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#112148 - 10/18/07 03:02 PM Re: Psr 3000, Roland E50 face to face
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10592
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Diki,

If you want to believe the G70 is a "pro" keyboard, that's okay buddy...you believe whatever the Roland marketers tell you.

But deep down, you know I'm right...the G70 is a home keyboard that Roland are trying to market as a pro instrument, and failing miserably.

The G1000 was no different, and once people caught on that it was regarded as a home keyboard, there was no way they were being fooled into buying another one...hence the slow sales for the G70.

The Tyros2 is successful because it doesn't pretend to be anything but a terrific home keyboard...even the name "Tyros" means "hobbyist"

The S900 is successful for the same reason.

Roland really shot themselves in the foot with their marketing jargon...all it did was confuse the buyer.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#112149 - 10/19/07 02:31 AM Re: Psr 3000, Roland E50 face to face
adimatis Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1154
Loc: Oradea, RO
so, since we're here...

what is really a "pro" instrument?
in my native language "professional" mean more or less something to be used for making a living. something like a profession. occupation. making a living.

the issue is old, but we tend much too easy to call something pro or not accordingly to our own perspective; is it "pro" only if a studio guy use it? or a stage guy? what is it really? if i use a psr to record a simple piano line in a studio, togheter with other players from the band, does it become pro? on the other hand, the amount of controls, filters, sounds, LFOs, is to decide if something is or ist a "pro"?

this is more of a rhetorical question anyway. but really...

and getting back to the subject, what works best for you is better. if you make money out of it, i call you professional. if you have oasys at home and only play for fun...?
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Yamaha S770, Studio One 3, EMU 0404USB, ESI, ATH, Dell. And others.

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#112150 - 10/19/07 02:57 AM Re: Psr 3000, Roland E50 face to face
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10592
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Yep...remember the Casio VL-1...better known as the VL Tone?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casio_VL-1

Calculator or pro instrument?

Neither the E-50 or 3k have calculator functions...too bad...you could add up your tips, or work out your monthly payments.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#112151 - 10/19/07 03:41 AM Re: Psr 3000, Roland E50 face to face
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 5645
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Quote:
Originally posted by adimatis:
so, since we're here...

what is really a "pro" instrument?
in my native language "professional" mean more or less something to be used for making a living. something like a profession. occupation. making a living.

the issue is old, but we tend much too easy to call something pro or not accordingly to our own perspective; is it "pro" only if a studio guy use it? or a stage guy? what is it really? if i use a psr to record a simple piano line in a studio, togheter with other players from the band, does it become pro? on the other hand, the amount of controls, filters, sounds, LFOs, is to decide if something is or ist a "pro"?

this is more of a rhetorical question anyway. but really...

and getting back to the subject, what works best for you is better. if you make money out of it, i call you professional. if you have oasys at home and only play for fun...?


Making a living with an instrument doesn't make it "professional"; it makes YOU professional.

I think there is some crossover of meanings between PROFESSIONAL and COMMERCIAL. In that sense, "build quality" MUST factor into it. The equipment used by a PROFESSIONAL lawn service company is not the Sears or Wal-Mart special you'll find in your neighbors garage. You COULD make a living with it but you won't see many professionals using it because it's not "commercial grade". Will it (Sears/Wal-Mart) do as good a job cutting your lawn? Well, yeah, FOR AWHILE. But there must be a reason that "pro's" don't use them, just as there is a reason that most professional musicians don't (or won't) use arranger keyboards. Look at the Tonight show band, or Letterman's, or MTV, or 99% of every live music venue, and see if you can spot an arranger. Check all the music mags and see how many arrangers (if you can find one advertised) are endorced by professional artists. That should be a clue.

Ian is right, of course. And although you'll get the expected rebuttals from (what else) a group of hard-core arranger enthusiast who, of course, want to see their instrument of choice "be all that it can be", the proof is right in front of our eyes should we choose to embrace it.

Does the fact that they (arrangers) are clearly targeted at and marketed to, home users, in any way diminish them as legitimate musical instruments? Well, apparently so, at least in the eyes of professionals who have made it to the "next level".

So, does this mean that this "home user" instrument can't have "commercial" build quality? NO.

Does it mean that it can't employ the same (or greater) technology as it's "pro" brothers? NO.

Does it mean that it can't have the same level of complexity, flexibility, or even playability, as it's "pro" brethren? NO.

So then why can't it be considered "pro"? I don't know. Maybe it's like the difference between art and porn; it's hard to explain but you recognize it when you see it. JMO.

chas
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"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#112152 - 10/19/07 04:35 AM Re: Psr 3000, Roland E50 face to face
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 5645
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Oh, and another thing. As Ian and others have pointed out many times, if it has auto-accompaniment and you can play it with one finger, then it's mission is clear; to make you sound a lot better than you really are. That sweet music that your audience hears is not really you playing, it's you triggering. If you tell yourself that you're using SMF's or MP3's so you can "free up your hands to play in full piano mode" then you're wasting an awful lot of money. Why lug around a 40lb keyboard to play mp3's when you could do the same with a 2 oz. mp3 player.

