Ok, I'm finally ready to take the plunge and purchase a DAW (Digital Audio Workstation) recorder as a Christmas present to myself.

I need a high quality sounding 24 bit recorder (which also includes an integrated CD burner), but I only require 4-8 simultaneous record inputs. Second only to exceptional audio, I require a unit which is 'user friendly', and also includes an easy to navigate LCD display screen.

My primary use will be for recording my 'live' vocal/Tyros keyboard performances for both demo & commercial CDs. I want the ability to utilize the DAW for the 'entire' production process: from inital recording, to burning the completed CD, but would also like the option of importing DAW tracks to: Soundforge, Cool Edit, or Sonar for post production work, if desired.

I'm looking for a DAW under $1,500. I'm leaning towards the Yamaha AW16G, but curious how long the AW16G has been out now, and if/when another model replacing it real soon (say within the next month or so).

I'm also curious how the AW16G's features and its 'ease of use' compares to similarly priced DAW's offered by: Zoom, Roland, and Korg and others.

Thanks to all for your valued input.

Scott

Hi Scott. Jeez, you already have Sonar so you're halfway there IMHO - why duplicate (and limit) your studio with a dedicated hardware DAW? And SoundForge is all you need for mastering... maybe you want to think about beefing up your desktop computer and turning it into a DAW with a nice interface? One thing that looks awesome and is in your price range is the new Yamaha O1x mixer/Firewire interface


but it you want to go on the cheap, Tascam's US-122 USB interface will let you record two tracks at a time and has phantom-powered mic inputs for $200. I've used that a lot lately and have no complaints. I even use it with my laptop for field recordings.

BTW: this may also be of interest - my Christmas present is going to be the Novation Remote 25 Xtreme . It's a two octave controller with lots of knobs and buttons for controlling softsynths like Reason, plus it's a two-channel audio interface, and it's a K-Station VA synth.

[This message has been edited by The Pro (edited 12-08-2003).]

Hi Jim (the Pro): I'm primarily interested in a hardware DAW for the portability & convenience of recording 'outside' the studio. I had also considered going the laptop route, but assumed that a hardware DAW recorder would be more convenient to operate because it actually includes dedicated physical 'recording' transport buttons, while a laptop requires fiddling (mousing) around with a pointer device. I also thought that hardware based DAWs provide better stability & reliablility than laptop software programs can. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Curious how much I would need to spend on a laptop (speed, RAM, HD size) to support audio recording. Any suggestions?

Btw: Looks like the cool Novation keyboard piece you're getting for Xmas should easily slide down the chimney.

Scott

I've heard good things about the Yamaha AW16G. In fact it's suppose to be the best DAW dollar for dollar of any DAW on the market right now. It has been out about a year and a half and still holds its own as far as a cutting edge product goes.

But I have to agree with Jim that the best thing might be to boost your Computer's power and capability. Then use the extra money to get this:

Digi 002R Music Production System

SAVE $95.01 (7%) When You Buy Today!
List: $1,295.00
Sale Price: $1,199.99 @ www.musiciansfriend.com


An affordable FireWire-based Pro Tools mini studio!

Packs all the punch of Digi 002 (minus the control surface interface) into a 2U rackmountable unit.

Create everything from top-notch demos to masterful DJ mixes to superb radio spots, all with 24-bit clarity and up to 96kHz sample rate support. Analog, digital, and MIDI capabilities for a wide variety of I/O configurations, with dedicated monitor and headphone outputs.

Single-box design includes a sole FireWire connection to your PC or Mac (OS 10.2.5), so you just plug in and go. No additional hardware is required -- great for laptops. Everything you need to create professional audio productions with Pro Tools ease, power, and flexibility. FireWire-based portability makes it equally viable for studio and live applications.

8 channels of balanced analog I/O, 8 channels of ADAT optical I/O, and 2 channels of S/PDIF I/O, all easily accessible via the back panel. 4 mic preamps with 48V phantom power; 96 kHz converters; one MIDI Iin and 2 MIDI out ports for a total of 16-in/32-out MIDI channels; a separate unbalanced RCA-based, --10dBV main input and output (for recording from/to cassette decks or CD players); and an alternate source input for monitoring tape or CD players at the touch of a button.

