I am sorry to bother everyone asking for advice which is only tangentially related to the arranger keyboards, but I hope to be able to draw on the experience of the many knowledgeable professionals here.

I am still shopping for unpowered speakers, to work with my powered mixer. Here is my question: My amplifier is rated at 275W per channel into 4 Ohm, which, by my calculations translates to about 180W into 8 Ohm. I would like to find speakers which are matched to my amplifier not only in terms of tonal response, but also in power handling. Yet, speaker specifications often mention different rating numbers, e.g. one manufacturer (TOA) specifies Continuous pink noise (band limited) 80 W, Continuous Program Power of 240 W. Other manufacturers, (Yamaha) specify Program and Peak power rating of 300 and 600 W respectively.

Could you please tell me which numbers I should look at in order to have a good match between my amplifier and speakers?

Thank you,
Alex

Regarding Speaker handling power. I have been involved in speaker manufacture most of my working life. So may I give a little input to your question.
Firstly Speaker damage is caused in 90% of cases by an amplifier being overdriven into clipping. This is caused by overdriving an underpowered amplifier and also using excessive Tone Bass & Treble boost. It is better to have a larger wattage amplifier and use it with reasonable care than to have just adequate power used at a high volume.
As an example if you had a speaker with a power handling of 100 watts, it could be destroyed by an 20 watt amplifier being overdriven.
A larger 200 watt amplifier will drive a 100 watt speaker cleanly and with less possibility of damage if used sensibly.

Hope this is of help to you. Graham UK

Alex,
to prevent damage to the speakers you should check not only the peak power and the continuous power a loudspeaker can tolerate but also its frequency response. If your amplifier can deliver 275 W from 20 to 20KHz, then your speaker should be able to cope with that, especially at the lower end of the curve; a speaker that handles that power only from - say- 80 Hz up is useless (I speak out of a painful personal experience).

Graham in UK

Your opinion please on the best way to achieve the highest fidelity in an sound reproduction system for a good keyboard. I play alot of times in small places where it is mainly jazz and everyone is listening - sound quality is quite important. I play through Barbetta 31C - a pair of powered speakers - supposedly good quality - but my home stereo has better fidelity when I play through that system - as do my cheap headphoes. Do you think stuff like the Mackie SRM450's or Yamaha MSP10's are the best way to go for high quality?

Mike H

Alex

Go to Carvin's site at
http://www.carvin.com/speakers/
And ask for their (free) cat.
After you have read their cat.,
you just might get enough info to make a choice thats correct for you.
Also look at- http://www.epanorama.net/documents/audio/amplifier_power.html

Or go to the google search engine, type in something like 'speaker power ratings' you should be able to 'fill your boots' with info.
I'm from the 'old school' and like to have everything in 'RMS' power ratings. Then I figure I have a better chance to make the correct choice when comparing.
Gord

[This message has been edited by Gord (edited 01-07-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Gord (edited 01-07-2002).]

Mike,
The Barbetta's are a great value, but not so HIGH fidelity. The horn is harsh, and short ranged, and the woofers are boxy sounding. The Mackie 450's are the best all around sound I've heard, but they are pretty awkward to transport. I replaced my 450's with a pair of EVsxa100's and they are doing great for me......but - (there's always a but..)the horns are pretty hissy. Even with NO signal present, there is a hissssssss. In live situations - you may never notice, but that makes themn rather Medium fidelity in my book. In the plus column, they are light, well balanced, and sound pretty impressive when pushed.
There are lots of higher end stuff you can buy, but they start to get pricy. The Mackies are about $1300-1500 per pair, and will do any jazz gig around here. They also make a kick-butt sub, but it's over $900 and weighs a hundred lbs !

Whoooops - I just noticed, you asked for NON powered speakers. The Mackies come in a non powered version, but they are 8 ohms..... better get 4! They aren't much lighter than the powered ones though.

U-Dave

Pretty appropriate comments on the Barbetta stuff - I've had dealers tell me that the quality is all over the board with those - and the best ones sound fine - but - mine don't and when my 8$ headphones make my FP3 sound like a wonderful instrument you got to wonder why. I am leaning to Mackie and DanO has by far the best price on them I've heard - about 625 apiece. I'd also considered their powered monitors for even better fidelity and lighter - but they could get marred up alot easier. Some folks talk the Yamaha MSP10's, and some like the KRK stuff - but I am 1400 miles from the nearest guitar center!! and Alaska is always out of the loop for getting to listen to new stuff. I do think I need a pair to do justice to whatever high end arranger i end up with after NAMM - single speaker sound is just not a good option for me. As to arranger choice - I await the GEM Genysys release this month (hopefully at NAMM) and will go with them if the sounds are improved and they keep relatively the same functional layout - if not I am tossed between the KN6500 and the SD1 - even though ironically enough I think the web demos for those are weaker than the psr2000 or Roland EM55. It is nice to have choices and! enough money saved up.

