Hi!

I am currently planning a home studio and need to know how to setup my gear in the best way. I will connect 4 keyboards(Yamaha Tyros, Korg Trinity, Roland A-90Ex, Korg IX-300), 1 guitar and 1 microphone as a start. I have a PC equipped with an RME Fireface 800 audio interface (8 * 8 ins/outs) and I have 2 active Mackie HR 824 studio monitors. I will choose a mixer that best suits this kind of environment.

I wonder how to connect all this equipment in the best way? The best way I can think of is the following:

-My instruments are connected directly to the mixer's analog inputs.
-My studio monitors are connected to the mixer's main outputs.
-8 channels on the mixer works as recording channels, each of these channel's direct output goes to the audio interface's inputs.
-I use 2 (6 for surround) outputs on the audio interface connected to 2 (or 6) additional inputs on the mixer.

I will also use an 8 port MIDI interface, but I guess this automatically works just fine in this kind of setup?!

But using direct outputs makes me switch manually if I use 8 certain recording channels? I read that with ATL 3-4 I can choose which channels to output, by pressing an ATL button on that channel so I can get any of the channel's inputs to work as recording channels. But that requires 8 outputs on the ATL bus right? Doi mixer's have that? I cannot use only 2 outputs...

If this is the best way of connecting my setup I guess I need something like the Mackie Onyx 1640 16-Channel Mixer to get the direct outputs. But what about all these buses, control rooms etc that some mixer's have instead of direct outputs?

I also have a SPDIF in and out on the sound card + spdif in the Trinity and Tyros. How can I take advantage of these?

[This message has been edited by YamahaAndy (edited 03-05-2005).]

[This message has been edited by YamahaAndy (edited 03-05-2005).]

[This message has been edited by YamahaAndy (edited 03-05-2005).]

Take a look at these strange direct output connectors on the Onyx. How can I convert them to normal output connectors that fits the audio interface? And how can I take advantage of the optional firewire feature?



[This message has been edited by YamahaAndy (edited 03-05-2005).]

I suspect you have to buy more hardware from Mackie.

I've got a home recording setup similar to yours, but have never had the need for separate mixer outputs for every channel. I'm not sure I understand what good it would do!

I have a Tascam TM-D1000 mixer with 16 analogue channels. I have my two keyboards, mic preamp, and effects processor plugged straight into my Delta 1010 soundcard's inputs/outputs. I use a spare pair of outputs to go to my mixer for monitoring.

Yes, so in effect my Tascam mixer is just a glorified volume knob. I've found it's just a heck of a lot easier doing all of my mixing within Cubase, for mix recall/automation, etc. than doing it manually with the analogue faders. I love being able to 'patch in' my external effects processor from within Cubase too.

I guess ideally, a killer digital mixer with motorised faders and multichannel interface would be the best route... if money really did grow on trees.

Carrie

Check out the new Alesis Firewire mixers, you have an analog mixer that at the same time is a sound card for your PC, no drivers need to be install, a true "plug & play".....depending on the model, but I think their prices are from $399.00 to $599.00.....great for live performance, as well for your studio.

YamahaAndy, I purchased a Yamaha 01X two weeks ago.
After a difficult installation with mLan (firewire) my setup is now complete.
The 01X is a digital studio mixer with motorized faders,DSP (2 effect processors),controller for Cubase (or other software sequencer).
I had to build a brand new pc to get it work without problems.
No soundcard, no heavy VGA, just lots of ram, fast cpu, a fast HD and a compatible firewire PCI card.
The 01X will do all the rest.
Although I don't know all the possibilities yet, I'm very excited about the studio mixer.
Just take a look at the 01X website and maybe it is what you are looking for.
www.01xray.com

Jan

Ow forgot to mention, the 01X has a special electric guitar input.

I'm in the process of setting up an almost identical setup to what you mention. I was thinking of setting it up in the exact configuration you mention. I was planning to use the inserts on my mixer as direct outs from which to go to the interface, and then send the a stereo mix of the interface back to the mixer. But this is assuming that the insert "trick" will work. Let us know how it goes.

The problem with my mixer though, is that the stereo channels don't have inserts or direct outs...

Chony

Chony, interesting that you are about to connect the same gear!

The ALT 3-4 bus way of connecting the mixer is not worth it, since the channels can be transmitted through only 1 stereo out (L and R), which means that only two channels can be recorded on separate tracks at once, something very limiting.