24-bit robust signal throughout. Sample rates extend up to 96kHz, and a >105dB dynamic range further ensures the sonic quality of your end results. Whether you are working with raw audio, MIDI, or a combination of the two, Digi 002 Rack and Pro Tools LE work together seamlessly to allow you to optimize your time and creativity. Ships with the latest 32-track Pro Tools LE software, giving you greater functionality and ease-of-use than ever before.

RTAS/AudioSuite-format plug-ins offer even more production options. Pro Tools LE software includes a variety of professional Digidesign plug-ins with the DigiRack plug-in bundle. And, as Digi 002 Rack includes native support for the RTAS format, you can always augment your system with a large variety of professional plug-ins created by Digidesign.

Connecting the Digi 002 Rack to your computer is as simple as plugging in a FireWire cable, which facilitates the flow of all audio streams, MIDI data, and Pro Tools control data between Digi 002 Rack and your host computer. For storage and throughput, an extra FireWire port allows you to connect another FireWire-capable device, such as an external hard drive, to your computer while simultaneously running the Pro Tools application. For Windows XP users, Digi 002 Rack works with leading 1394 (FireWire) controller cards.

Digi 002 Rack works with any FireWire-enabled system to give you serious creative power. You're not restricted to bulky, desktop CPUs, nor to a software-only working environment. And your sessions are equally viable in your own studio and in a professional Pro Tools TDM studio, sharing the same interface, and in many respects, the same functionality.

No other product prepares you as effectively to make the transition from an all-in-one home/project solution to a professional DAW environment. And, no other product can touch the value.

Features:

Single FireWire connection to PC or Mac host computer
8 analog inputs with 4 mic preamps with individual gain and high-pass filter
48V phantom power enabled on channel pairs
8 analog outputs
Outputs 1 & 2 mirrored on 1/4" TRS monitor output (with dedicated volume control), headphone output on 1/4" TRS (with dedicated volume control knob), and RCA-based --10dBV fixed output
8 channels of ADAT optical I/O or 2 channels of optical S/PDIF I/O
2 channels of S/PDIF I/O on RCA connectors
Alternate source Input for direct monitoring of --10dBV audio equipment (CD players, tape players, etc.)
24-bit/96kHz converters, up to >108dB dynamic range and >98dB (0.002%) THD+N
MIDI I/O--1 IN port, 2 OUT ports (16 channels in, 32 channels out)
Footswitch for QuickPunch control
2U rackmountable chassis
Support for PC and Mac (OS 10.2.5)
Specifications:

A/D:

Sample rate: 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96 kHz

Max Input:
Inputs 1-4 (mic): +3 dBu
Inputs 1-4 (line): +18 dBu
Inputs 5-8 (line/+4 mode): +18 dBu

Gain Range:
Inputs 1-4: Mic Setting: +15 - +65 dB; Line/DI Setting: +0 - +50 dB
Inputs 5-8 -- fixed +4 dBu or --10 dBV, -14 dB headroom
Mic E.I.N (unweighted):
Inputs 1-4: --126 dBu @ 65 dB gain, 150 ohm source, 20 Hz -- 20 kHz

THD+N:
Inputs 1-4 (mic): 0.004%, 62 dB gain see 1,3
Inputs 1-4 (line): 0.004%, +17 dBu signal (minimum gain) see 1,3
Inputs 5-6: 0.002% @ +17 dBu input level
Inputs 7-8: 0.003% @ +17 dBu input level

Dynamic range: see 1,2
Inputs 1-4: >101 dB (A-weighted), 98 dB (unweighted)
Inputs 5-8: >108 dB (A-weighted), 105 dB (unweighted) see 5
Alt Source Inputs: >99 dB (A-weighted), 97 dB (unweighted)

Frequency Response:
+0.15 / -0.5 dB, 20 Hz -- 20 kHz

Input Impedance:
Inputs 1-4 (XLR): 2 kohm
Inputs 1-4 (1/4"): 10 Mohm

D/A

Sample Rate:
44.1, 48, 88.2, 96 kHz

Max Output:
Main (1-2), Monitor, and Outputs (3-8): +18 dBu
Alt. --10 dBV Outputs: +4 dBV
Headphone Outputs: +15 dBu, 150 ohm load