I know that some members have difficulty accepting the fact that an arranger, when used in it's primary role, may not be what is usually thought of as a "pure" musical instrument, in that it is similar to pieceing together a bunch of loops to form a song. None of the loops were performed by you, but by musicians of (usually) greater skill. True, there is some artistry in putting them together in a musically pleasing way, but ultimately, how good it is depends a lot on how good the original loops are.

Organs were originally developed to (cheaply) simulate an orchestra (ha), but you STILL had to PLAY the darn things. Perhaps someday arrangers will reach a level of complexity and difficulty that those who are able to master them will indeed share the same status level as organist'.

BTW, this argument will never reach a conclusion.

chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#112153 - 10/19/07 04:59 AM Re: Psr 3000, Roland E50 face to face
Uncle Dave Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 11100
Loc: Philadelphia Pa, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by adimatis:
so, since we're here...
what is really a "pro" instrument?


Well, my pa800 has the words "professional arranger" right on the box. That's good enough for me.
If tools that make work easier negate their professional roots, then roofers would not use auto hammer guns, cars would all have manual transmissions, and Rachael Ray would not own a microwave.
Come on - let's get off the home vs. pro talks. Use it if it does the job for you. In the hnads of a pro, the tool becomes secondary. In the hands of an amatuer, the tool can make a huge difference in improving the sound. Either way - the listening audience is the winner.

If I never turned on the arranger section of my PA800, I would still use it on stage with any musical ensemble in any pro venue. It's that good.
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Everyone, and everything I listen to is my teacher. Every instrument, every voice, every sound in nature ... they are all my private tutor ... 24/7 for free.

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#112154 - 10/19/07 05:27 AM Re: Psr 3000, Roland E50 face to face
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10592
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Dave:
Well, my pa800 has the words "professional arranger" right on the box. That's good enough for me.
talks.
...I would still use it on stage with any musical ensemble in any pro venue. It's that good.


So the Korg marketers got you too...but, if you want to believe the PA-800 is a "pro" keyboard, I wouldn't poke fun at you, even though it is quite obvious it is a home keyboard with "easy play" features and auto-accompaniment.

I like playing my S900 home keyboard at pro gigs as well...

Think of it, if you like, as a librarian with a G-string under the tweed.

I do, and it helps.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#112155 - 10/19/07 05:35 AM Re: Psr 3000, Roland E50 face to face
ChicoBrasil Offline
Member

Registered: 06/09/01
Posts: 993
Loc: Belo Horizonte,Minas Gerais,Br...
Quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Dave:
Well, my pa800 has the words "professional arranger" right on the box. That's good enough for me.
If tools that make work easier negate their professional roots, then roofers would not use auto hammer guns, cars would all have manual transmissions, and Rachael Ray would not own a microwave.
Come on - let's get off the home vs. pro talks. Use it if it does the job for you. In the hnads of a pro, the tool becomes secondary. In the hands of an amatuer, the tool can make a huge difference in improving the sound. Either way - the listening audience is the winner.

If I never turned on the arranger section of my PA800, I would still use it on stage with any musical ensemble in any pro venue. It's that good.


DITTO UD
A cheap arranger played by a "good" professional can sound as interesting as a "profi" kbd.
Chico

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#112156 - 10/19/07 05:36 AM Re: Psr 3000, Roland E50 face to face
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 5645
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Dave:

Come on - let's get off the home vs. pro talks.


With all due respect, Dave, Why? Perhaps some of us are interested in hearing other people's point of view on the subject. It's like saying, "Ok, I have made the final pronouncement on this subject which we all know is gospel and therefore no other points of view need be entertained----so sit down and shut up".

I think these threads will (and should be allowed to) die a natural death, although we know from history that they will be resurrected in about 30 days. They'll probably even involve the same ol' combatants, but if it amuses them and remains civil, what's the harm. It's still a (semi) democracy here, right?

chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#112157 - 10/19/07 10:41 AM Re: Psr 3000, Roland E50 face to face
adimatis Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1154
Loc: Oradea, RO
even though i have some medical training, i wouldnt like to "artificialy maintain" a dying subject! still...

1. having auto accompaniment (even one finger triggered) feature does not necessarily means i am not able to really play an instrument - it just means that i have an "orchestra" playing along. as good an instrumentist i am, still i couldnt play drums, bass, guitar, flute, piano, accordion... and tambourine, all in the same time so, i have the auto-accomp.

2. using someone's else work in my music (styles) is not much different than what "professionals" do by using loops, phrases, midi sequences, etc. in their studio work...

3. at some degree, i believe it is more about marketing and appearences... i see no real reason why "big guys" wouldn t use g70 for instance, as a piano. good sound (not worse than xp80 for sure) and very good keybed. so, why not?

4. what korg put on their pa arrangers for instance, the "professional" label, i think is real. it is triton/rx. so, why an arranger couldnt be pro? and more or less the same can be said about any TOTL arrangers.

5. i also believe it has to do with the beginnings. casios with auto accomp for home musicians, but synths for studios. today, sound-wise or feature-wise this is sooo not true.

so, are you professionals guys?
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Yamaha S770, Studio One 3, EMU 0404USB, ESI, ATH, Dell. And others.

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