The only options except the ALT 3-4 I have seen is direct outs and inserts. Inserts can be used as direct outs if you plug in the cable halfway, something I think sounds a little risky/low quality approach. So the direct outs seem to be the solution to this. I have to find a good mixer with direct outputs on each channel. The onyx is an alternative, I just have to find out how those connectors can be converted to normal connectors on the audio interface. Since it is only 1 cable per 8 channels I can save some bucks, space and quality by using a converter instead of a lot of cables.

By having one output per channel on the mixer it means you are able to record any number of available inputs on the audio interface at the same time to separate audio tracks in the computer instead of having to record for instance 2 channels at a time and then have to record 4 times to get 8 channels recorded which makes you produce less result on a given time frame.

There are many reasons why a mixer is the way to go when using an audio interface:

- You can monitor both the signal you are recording and the playback signal in an easy way.

- You can adjust the level of your monitors from the mixer.

- You can monitor your external MIDI synths and modules without recording them to audio and when you want to record them to audio it's just a button press away.

- Manual mixer interface is easy

By being able to control the mix manually, the editing process is smoother and easier both when it comes to recording and playback.
By being able to add equalizing effects on tracks during recording in an easy way, you have more mixing power and the computer has less to process.

- The way of working is centralized to the mixer rather than to the audio interface

In a greater context this means you are able to control the environment in a more flexible and practical way.

- Separation between the external world and the recording world

This is good when you want several musicians live in the mix but only want to record maybe just a few instruments.

- One interface to several recording interfaces

If you run several computers in the recording/playback process simoultaneously it's much easier to manage the instruments against a mixer instead of x number of audio interfaces. The mixer then separates the signals to different audio interfaces.

- Better way of using subwoofers in the mix

By using dedicated outputs for subwoofers you are getting a better way of using subwoofers in the mix.

- Internal and external effect monitoring per channel in realtime

By being able to manually control the the effects per channel you are equipped with more powerful mixing features.

- External effect units can be shared by a combination of instruments simoultaneously via the AUX and the level can be edited in real-time per channel.

This is good when using compressors, reverbs and other external effect units in the chain.

Best regards,
YamahaAndy

[This message has been edited by YamahaAndy (edited 03-06-2005).]

[This message has been edited by YamahaAndy (edited 03-06-2005).]

Well, I finally found the solution to this. The ALT 3-4 bus is the answer, but its name is somewhat confusing when thinking of the definition. A better word is sub outs, but sub groups is also used.

When I use the RME Fireface 800 and want to be able to record 8 channels simoultaneously to 8 separate tracks in the computer and use a mixer in the chain, that mixer needs to be 8 Bus (have 8 subgroups). This allows me to route 8 channels out to 8 inputs on the audio interface. Then I can connect the active monitors to the main outs on the mixer. The 8 Bus technology is better than direct outputs in that any of the mixer's channels can act as recording channels by using an ATL or mute button so I don't have to replug the instruments in order to choose what instruments to record. This is a much better approach than using inserts halfway for this purpose.

The Behringer MX9000 Eurodesk Mixer seems to be a good bang for the bucks when it comes to 8 Bus mixers, but I'm still not sure about its sound quality, it might be a little noisy. I have to check that out.

[This message has been edited by YamahaAndy (edited 03-06-2005).]

[This message has been edited by YamahaAndy (edited 03-06-2005).]

I read about the Behringer MX9000 and found out that it uses the 8 subgroups in pairs:

Each input channel has:

Button1: Subgroup 1-2
Button2: Subgroup 3-4
Button3: Subgroup 5-6
Button4: Subgroup 7-8

While this works great with stereo instruments and an audio interface it becomes a little limiting if you connect mono instruments also. Take a look at this scenario:

I need to record:
3 synths (L + R)
2 mics

Channel1:
Synth1 L Button1 pressed

Channel2:
Synth1 R Button1 pressed

Channel3:
Synth2 L Button2 pressed

Channel4:
Synth2 R Button2 pressed

Channel5:
Synth3 L Button3 pressed

Channel6:
Synth3 R Button3 pressed

Channel7:
Mic1 Button4 pressed

Channel8:
Mic2 Button4 pressed

As you can see the button4 (subgroup 7 and 8) is routing to both mic 1 and mic2. Then they end up on the same tracks in the sequencer which is not what I want! Luckily the Behringer MX9000 has direct outs that can be used on the two mic mono channels. There might also be a way of routing one channel to only one subgroup, but in the manual I didn't find any such instructions, just 4 buttons with subgroup pairs enabled/disabled.