THD+N: see 1,3,4
Main Outputs: <0.0016% (-95 dB)
Monitor Outputs: <0.0016% (-95 dB)
Outputs 3-8: <0.0023% (-93 dB)
Alt. --10 dBV Outputs: <0.0023% (-93 dB)

Dynamic range: see 1,3,4
Main Outputs: 114 dB (A-weighted), 112 dB (unweighted)
Monitor Outputs: 112 dB (A-weighted), 110 dB (unweighted)
Outputs 3-8: 114 dB (A-weighted), 112 dB (unweighted)
Alt. --10 dBV Outputs: 98 dB (A-weighted), 95 dB (unweighted)

Frequency Response:
+0.15 / -0.5 dB, 20 Hz -- 20 kHz

Output Impedance:
50 ohms
1 - Measurement made using balanced connectors
2 - ADC measured -60 dBFS method with a gain setting such that +18 dBu = 0 dBFS at S/PDIF output
3 - Measured relative to level at 1 kHz
4 - Measured with digital input at -60 dBFS @ 1 kHz
5 - Measured using "+4" setting
Incredible power at your fingertips for a fantastic price. Order today and break into true pro-quality recording.

The only bad thing about it is it is a non-returnable item if you buy it at Musicians Friend. If you bought it at a local GC perhaps you would be able to return it if you wound up not liking it. I would definitely ask the Manager about that before you bought it though.

Best regards,
Mike


[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 12-08-2003).]

Scott:
For ease of use, portability, great sound, and price under $1,500, take a look at the Korg D1600.

Scott,

For ease, portability, convenience, reliability and all the wonderful things you need to record, and priced under $1,500 there's nothing better than your laptop. It will do everything the DAW does, plus a lot more. If you'll recall, about a month ago we had Terry record the same song using a DAW and his computer. No one knew which was which until near the end of the post when it was revealed. Nealy 80 percent of the folks that listened to both voted for the computer recording for having the best overall quality. In the end, it's what sounds best to others that counts--stick with the laptop.

Good Luck on whatever you decide upon,

Gary

Scott

Here is a Professional review from Remix Mag Online regarding the DIGIDESIGN DIGI 002 RACK. NOTE: You will need a 'speedy' Computer to use it optimally. PS: For UD's sake I will just post the link instead of adding the text here in my post.
http://remixmag.com/ar/remix_digidesign_digi_rack/index.htm

Best regards,
Mike

Scott,
Last thing I heard from a friend, Roland will be releasing a new Multi-track Hard Disk Recorder in the winter NAMM next month. It will fit your budget (or less) and it has everything you’re looking for, plus, it’s this year’s model (Not as old as the AW16). Also, the specs are unbelievable for this price range.
You can make an exception this year and celebrate Christmas one month late and get yourself a gift by the end of January.

Maged

Well guess what guys, I went ahead today (12-08) & purchased the Yamaha AW16G. (12-09 addendum: subsequently traded in AW16G for Korg D1600MKII: see reason at end of this specific posting) I just couldn't turn down what seems like a good price ($899) and that the unit also comes with a 30 day satisfaction guarantee with a full refund if for any reason I don't like it. Though I realize purchasing a laptop might provide more flexible options, it (plus hardware interface, soundcard, & additinal software) would surely cost a bit more than what I paid for the AW16G. I guess I could have waited till the new Roland similar price point model comes out, but I guess I just had to have my MTV (I mean DAW) NOW ! Oh well, I suppose if I find out the Roland is going to be 'that much' more improved than the AW16G, I could just trade up to it (within 30 days). Does anyone here know what improvements/new features the next generation of DAWs will include?

I'm now anxious to find out for myself if the AW16G delivers the DAW recording ease, convenience, & sound quality that a number of you here (Roel, Uncle Dave, Terry Telson, etc) have expressed. I did get a chance to watch the AW16G's accompanying DVD video tutorial and it clearly stated that you can easily export either 'individual' AW16G tracks or the stereo mix downdown to a WAV file and then import it into Cakewalk Sonar, Cubase, or Logic for editing, and (optionally) import it back into the AW16G as well. That's a real big PLUS to me.

