM Re: My new G70
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by hitman:
It is funny how people get attached to their instruments. For crying out loud it's just a piece of electronics, not a women!!!!!

When I bought the G800,1000, VA76, there simply was nothing else out there to suit my needs! At that time those were the best choices for me!
Right now there are better boards out there! The T2 does not have competition PERIOD! The numbers speak for them self. I just don't know what the purpose is of the E80? Come on guys its got 128MB (1Gbit) of ROM. Why does roland use that term????? MArketing?????
Oh yeah I forgot, THey fixed the OTS issue!


Yes, it's funny how people get attached to their arrangers, hitman.......... Oh, I'm sorry, were you implying that THAT didn't apply to you, too?
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#121608 - 08/07/06 08:37 PM Re: My new G70
hitman Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/04
Posts: 325
Loc: VA/ USA
@ alex,

Maybe you should have considered T2 + G1000 together! Instead of 61 keys, you would have had ""137"". Both boards have excellent midi capabilities! Just a suggestion!

@ Diki,

hmmmmm, no emotional attachments at all. My boards are just tools that get abused 4 times a month @ weddings and such. As for your previous question, why I stuck w/ Roland for so long: well it is simple! See, I don't use any of the preset styles. All my styles are custom made (balkan styles) and they required a lot of time and effort. Until now I didn't have time to switch to another board and start all over again!

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#121609 - 08/07/06 10:00 PM Re: My new G70
Alex K Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/99
Posts: 732
Loc: Phoenix, AZ USA
Hitman,

One of the things that is important to me is portability. While having a 76 key controller drive a 61 key keyboard is sn alternative for some, to me it is not very appealing.

I used to gig with two keyboards, but found that:

1. Having an extra keyboard means an extra trip from the car to the stage, and back

2. It means having to use more space in the car, that I don't always have

3. With 2 keyboards you need to use a two-tier stand, and although I have one, I find it much more cumbersome to carry, set up, and break down. It also feels less sturdy.

4. Having two keyboards in front of me prevents me from seeing my audience very well, especially if I use a music stand to put up the notes. For smaller, more intimate gigs having a physically large setup is also inappropriate. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/frown.gif[/img]

5. It takes longer to set up, having to plug both instruments into power sources, audio cables, pedals, MIDI from one to another. Also longer time to do the sound check. All of this adds up to extra time, which becomes a big deal if I am doing a 1 hr gig at, say, a nursing home. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/frown.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/frown.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/frown.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/frown.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/frown.gif[/img]

6. Most importantly for me, there are ergonomic issues when you play a keyboard, but have to reach over to the other keyboard to change settings, such as style variations, sounds, tempos, etc. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/frown.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/frown.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/frown.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/frown.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/frown.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/frown.gif[/img]

None of these issues are insurmountable, and some people do use multiple keyboards to gig with. However, to me this is enough of a hassle to stay away from. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Hence, I prefer an all-in-one solution, such as G70. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/wink.gif[/img]

I also would have liked to have built-in speakers for monitoring, or using for small, intimate settings, but that's another story.

Regards,
Alex

[This message has been edited by Alex K (edited 08-07-2006).]
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Regards,
Alex

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