I read the manual a bit more and figured out that the above scenario is not a problem because it's (strangely enough) the pan that decides which subgroup(s) that channel routes to. If it is set to L it routes to the odd subgroup number and if it is set to R it routes to the even subgroup number. If the pan is set to mid, the channel is transmitted to both subgroups. Therefore you can connect 8 tracks on the mixer to 8 input tracks on the audio interface in this way by the sub groups:

Channel1:
Mic1 PAN L Button1 (-> sub group 1)

Channel2:
Mic2 PAN R Button1 (-> sub group 2)

Channel3:
Mic3 PAN L Button2 (-> sub group 3)

Channel4:
Mic4 PAN R Button2 (-> sub group 4)

Channel5:
Mic5 PAN L Button3 (-> sub group 5)

Channel6:
Mic6 PAN R Button3 (-> sub group 6)

Channel7:
Mic7 PAN L Button4 (-> sub group 7)

Channel8:
Mic8 PAN R Button4 (-> sub group 8)

It's also cool that the 8 buses are duplicated onto 16 jacks so you can route each channel to two differently manipulated signal paths into a 16 channel audio interface (for instance a clean and a crunch guitar all in one) without having to re-patch or re-record. Another very nice feature in the Behringer MX9000 is that you can use the direct outs on the rest of the channels(with predefined recording channels) and get up to 24 channels out, which is very good if you expand with an additional RME interface or external D/A A/D converter interface. But if you need 2 outputs back from the computer you can only use 22 of these direct outs effectively since two are required for the computer's main outs.

Overall I think I need an 8 Bus mixer, especially since I then also can specialize each bus and route it out however I want to. For instance if I buy some guitar amps I might run a Fender amp and a Marshall amp on the same bus and always be able to setup different guitars onto several setups without having to repatch anything! In a greater context I would even be able to dedicate several buses to the the same signal type e.g. with 2 buses for guitar get 4 different amps available on any of the 24 channels on the mixer! I am not made of money, so the Behringer is a good choice for me even though it might add some noise in the signal path. I read that it's only the mic pre amps that can get a little noisy when run on max level. The mics for vocals might be best routed directly to the RME.

[This message has been edited by YamahaAndy (edited 03-06-2005).]

[This message has been edited by YamahaAndy (edited 03-06-2005).]

In my setup, similar to what you are trying to achieve, I went with the Tascam Dm24 and have never regreted it. It now has the 24 i/o firewire card available. I have had my Dm24 about 2 1/2 years now. It was fabulous at the price I paid for it then and it is a incredible deal now that it has been superseded by the DM32. If you have not already bought something else, it may be worhwhile to check one out. Btw, those strange direct outs on the Onyx could be tdif or maybe you just need a breakout cable.

Regards,

Danny

Bingo! Thanks Danny for your advice! I checked out the product and YES, it seems to be a powerful product with a low price tag together with the 24 i/o interface! Being able to record up to 16 channels at 96 kHz/24-bit is much better than the RME with its 8 inputs.

[This message has been edited by YamahaAndy (edited 03-06-2005).]

Wow Danny that looks amazing? Is that both an analog mixer and digital interface? Does it have automatic faders? I've done a lot of research but never come accross that before...

Andy, why wouldn't the inserts work as outputs? Using a patch cable, why would I have to insert the cable half way?

Chony

I found the Tascam here for $1899: http://store.yahoo.com/drumandguitar/tadm32dimico.html

If you don't find it cheaper you might just want to price match it locally.

Thanks chony for the link! I emailed and asked them what it would cost to be shipped internationally to me with all taxes included. It's like 1434 euro before taxes etc and that's a price that is really low, when it costs 2299 euro at thomann.de. If the moms/tax is 22% and the shipping is 200 euro it should cost about 1950 euro, so I would still save a lot of bucks...!

You shouldn't have to pay tax from the US, though you might have a problem at the customs of your country. And shipping should be nowhere near that high.

It's not bingo anymore! There is a reason why things are cheap.

I'm getting more and more consirned about what I will really get for the money since it is told to be 24 ins/outs.

1.What I get is 14 channels in/out at 96kHz on 24-bit resolution, so it's a 14 channel mixer.

2.Quality issues? Tascam is not, what I've heard, a manufacturer of great PC drivers. Latency? What happens with the latency if I run 14 channels @ 96 or 24 channels @ 48 on a medium quality PC driver?

4.Useless digital effects? I read that the effects in the tascam are somewhat flat and not that good.

5.Expandability issues?