One thing that I can't seem to find the answer to is what the record/playback rate of the included AW16G's CDRW/CDR drive is. Anyone know?

Even though I may not always follow everyone's advice , I really DO value & appreciate everyone's opinion here. Thanks for your continued interest & feedback. -Scott

ADDENDUM: 12/9/2003
I EXCHANGED the Yamaha AW16G for a Korg D1600MKII, as the AW16G does not support 24 bit recording while the Korg D1600MKII does. The other feature I like on the D1600MKII (which is not included on the AW16G) is USB interface support and a 40 GB hd, vs 20 GB on the AW16G. The D1600MKII cost me $300 more than the AW16G did though. - Scott

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 12-09-2003).]

Scott,
Congrats and as you know I have both the new Tascam SX 1LE and laptop. IMO you made a wise decision. The dedicated recorders, record without a hitch, press record and go, done deal, instead of "mousing about."

Prepare yourself to be disappointed though in the speed that it burns to cd. The dedicated recorders are smarter than we are, in that to do a good clean burn one should not exceed 4x's which is painfully slow, but clean. The recorders know this and burn slow. I have burned at many speeds on my pc and at the faster speeds I have had crap recordings that do odd things in players.

I believe if we did a retest of the lap vs the new Tascam, the results would come out differently. That does not really matter though, because either of the 2 in the last test were perfectly acceptable results.

Good luck with the new toy. Merry Xmas to Scott.
Terry

------------------
jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

Scott -

Great choice on your new AW16G. I have had mine for about 6 months and would NEVER go back to trying PC recording. It does exactly what I want it to do, can be as simple or as complex as you want it to be, and records completely clean for me.

Please make sure you visit www.aw16g.com. It's the unofficial AW16G website and it's forum has the answer to any question you could ever ask about the 16G.

Good Luck!

Tommy

Scott,
Congratulations on your purchase. You mentioned something in your original post which stated "I need a high quality sounding 24 bit recorder" and the Yamaha AW16G is only a 16 bit 16 track recorder. the mixer and effects section feature a 24 Bit A/D converters. Not that this will be of measurable difference but no one has mentioned this in their posts about the Yamaha. The Korg D1600MKII is 16 bit when using 16 tracks and 24 Bit when using just 8 tracks. Most of my customers think the Korg interface is a bit easier to use especially in routing the mixer with inputs compared to the Yamaha. Both are great, but the Korg MarkII model sells for $1395.00. One thing also to note is that the new Korg MarkII's are now made in china where the D1200 and D1600 are made in Japan. I'm sure this is the wave to come in the future. The Yamaha is made in China I believe.
One more point, recently Guitar Center has started charging a 15% restocking fee and only giving 14 days to return for audio recording workstations. If you bought from them, make sure of your ability to return with a full refund within 30 days. Perhaps you bought somewhere else that haven't changed their policy yet. I hear from my reps that more and more stores are changing.
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California

[This message has been edited by George Kaye (edited 12-09-2003).]

George actually I did mention in one of my posts about the AW's that they record 16 bit and compressed format as well and was one of the main reasons I moved ot the Tascam which is 24bit uncompressed.
Terry

------------------
jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

Yes, although the AW16G is a 'great' recorder it is as George and Terry say only 16 bit. I should have mentioned that when I made my previous post. Seeing you said you wanted 24 bit and all. But I did post the info on the DigiDesign 002 Rack which IS 24 bit.

I realize that we all have to research and investigate products for ourselves to make sure we're getting exactly what we want. My omission of the AW16G being 16 bit was an oversight and a slip of the pen and I'm really sorry about that Scott. But you can always take the AW16G back and get the Digi 002 Rack if you want.

Best regards,
Mike

Hey Scott,
You can spend dosh quicker than me and that is saying something

I can't wait to hear the results of your recording sessions!

