http://www.purgatorycreek.com/index.html

The new PA800 and the T2's pianos are compared on the New Entries page (along with MotifXS), and some other arrangers' pianos can be found on their manufacturer's pages (G70 is the FantomX Ultimate Grand patch).

Apples to apples....

Try downloading a few of the files and listen to them randomly (without knowing which is which). Give your prejudices a rest, and actually just use your EARS for a change....

You'd be surprised by what your ears and not your arrangers logo tell you...

T2 Warm - WOW

after listening to that AcustiX Boesendorfer sample, which imo blows away everything else on the page, by a huge margin (btw can I get that into my E60?) it's harder to compare the t2 and pa800..but after listening closely to the 2 pa800 and 3 T2 samples, I'd have to say the T2 has an advantage, if only because in accomp arranger play the brighter-edge usually is desirable to cut through, and there still is a fullness to the T2 sounds. The pa800 has a very pretty sound, on the mellower side. If it was just for solo piano, would be more just a matter of taste, neither is obviously superior. both are really nice as arrangers go.

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Miami Mo

I really can't say I like one over the other...they both have their strengths...the Yamaha being brighter and more animated(or as Diki says, "phasey")and the Korg a bit more static but still full and rich.

Each would serve a different purpose...the Yamaha more for pop and jazz, whilst the Korg would be more suitable for classical.

Ian

Warm? What part of that did you think was warm?

It's a great sound, don't get me wrong, but warm? The PA800 sounds a LOT warmer. IMO.

But you want REALLY warm... Try the FantomX Ultimate Grand patch. Listen carefully during the quieter passages. Warm enough to toast marshmallows on!

BTW, I don't love this sound BECAUSE it's in my G70. I love my G70 BECAUSE this piano is in it!

We all have a different idea of the perfect piano sound, but warm has always been my main criteria in choosing them. As nice as Yamaha's are (probably the best choice for most R&R and pop stuff, perhaps), warm is the last thing I'd call them, and so far, have not managed to pull the trigger and get a Yamaha keyboard primarily because of how bright (or brittle, in less flattering terms) the pianos are.

At the moment, for brighter pianos, I go with my K2500 w/daughter card piano, but warm... G70 every time.

Remember, all this is just OPINION. But I LOVE Purgatory Creek, as direct A/B comparisons can be made in seconds... Play the T2 Warm straight after the FantomX Ultimate Grand, THEN tell me how warm it sounds!

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 09-04-2007).]

Whilst the Fantom X Ultimate Grand is very nice and fairly warm (and a bit dry)it is, like the Korg, probably more suited to classical than pop, jazz or R&B.

BTW, I was under the impression that this comparison was between the Tyros2 and the Pa-800...not an opportunity to extol the virtues of one's own keyboard.

Why not stick to the topic?

Ian

Actually, Purgatory Creek is all about comparing ALL pianos... The PA800 and T2 are up on their respective maker's pages too, along with Roland and Kurzweil.

It isn't (as you might have noticed) REALLY a shootout between T2 and PA800...! They just happen to be on the same 'New Entries' page for now (along with several others), but will get bumped soon enough. So comment on ANY piano seems appropriate, especially with the fact that you can immediately go to the relevant demo and actually LISTEN for yourselves.

BTW, I use the same piano in the G70 for pretty much everything other than Honky-Tonk. You only have to adjust the velocity curve and add a bit of low-cut high-boost EQ to get something that cuts just as well (or at least, close enough for jazz, as they say!) as the Yamahas.

And once again I repeat, these comments are just OPINION... not facts. Just like yours, Ian.

At least (for once!) everybody can go and listen for themselves, and make their OWN mind up...

Sorry Diki...perhaps the topic's title was what misled me.

Ian

I'd like to see if others agree with me re the AcustiX Boesendorfer..and if anyone can help me get that sound (or one like it) into my E60. thanks

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Miami Mo

http://www.vanbarel.com/acustix/

It's a software piano, Mo. You really want to go down that path? Laptops, audio interfaces, MIDI interfaces, latency and streaming issues?

You can't get ANYTHING into your E60. No sampler, no SRX slot, no nothing... (like most arrangers in that price range).

But if you ARE willing to do the laptop thing, go back to P.Creek, check the software Pianos page... PLENTY of killer piano sets there. Ivory is a favorite of mine. Steinway, Yamaha and Bosendorfer, all in one package (that will run standalone if you want).

But, unless you are a computer whiz, you are going to need to get someone to make it into a turnkey system for you, and that usually costs extra...

Without starting a riot as usual....this is my favorite Piano.


http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.aspx?ObjectId=666&ParentId=87

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 09-04-2007).]

Diki,

I didn't say it was warm, did I? I said I liked the T2 Warm Piano sample. I like its brilliance vs the other warmer patches. But I like Yamaha period and I will never be ashamed to say it - so ban me!

For me Truepianos is the best I've ever heard. Take a listen. What do you think?
http://truepianos.com/demos.php

It'd be nice if Purgatory Creek were done with this.