regards
MH

Mike,
The Mackie powered studio monitors are NOT a good choice for road use. They are not built to take travel well, and honestly, I bet you'd overdrive them in a live performance.
If you can handle the weight - the 450's are soooooooo sweet and have the best horn displacement I've heard in a portable.
If you only need small to moderate volume - try the Yamaha pc speakers that George Kaye sells (I forget the model) I have a pair, and my FP3 sounds amazing through them! Tiny sattelites, and a small subwoofer put out 80watts, and sound great!
As to the kn6500 vs SD1 real - my money would go for the 6500 because the os is more complete. I still believe that the SD1 needs some factory tweaking !
Have you even tried the 9000pro? It's my top fav for an all in one these days. Great mic processor, incredible piano & organs and the best effects section on the planet - 12 dedicated dsp's. Awesome.
Hard drive, lights, xlr mic in ....... sweet.

Thank you all for your valuable advice.

Alex

U-Dave
So what is the model of those Yamaha's?? - I think you said they were PC speakers?? As to arrangers- the 9000pro is on the heavy side - although I can find them for under 2400 now - and it looks like the KN6500 can be had for cheaper than that. I like some of the percussion stuff on the SD1 - and I think all 3 of those have optimal fill and variation ability. Also - my one reservation about the kn6500 is that it doesn't seem to have a direct video out.

Mike up North

YST-MS50. They sell for about a hundred bucks, and really compliment the FP3.

Yeah, a lady came up to me the other night and mentioned the hiss, and I just told her not to sit up so close to the amp, unless she wanted to be struck by a snake. Seriously though, the hiss is only noticeable if you are up real close to the amp in a quiet room. I'm just curious how other powered amps compare in hiss volume level: Mackie 450's, JBLs, Rolands, Peaveys, etc. I still like my EVsx100's though because they do sound terrific and are MUCH easier to transport than the Mackie 450's. - Scott

ScottYee - Happy New Year

Are you happy with the fidelity of those EV units?? I have been quoted a very low price on the SRM450's - by a dealer in Alaska no less - so I am considering those - although he wants me to seriously consider the Peavey 1012 powered unit. Also Yorkville E160P.

Also on another topic Scott - what is your impression of the 9000pro (available for 2430.00 right now) stacked against the KN6500. BTW will sure be looking forward to your GEM report from NAMM.

all the best -
Mike up North

HI: Scott
The Yamaha MS400 powered speakers don't have
any hiss from the horn or any place else for
that matter, unless you got the mixer volume
turned way up & pushing them hard, then if
your not playing there is a little hiss, but
not to bad.
I don't know if the other powered speakers
work the same as the MS400's or not, but with
the MS400's I turn the volume all the way up
on the speakers & regulate the volume with
the mixer.
I know the FBT powered speakers that I had
didn't work that way if you turned the volume
way up on them they had alot of hiss.
Enjoying the 9000 PRO
Denny

Mike:
Yes, I'm very happy with the audio fidelity & performance of the EvSxa100's. In fact, though I'm very impressed with the Mackie 450's sound, I tend to agree with Donny Pesce (sorry Uncle Dave) that the Mackie 450's sound a tad bit hyped for my music taste (especially for intimate exposed bass drums piano, vocals stuff lounge material). My only complaint about the EV SxA100's is the hiss heard when up close when the room is quiet. It's apparently built into the internal amp system because it doesn't change in volume even if the audio input cords are removed. For high quality pro souding live 'one man band' gig performance where portablility is important, the EVs fit the bill. If portability wasn't an issue, I'd obviously opt for the Mackie 450s.

For at home studio playing/recording, I prefer going thru my Genelec 1029A Near field Monitors w/ 1091A sub woofer. http://www.genelec.com/products/1029a/1029a.htm
They produce the most accurate sound but you need to stay in close proximity to the speakers (sweet zone) to obtain optimum sound.

