(For some unknown reason, my previous posting of the same title, got mixed with Wis' post about G70 styles)


Hi there,
I played a little with Banstand. It has a built in MIDI file player so I recorded a demo for you. Since most of you play "oldies", I chose a midifile containing acoustic instruments and a brush drum set.

click on
http://users.forthnet.gr/ath/trident/mack_knife4.mp3 to download Mack the Knife, http://users.forthnet.gr/ath/trident/MACKNIFE.MID is the midi file used to create the mp3, http://users.forthnet.gr/ath/trident/bandstand.jpg is a picture of the Bandstand mix window for quick reference on various settings

I didn't fiddle with the track levels, but don't have your speakers too high up because I play with the real time EQ during recording and the results sound a little foolish sometimes. After recording, I "maximised" the wave file in Goldwave sound editor. Initially it was an 24 bit/96 KHz sound file, ~81MB, now a 160Kbps/48KHz mp3 file, about 4,2 MB.

Bandstand responds to Bank Changes midsong or if I change a patch or style on my Casio, but takes about 20 seconds (my estimate) to fully load all the necessary instruments in the beggining of a midi file. After you fiddle a while, load time is lessened a bit, but still you see the "loading...." window.

If you want any particular file done, send me a GM midi file to
t r i d e n t @ f r e e m a i l . g r (remove the spaces and notify me here, because I don't check that account much) and I'll try to send you the mp3 rendered in Bandstand. It will be better if the midi file has every instrument on its' own channel, since if bandstand encounters a patch change, it will load the instrument while it plays, thus effectively muting the track for about 3-5 seconds.

Hope you like it,
Theodore

[This message has been edited by trident (edited 01-15-2006).]

Trident thanx for the Banstand review looks like a very kool program with many features...... I personally use SONAR for SMF I guess Im used to it.
Anyway if your interested heres my demo version of "Mack The Knife"
http://www.donnypesce.com/Mackdemo.mp3

Impressive Donny, impressive.

I had been interested in Bandstand as a possible sound module for my computer arranger "One Man Band".

I recently got a chance to try it out when I helped one of my musician friends set up Bandstand in his computer. We used it from inside of Sonar as a DXi, but it also works as a standalone, vst or an RTAS ( Pro Tools ) plug in.

I also brought along my copy of the freeware SGM180 soundfont and installed it into his comp to get an A/B demo feel. We used The Freeware Van Basco Karaoke player to trigger the midifiles used with SGM180.

He doesn't have OMB or a hardware arranger, but he does have Band in a Box so we A/B'd both modules with that as well. Because it takes a bit of time to load up instruments, BIAB did not work well at all with Bandstand. For quite a few of the BIAB styles, the basic midi parameters and sometimes the instruments themselves change when going from Variation A to B, and Bandstand simply couldn't keep up. It does not appear that it would be a practical solution for me with OMB.

Bandstand worked ok with the midifiles we used, but you cannot go "instantly" from one song to the next. OTOH, SGM180 loaded up instruments quickly and efficently. CPU drain was pretty close to equal ( a mild surprise there, thought the soundfont would be more efficient ), but his computer was more than adequate for either.


As far as actual sounds, it was a tossup. Another surprise, since Bandstand uses approx 10 times the amount of sampling memory that SGM180 uses. He and I were in pretty close agreement about the sounds btw. We particularly liked the AC pianos, acoustic & clean electric guitars, and organs better on Bandstand. The drums were a tossup, as well as the electric basses, reed and horn sounds. We didn't much care for the majority of the analog synth sounds on either ( no surprise there ).

Surprisingly, we liked the strings, overdrive / disto guitars, acousic bass, and electric pianos / clavs better on SGM180.

After this test, I'm determined to continue modifying the SGM180 to the point that all of the instruments I don't care for on it are replaced. While Bandstand is a very smoothe app with a really cool interface, I dont think it would work for me. I like the interface enough that if it would load up the instruments faster, I would consider replacing some of the internal samples in it with ones I like better. I would simply replace some of the existing samples being careful to rename the new ones exactly as they are named inside of the app's folder.

