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#112158 - 10/19/07 02:01 PM Re: Psr 3000, Roland E50 face to face
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
To use a car analogy, if a my car has a cigarette lighter, does that mean I MUST be a smoker?

They put one finger chords onto TOTL arrangers for the convenience of the few that buy them for their status, when a MUCH less expensive arranger would do.

But who do they stick samplers on for? Or style creation software? Or full sequencers? Or the other hundreds of esoteric functions? SURELY not 'one-finger' players...? No, they put these on for the arranger's INTENDED user.

The reason you don't see arrangers much on major shows is that they already have full bands...! And the players that play such gigs NEVER (OK, mostly never, chas!) need automatic backing for pro gigs.

OTOH, pros are a LOT more uncaring about WHAT you play, and a lot more concerned with HOW (unlike most here!). I have been bringing arrangers to 'pro' gigs and some sessions for a long time, and NO-ONE has ever called me out for it. I guess, once I start PLAYING, and they start listening, there goes the issue. Now, maybe if I sucked, I might get the benefit of the doubt and they might go 'you need to get a more 'pro' keyboard', but I doubt it. They will probably think (quite rightly!) that it is ME sucking!

What is it that makes these keyboards you see on the TV 'pro'? Is it that they are bought primarily by 'professionals'. WRONG! The majority of WSs are bought by players no more professional than most arranger players. Is it that they have NO automatic accompaniment? WRONG! Most modern WSs have all kinds of loop players and arpeggiated 'grooves'. Is it that they are PLAYED by professionals? It MUST be, because I can't think of any other reason these keyboards are so designated.

There is only one other thing that all 'pro' keyboards have in common... They are built to take abuse from the road, and from the player. MOST pros play fairly muscularly (most having learned on pianos) and expect a fair degree of touch and response from what they play. But this does NOT rule out arrangers. PLENTY of arrangers built to these standards (and some that aren't).

So, in the end, it is the PLAYER that determines whether a keyboard is 'pro' or not.

So, Ian... you go home and play your 'home' keyboard. I am off to my gig to play my 'pro' arranger!

Cigarette lighter? Don't smoke, don't need it...

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#112159 - 10/19/07 02:29 PM Re: Psr 3000, Roland E50 face to face
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10592
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Diki, I love playing my home keyboard, that's for sure, and I wish you could learn to embrace the fact that you play one as well...but, I guess you just aren't ready.

All the best,

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#112160 - 10/19/07 02:40 PM Re: Psr 3000, Roland E50 face to face
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Ian... I 'get' it.

PSR good.... others BAD!
PSR good.... others BAD!
PSR good.... others BAD!
PSR good.... others BAD!
PSR good.... others BAD!

Happy now, Reverend...? Now, off back to the Rectory with you, and go press a One Finger Chord for me, will you? I am waving which finger to use

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#112161 - 10/19/07 02:49 PM Re: Psr 3000, Roland E50 face to face
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 5645
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:

PSR good.... others BAD!



Diki, did you 'cut and paste' that? That's like auto-accompaniment, you cheater.



chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#112162 - 10/19/07 03:55 PM Re: Psr 3000, Roland E50 face to face
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10592
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Happy now, Reverend...? Now, off back to the Rectory with you, and go press a One Finger Chord for me, will you? I am waving which finger to use


Gee, Diki, all you got left is name calling and crude remarks?

Sorry bud, I'm not into that stuff...but your tactics are clearly more desperate and make it all the more clear that my remarks have struck a nerve.

Why not be proud that you can use a home keyboard in a pro situation? Many people on this forum do so, and seem quite content and not the least bit insecure about it.

I know you're an excitable guy and you need to sound as bright and informed as possible, but please try to do it more politely.

You seem to regard yourself as a "professional musician"...why not carry that a little further, and present your posts in like manner.

Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 10-20-2007).]
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#112163 - 10/19/07 11:45 PM Re: Psr 3000, Roland E50 face to face
jamman Offline
Member

Registered: 08/24/04
Posts: 620
Loc: City of Angels in the golden s...
Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll: to Uncle Dave
So the Korg marketers got you too...but, if you want to believe the PA-800 is a "pro" keyboard, I wouldn't poke fun at you, even though it is quite obvious it is a home keyboard with "easy play" features and auto-accompaniment.

I like playing my S900 home keyboard at pro gigs as well...


Ian



One thing you don't get is Ian,ALL Korg arrangers have their PRO workstion sound board with EXACT same editing power unlike BOTH Yamaha and Roland(not to mention SAME full blown sequencer with same memory,sample editing feature on a arranger). PSR s900 is nowhere close to Motif XS (It doesn't use the same board)(may have SA sounds which are great).Roland G 70/E80 is nowhere close to latest Fantom series.KORG however uses TRITON/Triton Extreme board in PA800 (minus Combi mode and less EFX)but the sound engine and editing is the SAME.

That's why even PA50 beats all e50/60 even 70 ,PSR 3000,s900/T2 in overall INDIVIDUAL sounds wise.Yes PSR has better Ac guitars,Sax , Roland have better piano,but overall individual sounds wise KORG arrangers are the only arrangers to fit in a live band.Almost all sounds are Sweet!,Live! or Cool! or better in Yamaha's terms.


Especially in older days -
(Roland arrangers -GS + some good sounds ,Yamaha arrabgers- XG +some good sounds ,KORG -full blown workstation sound board)-So who's talking about Pro?


KORG I3- uses X3 board(first workstaion with GM,O1w was not GM) in 1993 (No roland did't use their Jv80 board for E86)nor their XP series board for g1000(same old SC88/pro and GS format with very little JV sounds),.Yamaha all MU80 XG board(Yes no Sy 85 or W or EX series here) to their arrangers with some longer samples like Sax and so on.

Korg i30 will blow psr 2000/9000 pro or G1000 anyday in a band situation.

PA80/50 will again blow G70/80 or PSR 3k or tyros 1/2 anyday.

So in band situation KORG arrangers still stay at the top since their use of current workstation board.

But in arranger world it's a different story.PSR 2000 has pads playing loops that PA80 can't.Smoother fills and simpler yet more effective 8 beats that PA 80 does'nt have.Not so great VH but more flexible than PA 80's primitive VH that costs extra)Better OS that PA 80 doesn't have.Though PA 80 has overall better sound,punchier drums,better sound engine it fails as an arranger in the market.That's why psr 2k /2100 ruled the market in the early 2000's in WESTERN arranger market(Like Roland did in early to mid 90's).

Their secret is simple - light,less than $1500 KB with 4 variations, good OS and navigation ,direct disk play,user style writing (basic song recorder but other features outweighted),not so great but usuable VH,video out,score display etc-so many users -meaning great 3 party support and that KB will live on.Remember 3k had no competition (no less than $1500 KB that offers USB to device and SM card slot feature for storage,VH and video out).The competition was using floppy drive (PA50) and no storage at all (Rolands EXRs) though they cost the same as better equipped (feature and OS wise ) psr 1500.They did have better sounds(PA50),more keys(EXR 7),but not so great OS and 2 variattion with no user style writing (EXR series -what were they thinking?).

Again most PSR's popularity is in US(also some UK)plus Asian market(that plays westtern songs in clubs -Eg. Philippines to Thiland) who uses simpler 4/4 beats.
But not in mid east or EU(Germany) market when they use more ethnic user styles (9/8 rhythms)and sample loading/editing.Korg,Ketron and some Rolands have good market there.(Yamaha could have gone into that market too).PSR A1000 series doen't compare to PA series there).


Starting from PA1x(also in 800) they put this pads that play loops,bigger display(PA80 dislay was primitive compared to 2k). (they still doen't have Yamaha's Drum sync feature to SMF which I think is great great feature that both Roland and Korg lacks)(I would personally choose these feature over G70's primitive guitar mode feaure and Korg's great feature but not so great acoustic guitar voices'guitar mode).