Hope you enjoy playing with the new toy. That is the best bit in my opinion.....getting it home and playing around until you realise you forgot to go to bed

Best to you
TOny

------------------
www.tonywmusic.co.uk

Scott......does this mean we'll be hearing a whole new lineup of demos on your great website www.scottyee.com using your new recording device and the Tyros KB?
I surley hope so, I can't wait till you master it. Please let us know asap ok?
Congrats!!

Wow. Thanks to George (and Terry Telson as well) for clueing me in on this. Unfortunately the outside box packaging had mislead me into believing the AW16G records in 24 bit, as the packaging states: "8 analog channel inputs/24 bits".



I checked the back of the Yamaha AW16G and it actually says it's made in Taiwan, not China. Though 'Mainland China' wants Taiwan back as part of China (again), I'm sure Taiwan sees it quite differently.



Larry: Thanks for your thumbs up on the Korg D1600, which I assume is basically the predesesor to the D1600MKII. I've throughly enjoyed your excellent music & CDs you've shared with me in the past. I hope you might post some of your music (produced on the D1600?). I really think your daughter has a wonderful singing voice.



Since the ability to record/playback 24 bit is particularly important to me, I returned the AW16G and got the the Korg D1600MKII, abeit $300 less in my bank account now. I think it's worth it though because the D1600MKII not only supports 24 bit recording/playback, but includes a 40 GB hard drive (vs 20 GB hd on the AW16G), and also includes USB (not included on the AW16G) to enable you to conveniently transfer tracks to a PC for processing in desktop PC audio programs like: Cool Edit, SoundForge, and Cakewalk Sonar. The other thing I appreciate right off about the D1600MKII is it's touch screen. I don't like touch screens on a live performance keyboard, but on a DAW, it's very cool.

Don't know if it's just my imagination but listening to the D1600MKII & AW16G's respective demo songs thru the same pair of pro level headphones, the Korg D1600MKII sounds (to me) richer & fatter than the sound on the demo in the Yamaha AW16G. Whether 24 bit vs 16 bit has anything to do with this I don't know, but I can definitely hear a difference.




Though I can understand the growing need for music retailers to begin charging restocking fees, my receipt clearly states that they give a 30 day 'full refund' if for any reason I'm not satisfied with the unit, and it does NOT mention any kind of restocking fee. My sales associate re-assured me that I have a FULL 30 days to return (for a full refund w/o restocking fees) the Korg D1600MKII for any reason, but I'm pretty confident that this is going to be a keeper. In the meantime, it's going to be hard to find much time to explore the unit until after the holidays, because of the hectic holiday gig schedule. Still, I hope to find at least a few moments sometime to play with the new toy. I promise to keep you guys posted. I'll probably have at least a few questions along the way.



Yep, that's definitely my plan! but probably won't be able to find a much time to devote to this project till after the hectic holiday gig schedule is over. From the general spirit & spending (& tipping) habits of my clients & audiences this year, it appears consumer confidence is definitely UP over last year.

Thanks again to everyone(Jim, Mike, Larry,Gary, Maged, Terry, Tommy, Tony, George, and Donny) for all your helpful input & feedback. Happy holidays to everyone at Synthzone. - Scott

Mike
Although the Digi is cool the major drawback I see is you have to use all their stuff together otherwise it doesn't work, so one has to go totally Digi.
Terry

------------------
jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

Hi Scott,

I strongly recommend you go to www.korgstudios.com which is a forum for Korg digital recorders and has a lot of really nice, knowledgeable people who are interested in helping people learn to use the Korg recorders. Huge data base of information on the recorders and how to use them plus nice people with no flaming and no strange ego trips. The first thing to do is to download the FAQ and read through it and then go from there.

I love my D1600 but wish it had the USB port the MKII has instead of the SCSI port it has. Would make it super easy to transport to the PC whereas now I have to burn a CDRW and carry it to the PC to get my wave files into Sound Forge for editing/mastering.

It's a wonderful machine and I'm sure you will love it and be glad you got it.

Tom

------------------
Bigger is not always better

Scott:
Glad to see you got the Korg and like it. When I suggested the D1600, I really meant the MKII. I'm still using the original D16, which works like a charm. However, no internal CD burner. I use a stand-alone HHB unit to burn CDs. In my case, size of gear and useable space in a "closet" studio is a major consideration for every purchase. The D16 is about the size of a book. Hope you enjoy the new toy and post some results soon.