AJ


[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 01-15-2006).]

AJ here are some of the recommendations I left with NI on their Bandstand forum:

1. Provide the customer with choice in the wavetable they wish to use, e.g., SGM128, SGM180, GigaSampler GM500, Bandstand Voices, etc. The thing about soundfonts is that the technology is getting old but the good news is that there are thousands of them out there for free.....I think I have them all. In fact, before Bandstand I used sYnerGi GS (drums XG compatible) modified with instruments from GM500. This wavetable weighted in at about 128mb after my modifications.
2. Provide a Lite version of the Wavetable so that you can load all of it (or most of it) into memory as a preset. This would solve the delay or hiccup caused while waiting for the instruments to load before playing a midi or style file or changing instruments while the style or midi file is playing.
3. Provide a higher quality (larger byte size) wavetable for higher quality performance (in studio or high class night club, book store/coffee shop) where you can take a little longer to load your instruments (pre load - preset).
4. Provide all wavetables which are GM, GS and XG compatible with respect to the drums (midi note number matches the drum instruments with respect to these standards).
5. Allow drums to be loaded on any channel.
6. It is absolutely critical that the quality of the drums is maintained throughtout all this. Midi or style files would quickly suffer if this were not the case.

They are currently working on updates to Bandstand and kontakt. It will be interesting to see what comes of all this. One of the NI people has converted SGM180 to the Bandstand format and I believe some people found the quality very good .... and of course it loads instantly.

Frank, where do you think all this soft synth stuff will be in a year or two?

Thanks Frank. As I said, I think Bandstand's interface is very useful, and my friend does as well, and as he will mainly use it in his studio, it will probably work ok for him we think, so he does not regret the purchase.

I am going to give him copies of the samples I've made and will make for my own soundfont from the existing modules I have, and he is going to try replacing some of the internal samples that he does not care for.

Perhaps if it works out for him, and some of the suggestions you mentioned are actually integrated into the software, I would consider purchasing Bandstand as well. For now though, I see no advantage over using SGM180 except that I like a few of Bandstand's sounds better.

Donny,

That's a good Question. I think the trend continues toward developing much more detailed apps that utilize a lot more memory. The biggest limitations to major advances with this stuff that I can forsee in the immediate future is in the need for speed of processors and hard drive rpm's. Still, without a major change to the way it is designed, I see nothing in hardware that can match software for sonic quality of individual instruments.

BTW, great rendition of old "Mackie" there. You've got it nailed.

AJ

Dnj, it is a tough call as to where softsynths will go in the near future. My guess it will be gradual improvements in both sounds and effects with greater support for the live performer. This would be a nice change over only supporting the big studios (serious composer, movie & TV). The improvements will need to be in step with enhancements in hardware (CPU, memory, soundcards, hard drives and so on).

When it comes to hardware considerations to run the soft synths one may see more developments in small sized computers (rack mounted PCs, lap top, small form PCs - Shuttle) and rack mounted VSTs, e.g., http://www.museresearch.com/

If one thinks in terms of GM, GS and XG then the next major step up would be using something like the 16 GB (or so) Colossus GM Wavetable for live performances. Colossus is considered by many to be the best quality GM wavetable out there to day. This would need some major hardware improvements.

I also think there will be more modeling of acoustic instruments. Saxes need some help. Now I have some good samples but it still falls short. The stuff you find on hardware based workdstations and arranger keyboards just does not make it in my books....it is good enough for live performances.....may be.

There will be some emphasis on improving quality....a good thing. Some of the companies may have been growing to rapidly and ignored customer support....at their peril.

Given where we came from say 5 years ago I can't help but be very pleased with the progress. My flr2006 system is amazing in comparison. Keep in mind my emphasis is on virtual acoustic type instruments.