So you may play PSR s900 with the band (but it won't sound like a Motif XS),or E80 (will not sound like a latest Fantom).But when you play a PA1x or PA800 you do know that you are playing a Triton /Triton X treme with controls(yes including 2 assignable switches,mutiple outs etc).yes it loads Triton programs , where your T2 or E 80/G70 can't do (from their workstations).

Just try a PA1x ,play Program mode ,and play all the sounds and side by side compare with G70/e80/Psr s900/T2 and you'll understand what I mean .(in overall sounds).

Again ,Design wise (buttons sharing dual function)is not perfect ,but then again I'm reffering to overall sound.(sorry if I offend g70 or T2 fans)(I like their workstation sounds anyway).



[This message has been edited by jamman (edited 10-20-2007).]

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#112164 - 10/19/07 11:53 PM Re: Psr 3000, Roland E50 face to face
jamman Offline
Member

Registered: 08/24/04
Posts: 620
Loc: City of Angels in the golden s...
-

[This message has been edited by jamman (edited 10-19-2007).]

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#112165 - 10/20/07 12:21 AM Re: Psr 3000, Roland E50 face to face
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10592
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by jamman:
One thing you don't get is Ian,ALL Korg arrangers have their PRO workstion sound board with EXACT same editing power unlike BOTH Yamaha and Roland(not to mention full blown sequencer with same memory,sample editing feature on a arranger). PSR s900 is nowhere close to Motif XS (It doesn't use the same board)(may have SA sounds which are great).Roland G 70/E80 is nowhere close to latest Fantom series.KORG however uses TRITON/Triton Extreme board in PA800 (minus Combi mode and less EFX)but the sound engine and editing is the SAME.
]


Well, Jamman, one thing I do "get" is that the Korg's arrangers, like the Rolands and Yamahas, have easy play chording and auto accompaniment which firmly ensconces them in home keyboard land in spite of whatever sound engine they use.

The rest of your post is informative, but still doesn't change my view.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#112166 - 10/20/07 12:34 AM Re: Psr 3000, Roland E50 face to face
jamman Offline
Member

Registered: 08/24/04
Posts: 620
Loc: City of Angels in the golden s...
Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
Well, Jamman, one thing I do "get" is that the Korg's arrangers, like the Rolands and Yamahas, have easy play chording and auto accompaniment which firmly ensconces them in home keyboard land in spite of whatever sound engine they use.

The rest of your post is informative, but still doesn't change my view.

Ian






It's Ok to keep your view.I'm a Yamaha fan in OS , navigation and some sounds + ease of use wise in their arrangers.

But I would take PA2x PRO anyday over JV80/SY22(entry level synth with no auto accomp) even if some ignorant people insist that Jv80/SY22 is more PRO because there's no drum machine built in.

Noway.I know what I can do with a PRO arranger with true PRO sound board.

Peace to all arranger lovers.




[This message has been edited by jamman (edited 10-20-2007).]

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#112167 - 10/20/07 08:31 AM Re: Psr 3000, Roland E50 face to face
Uncle Dave Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 11088
Loc: Philadelphia Pa, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by cgiles:
With all due respect, Dave, Why?


Chas, Thanx for the respect - right back at cha ! No one here is qualified to "tell" the others what is pro and what is home. The manufacturers market a unit based on research that suggests a target demographic.....the consumer buys it as such, and uses it as he/she pleases. Ian's remarks are opinion only, and he is well entitled to them. I just feel that when someone speaks out so strongly as if their opinion was fact, then others need to supply point/counterpoint ... just to keep it honest and upright.
I believe that the home market is larger than the pro market, but I also believe that several manufacturers are making pro level keyboards with simple, easy play features as well. I own one.
_________________________
Everyone, and everything I listen to is my teacher. Every instrument, every voice, every sound in nature ... they are all my private tutor ... 24/7 for free.

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