Tom, Many thanks for turning me on to what looks to be a wonderful site. As a 'newbie' to 'digital audio workstation' recording I know I'll find this site invaluable.



I Would love to hear some of your music produced on your Korg D1600.



Yes, the D1600MKII's 'USB port' was a BIG factor (2nd only to its 24 bit recording capability) in my decision to go with the MKII version. I'm really curious though, if the D1600MKII supports USB 2.0. Anyone know?

If it does, I think it's time for me to invest in a USB 2.0 PCI card. Any brand/model recommendations? I just hope I have a spare PCI slot available in my PC (Dell Dimension 8200).


Scott

The D16's SMALL size is definitely a BIG plus, especially for taking on the road.

I had really grappled over the 'size vs feature issue' in trying to decide between the smaller Korg D1200MKII or the larger D1600MKII, but my muisc store sale associate convinced me that even though I might not think I need to use all the recording tracks of the larger D1600 now, that I will 'much sooner than later' appreciate & want to use 'all' of them. In addition, the 1600's touch screen navigation really is COOL! The smaller D1200 doesn't include this.

Scott

Scott,

I'm using this one: http://www.conceptronic.net/product3.asp?g=7&p=*CSP480C3

Very easy to install under Windows XP. Two USB 2.0 ports + ONE very useful (for Digital Cameras, MP3 players, USB MiniDisks) Mini USB port.

There are many other good options, of course.

-- José.

Cool, but isn't the one you're refering to intended only for use on laptops?

Btw: many THANKS for the terrific santa surprise package I received in the mail from you recently. I find all the goodies real helpful & useful, especially now, during this very busy gig season. Happy Tyros & Merry Christmas - Scott

Of course it's a PCMCIA solution... Where do I have my head? For desktop PCs the solution should be even less expensive, but I have no experience on this.

-- José.




[This message has been edited by matias (edited 12-11-2003).]

Hi Scott,

Unfortunately, the USB is only 1.1, so if you have that capability you don't need to get 2.0. It's not really a big deal, though. What you do is use a 2 gig partition to store your wave files (songs) on and then read that partition from the computer and load the wave file directly into whatever editing/mastering software you choose to use. My personal preference is to use Sound Forge 6 (or 7) for editing and then use EZ CD Creator (last version of 5) to burn a disk at once CD. SF 7 is REALLY fast in it's rendering and comes with enough directX plugins that you can do most anything necessary using it alone. The WaveHammer is a particularly good compressor for mastering use.

Tom

------------------
Bigger is not always better

Just FYI. The AW series does not use a compressed format.




------------------
Steve Deming
Assistant Manager
Customer Support Dept.
Pro Audio & Combo Division
Yamaha Corporation of America
YCASupport@yamaha.com
714.522.9000

Steve
Then I stand corrected as it was my understanding that in fact it did compress the data. Thanks for the correction.
Terry

------------------
jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html



[This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 12-12-2003).]

Scott,
It's been 2 days .... isn't it time to exchange the 1200 for something esle?

Uncle Dave, The last 2 days I couldn't even find time to exchange my underwear. Seriously though, the D1200mkII looks to be the perfect fit. I realized that size 'does' matter, and at least in 'this case', small is what I needed.

The D1200mkII's an all in one 24 bit recording studio in an ultra portable (7 lb) package. What's particularly appealing is that its USB support allows you to easily transfer tracks to/from the PC: for data backup, or to work with in Sonar or SoundForge. In addition, I really love those tiny new (9 lb) KRK V4 near field monitors I got for monitoring/mixing: great detail,tonally neutral, well balanced, and non-fatigueing. With the added KRK S8 sub, it sounds even better. Check them out if you haven't already heard these yet:

Sound on Sound Magazine Review: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr02/articles/krkv4s8.asp

I'm looking forward to spending more time playing with this new gear as soon as this mad xmas gig rush settles down. Got 3 shows back to back today.

Happy holidays to all - Scott

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 12-13-2003).]