AJ, I am not certain whether you will be able to change or replace instruments within Bandstand. My guess is these things are setup this way for copy protection of the wavetable and/or preserving their overall quality (corporate image). This is just a feeling I have from some of the discussions on the NI Forum with NI staff. I think they will consider relaxing this in the next update given some of the criticism they have received. I happen to like Bandstand sounds for things like Jazz, Lite Pop and Country (acoustic type instruments vs analog).


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 01-16-2006).]

Aj,
Thanx for the reply.....I guess we'll have to wait & see what is presented to us in the future, theres no end to technology in music production, limited only to your imagination. Who know there might even be things that dont even exsist at this time that will still be inveted in years to come. Heck weve only had airplanes for less then 100 years!

I tried Banstand for a very little while yesterday, before recording the midi file I sent, but I was really expected it to sound better out of the box.

What I wanted it to be, was a superior sounding engine, ready to accept what the ancient Casio is sending through the MIDI out, meaning melody in 1 or 2 tracks, (maybe 4 if I layer 2 souds LH and 2 in RH, very seldom used) and the accompaniment in 5 tracks including drums. Didn't used it as a VST instrument though I should, because the damned Casio sends the bass out 1 octave higher than it should, and it sounds unrealistic.

So, utilising it as an one-stop-shop sound "refresher" is yet to be proved. In addition, I loaded up Roland's HyperCanvas and found it once again, easy to use, versatile and tweakable. Bandstand gives you chorus, reverb, EQ and that's it. Hypercanvas lets you tweak every sound to your heart's content right away, but you have to tie controllers with CC in your external midi contoller to tweak Bandstand sounds.

As for the sound itself, hmmmmm...... never tried SG180 and such, but Hypercanvas does almost the same job, please don't shoot me. Electric Guitars are alive and believable in Hypercanvas, but very tame and electronic sounding in Bandstand. Drums are better in Bandstand, have to look closely in the acoustic guitars to form an opinion. On the other Hand, Hypercanvas sounds work very good together.

As for the future of soft synths, there is a company that makes a "box" that is essentially a PC-in-a-box (Frank pointed out this product once If I remember well). If they can make this box sort of a "fool-proof-black-box-I-don't-care-what's-inside-as-long-as-it sounds-good-and-doesn't-crash", they can sell it as a replacement to the tone modules we (you) have today. Strap it on your controller and go.

Theodore

I still like Hyper Canvas a lot..of the others that I own and tried..the overall winner to me is Hyper Canvas..I am referring to GM playback mostly...There are favorite sounds I like in my other Soft synths..piano from Super Quartet, as an example..My KeyRig[M-Audio] is nice, but does not compete with HyperCanvas...If I didn't own HyperCanvas I would be thinking KeyRig is the Total winner...at any rate for the money, you will find it hard to beat KeyRig...but for a little more $, I'm glad I have Hyper Canvas.

The other thing I did not mention is the need for a good control surface. Now some things are happening but again they are happening for the studio (Cubase & Sonar) where the hardware is being built to match up with these sequencers. We need something like that for our style players and soft synths.

There are some choices out there that have everything in a keyboard (Windows, soft synths, HDs, soundcards, etc.)....but still way to expensive. I guess my preference would be to have some company build a keyboard that has nothing in it but the operating system and all the keys, knobs, faders one needs to get the job done. This could at minimum meet or exceed the GM2 standard. In this case the customer goes out and buys the soundcards, HDs, soft synths and anything else needed to get the job done. This bare GM2 based keyboard should be costed at somewhere around say $1k. With another $1k you could get the rest for a total of say $2k. What's wrong with that....it is flexible and completely satisfies customer needs.

Alternatively, build the same keyboard but don't include the operating system and rather buy an external computer to do the rest. This would be my favorite approach...very flexible....cost effective???