Re: Yamaha 9000pro - Yeah, I was drooling over this board at NAMM last year. The only problem (for me) is its' weight and awkward size. If they would have moved the pitch bend controler from the left side to above the keys in order to shorten the length of the board, I probably would have purchased it. Though the PSR2000 doesn't have all the features of the 9000pro (hard drive, multiple registration banks, MFC10 foot controller pedal support, and a few additional sounds including a terrific 'live' piano sample), I'm still VERY happy with the PSR2000, because it has almost all other features/sounds of the 9000pro, but in a MUCH smaller/lighter package (24 lbs vs 49 lbs) and is less than 1/2 the price. Btw, ALL the 9000pro's styles are readily available for FREE on the internet for download into the PSR2000. They sound the same on both the 9000 & 2000. If price is not a consideration and you don't plan to move it very often, then the 9000pro would probably be the best choice. As far as GEM's new keyboard offering, we have yet to see. So far I'm a little skeptical, but we could all be in for a surprise at NAMM. Mike, if trad jazz (as you have noted in the past) is your fav playing style and you want more chord voicing recognition (including rootless) & playing style options, then GEM may not be the way to go. But who knows, we could be in for a surprise there too. I'll keep you posted. Re: Technics KN6500. I still think that Technics has the BEST chord recognition (full keyboard mode) for a jazz keyboard player. Even the Yamaha & Ketron-Solton SD1 cannot come close to Technics excellent chord recognition when playing in 'full keyboard' mode. In fact I've decided NOT to sell my KN5000 (yet) because I really need this when I REALLY want to 'get down' and play in a jazz piano style with both hands over the entire keyboard, while successfully triggering the correct accompaniment harmonies. If traditional jazz style keyboard (piano) playing is your thing, I think I would recommend the Technics KN6500, even though I think Technics has an over inflated pricing structure (at least here in the US). I'm keeping my eyes on Technics next model (KN7000) which may not arrive till the end of the year. Until then, I'm continuing to enjoy the Yamaha PSR2000.

Denny: the Yamaha MS400s are definitely another great sounding 'no hiss' amp. Great to hear they're working out for you. I just didn't consider them because they weigh the about the same as the Mackie 450s (53 lbs).

- Scott

Hey Donny: I just noticed that your original posting comment on this thread re: the Mackie 450's sound have been deleted ! I hope it wasn't Uncle Dave's comment that convinced you to remove it

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 01-09-2002).]

Scott,

I deleted my post because maybe I didnt explain properly what I meant about the Mackie 450's being harsh. When I used them they sounded great overall fo larger venues. But when I was in a smaller situation, dinner restaurant, house party etc. where I needed a lighter but more Robust sound (like I get at low levels with the Sona 32's), I found them to be a bit too much especially the highs due to the wide horn. They do "KICK" at high volume, but you need to keep them on stands (verticle) to avoid Overheating and Amp Thermal Cuttoff when laying down in a Monitor position in hot sun or blazing stage lights.This happened to me a few times and was very embarrassing during a peformance on stage. Portability and Stacking is difficult due to their odd design shape also. They do weigh 23.2kg (51 lbs.) versus the Barbetta Sona 32's at 43lbs.
http://www.barbetta.com/Live/Sona_32/sona_32.html

In the end its what you like and what You think sounds good to your ears as a performer.

Donny NJ

PS: Uncle Dave is and will always be a GOD to me!!!




[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 01-09-2002).]

Donny - my post didn't make sense with your's gone, so I bagged it! Now you have to ax the Asian Buffet reply, or people will think you're nuts !
See ya Friday nite ???

Scott - thanks for taking time to reply

I appreciate your comments on the EV's and Mackies - was also interested to read the post from the fella using Barbettas - though I have the 31 and not the 32 he does. I note the Ev's are only about 8 lbs. lighter than the Mackies - what do they cost - I can buy the Mackie 450's up here for 580 each. I do realize that perfection for all conditions is unrealistic so I might stick with the Barbies for the time being.

I do want to buy an arranger in the next 2 weeks. If chord recognition and sounds on the GEM are not great I will hold off there. If so - I have decided against the Technics 6500 - its 2495 at Sound Center in Mississippi - but where do I go for service in Alaska? - and dealing with Technics and Matsushita has been appalling for me - just trying to get dealer info. I believe that I will end up with an SD1 unless U-Dave convinces me that I can lift 49 pounds of psr9000pro as I get older. I must admit - I like the drum sounds on the SD1 better - but I like the strings and horns better on the 9000.

But I'll make a wager here - if the Genesys is ready - it will support full chord recognition options, it will have a fine sequencer, simple layout, straight forward ops, it will be vastly improved in the sound department, it will have full cross platform style conversion, video out, hard drive, and easy toggling between midi-playback and full on live arranger function, and perhaps the performance pads of the KN series.

Okay - a small wager -
regards
MH

I realize that it's only an 8 lb difference per speaker, but it's not just the weight that seems to makes the difference, but the weight balance distribution and shape of the amp itself that makes the EVSxA100's so MUCH easier to transport. Zzounds.com has them for $499 each. You might be able to find an even lower price.