So what happens when I count in this in the price? It's not so cheap anymore... No matter how stellar the converters, how nice the mic pre’s, or how expensive or inexpensive an audio interface may be it doesn’t mean squat if the drivers are not up to snuff. Good drivers allow for stability and low latency operation. So by going for the Tascam DM24 I might end up with a unit that has almost what it takes to be able to record 14 tracks simoultaneously at 96 KHz into a computer.

I came to realise that for me the most important part in the chain will be the audio interface. I know what will upset me the most, that is driver problems in software sequencers. Cheap is good when quality is there, but when it isn't it really sucks!

I've done one mistake in my life so far when it comes to purchasing music gear. I have chosen cheap once in my life. That was a Behringer V-Amp 2 that the experts were bragging about. It surely was cheap, it surely was nice looking, and I surely got a chock when I started to play that thing! What could I do with amp simulations and speaker cabs when it all was just noise? I can tell you it was not fun to return such a beautiful peace of crap! I read the same thing about a guy that had stability problems with the firewire card for his DM24. The most scary part was that he seemed to be more of an expert than I am.

[This message has been edited by YamahaAndy (edited 03-06-2005).]

So I finally know what I don't want.

I don't want Behringer and I don't want Tascam. I want Mackie!

I want Mackie Onyx 1640 with firewire card. 16 channels true 96 KHz 24-bit recording with quality sound for a cheap buck: 2000 euro.

hi YamahaAndy (and others),

i'm new to this forum, which i find great, and have some questions about the fireface audio interface that i'm seriously considering buying!

interestingly enough(!), i would end up with a configuration which would be quite similar to yours and some others here: i'm a keyboard player and have a few keyboards + 2 electric/acoustic guitars as instruments (keyboards are main instruments however). also, i have Mackie HR824 monitor speakers (great ones) that i use with my Mackie 1604 VLZ Pro as analog mixer. so, it goes like:

keyboards -> mackie mixer -> monitors

pretty simple!

so far, i've been doing most of my recordings on the integrated sequencer of one of my keyboards (old Korg 01wfd), but now i want to use the fireface and my newly-built pc (small-form factor, with one pci slot only (main reason i'm going firewire))!

so my question is: can i get rid of my Mackie analog mixer and just use the fireface as following:

keyboards -> fireface -> monitors

does fireface have appropriate monitor outs (does it sound any less good than the mackie mixer for example), and more specifically, can i still use the fireface (as above) _without_ my computer ON while not recording and just playing around with ideas on the keyboard?

i still very much like my mackie mixer, but it's just too big for my little home studio space! i don't mind keeping it (especially that it's very practical to adjust all levels in real-time with just a knob or two), but i'm just curious to know whether i absolutely need a mixer and if yes, would it introduce any audible noise in the recording chain?

as you can see from my questions, i'm a newbie in home studio recording!

thanks all for any help....
justin

Andy, I'm happy to see you went Mackie. I'm using a Behringer mixer - I was told that even though its half the price its just as good. Yeah right. There's no such thing!

Hi. I don't think you need the individual outs at all. The optional Mackie Firewire interface converts everything from analog to digital INSIDE the board and sends everything to your computer and each channel is recorded SEPARATELY as wav files with their free software that comes with the Firewire Interface. 8 Channels==one cable.
I have the 12 channel Mackie Onyx board and the preamps are fantastic. For the money, I don't think you'll get the same audio quality with anything else.
Also, I think you can get by with the 12 channel version. The first 2 channels are XLR with a switch that activates a built in direct box if you need it. The next two are straight XLR inputs. The last 4 are 1/4" stereo.

Mackie Firewire Interface Info: http://www.mackie.com/products/onyxfirewire/

Here is part of Mackie's description of the Firewire interface capabilities:

"The Onyx FireWire Card is a true first. This user-installable 24-bit/96kHz card transforms the Onyx 1220, 1620 and 1640 mixers into fantastic-sounding digital audio interfaces capable of sending up to 18 channels of audio to your Mac or PC — without the need for additional converter boxes or hardware. Thanks to the use of flagship Onyx mic preamps, superior analog circuitry, and class-leading A/D converters, Onyx mixers with FireWire rival the sound quality of dedicated audio interfaces costing many times more. Not to mention the simplicity of plugging in up to 16 microphones and sending them directly from the mixer to your computer... and monitoring a stereo mix back through the mixer."

hi guys, sorry to re-post my question... i would appreciate if someone could help me with the following:

Question: can i use the fireface in a mixerless configuraion such as the following:

keyboards -> fireface -> monitors

and if yes, can i still use the fireface as a mixer with my computer OFF?

thanks a lot.
justin