Fran, I agree with you that HyperCanvas is great out of the box but once you tune up Bandstand it does not do so well. Bandstand has higher quality samples and effects, e.g., convolution reverb, etc. However, it costs more and is harder on the CPU. If you want to use soft synths for live performances then something like HyperCanvas or SGM180 are good alternatives. I still think you need something better for lead or melody voices. I find even Bandstand is not good enough for this and will continue to use kontakt and sample libraries such as GPO, GJ&BB, Colossus, B4 and so on.

I think NI will solve major sound and operating issues with Bandstand and it will become the go to sampler for things like style or midi files. We shall see. I currently use Bandstand and have converted my most commonly used styles to the GM format with the great help from M. Bedesem's MidiPlayer II.


[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 01-16-2006).]

trident, to use Bandstand you can setup all your CC# stuff in your midi or style files. I think you can do the same thing by sending it SysEx messages. When it comes to effects, volumes, levels, etc. Bandstand is GM, GM2, GS and XG compatible.

So with a little work you can get Bandstand to sound pretty good. Oh, and you need to make sure that all the drum channels are merged to Channel 10. In addition, that you select the appropriate drum instruments within each kit. I used M. Bedesem's MidiPlayer II for this.....fast and easy.

I would hazard a guess that in 3 or 4 months Bandstand will have no competion. If on top of everything they allow you to use any other instruments, SGM180, GM500, kontakt, etc. then it becomes a very simple useful sample player. I would still like to have kontakt around for tweaking samples and performing the very high qaulity stuff.

Hi Theo,
if you want to try soundfonts with a midifile , try downloading synthfont,
doesn't require a creative soundcard, or any other software to play fonts
http://www.rundt.de.vu/

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by trident:
[B]

As for the sound itself, hmmmmm...... never tried SG180 and such,

Hi Frank,
some great suggestions.

Be great if one day sounds will be replaceble within a program like Bandstand, the same as you can do in a soundfont. If you're not happy with a sound, you just replace it.

I know one function I'd really luv to see in a software arranger, the use of audio drum loops that can sync in time with a style.
I discovered I have this function in my sd1+.
No more worrying about converting drums , wrong velocities etc find a great sounding loop ( groove) replace one of the drum tracks in the style, and use the other to add a few extra drums.

Also wondering if I wanted to use my SD1 to play the actual styles, could a sampler like Kontakt ( or whatever) be used to play the melody/lead voice?? Not asking whether the sd1 is capable of doing it, just what sort of setup is required on the softsynth side of things.


best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Frank L. Rosenthal:
[B]AJ here are some of the recommendations I left with NI on their Bandstand forum:

Rikki, you are way ahead of me.....and I can't help but feel abandoned in my soft synth world.

Yes, you can use your SD1 to play lead or melody voices while using it to play the SD1 styles at the same time. All you need to do is set up the Channels you wish to use for this purpose and load in the appropriate instruments in kontakt and away you go. If you are going to use very high quality instruments then keep in mind it takes some 30 seconds or so to load a 2 GB Piano, etc. In a case like this you would preload such instruments in the channels of your choice and then change channels on your SD1 to call them up and play....instantly. As another alternative you could set up a multi in kontakt and then use program change numbers to call up the instruments you require. This may work best in your example of using the SD1 for both purposes (auto accompaniment and soft synth lead voices). Again you would preload all the instruments you require.

Rikki I trust you know that you can use Sonar or Cubase to play drum loops in sync with other things. I haven't checked but there could be VST instruments which may do the same thing....worth a check.

Hi Frank,
I'm still using OMB as well as the sd1. I've got some Yammie styles that i really like, & I'm not sure whether it's worth the hassle of converting them over to the sd1. Plus I like the idea of virtually having 2 keyboards.

Loading time for a lead instrument wouldn't be that big a hassle for me, just handy to know it can be done.

The loops in cubase & sonar, I assume that's only for midifiles/songs, they couldn't be used in realtime with OMB ( ie replacing the drum track & playing a loop instead.

That's the beauty of the sd1 drum track 2, it syncs the loop to the style, it's just as if you were playing a normal drum track.

best wishes
Rikki
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Frank L. Rosenthal:
[B]