I posted True Piano some time ago, but got little response, however I have uploaded it again for you to have a listen. http://download.yousendit.com/B32E812B05D9A0A0

Bill

Ban you for what? No-one should be ashamed of ANY of these pianos, or their arranger. Maybe we all just need to take a step back, take a deep breath, then go back to talking about arrangers and the like as if it wasn't a bloody religion, OK?

Actually you DIDN'T say "I like its brilliance vs the other warmer patches". You just said "T2 Warm - WOW!". If that's what you MEANT, maybe you could have posted that... I thought you were saying you liked the Warm Piano, for being as described. My bad. Ban me, too!

The thing is, all the T2 pianos demoed there are the same piano sample set. The 'warm' in the title just implies that perhaps a little EQ or filter is taming the sound, a little bit (not much, IMO!), but the fact is, if the piano sampled is a bright one (as Yamaha's tend to be) and it is recorded with mikes that emphasize that (as it seems to me), there really isn't much you can do to make it into a warm piano.

Same with making a warm piano into a really bright one (but again IMO, it's easier than making a bright one warm).

But let's all stop acting like their mommas just got dissed, just because someone is critical of a piano sound. It's called criticism, it's one of the reasons we're here, to talk about the pros and cons of arrangers. If the thought of someone not agreeing with you is painful, well, you got two solutions. Either post another, different critique (I'm not going to get indignant if you & Ian don't think the G70's piano is best!), or don't post at all. But no-one's calling your sister a ho', it just piano talk, OK?

Maybe you could contact them and ask them to upload it...?

Diki,

I think I'd best find myself a Yamaha forum to join........besides, my intention is to learn as much possible about their arrangers, not any others. I don't need to listen to piano shootouts to know that Yamaha is the very best. They didn't get to be as big as they are by making inferior products. Lightweight, plastic, etc? - I'd say one Yamaha engineer has more brains than all of us together.

HMMM.I THINK I'LL STAY WITH THE NICE MODIFICATION I MADE TO THE "CLASSIC PIANO" SOUND ON THE E60, THANKS. (but i did enjoy listening to that sample--even though others here seem to already have their favorites, and have not listened to the AcustiX Boesendorfer sound to offer a comparative opinion. I guess it's too much effort when you've already made up your mind, right fellas?

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Miami Mo

No need to be a computer guru at all . Just get a Receptor. Works great with your arranger also. I use the Steinway mostly. But I control it from a Maudio Prokeys88. The Bosendorfer and Steinways are part of EWQL libraries.

Muse will install the libraries for you when you order one, if you ask for it.

Danny

Exactly, zuki. I go to roland-arranger for model specific information, help and contact with Roland R&D. But it doesn't stop me from coming here to hear about all the other arrangers (you never know where you are going to get a good idea from!), and it doesn't stop me from admitting there MIGHT be something useful in another brand of arranger.

So MAYBE I don't have the BEST arranger on the planet. Or maybe I'm just not completely close-minded. Pick whichever makes you feel better about your arranger...

"I don't need to listen to piano shootouts to know that Yamaha is the very best". That sounds an awful lot more like religion than anything else. "I don't need to know anything about Christ to know that Allah is the best".... Look where THAT attitude has gotten us.

But have fun at the Yamaha madras, zuki...

Don't you think it's a little too much to use that word for a fellow member like Zuki?I believe we all are adults here.I don't find that kind of words effective or funny or whatever one's intentions are.

You can love your G70,Fran can love his G1000,zuki can love his PSR or T2, UD can love his PA800, right ?



[This message has been edited by jamman (edited 09-04-2007).]

All those samples sound good 'in their own way', each perhaps best suitable for different scenarios, but I gotta be honest: my 'Steinway B Grand" sounds superior to them all!

Scott

[img]http://members.tripod.com/scottyee/Misc/SYee's_SteinwayB.jpg[/img]

What on earth gave you that impression?

Good grief, I got to explain everything I post? zuki gets all wound up at the thought of ANYTHING other than his Yamaha being the best. I was simply pointing out to him all we were talking about was piano sounds, NOT his sister. (Is English your main language?).

Try a re-read after you have had a cup of tea...

just what does it take for everyone to just stop promoting everything they have already decided is the best without listening and considering what others may find their best? how do you LEARN anything that way? this is the THIRD TIME on this thread i have asked for opinions on the AcustiX Boesendorfer sound i played on the link that starts this thread. this sample just blew me away..but i have listened to the TruePiano that was offered here. (and didn't find it quite as good) I guess I'll just start a new thread saying the sound i heard is the best, and then everyone will want to jump in and argue (most of them without having listened to the sample of course)

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Miami Mo

Fran, there were 2 roland rd700sx samples, both of them very nice-i preferred the superior to the ultimate. but not even close the the Acustix Boesendorfer sample. to my ears, that stands so alone that we may as well just put that out of our minds as unattainable..and compare the samples from the various hardware keyboards available to us. the "natural piano" on the E60 that roland chose as the go-to on the shortcut "piano" button is a lemon. i was fortunate to have found a tweak to the classic piano that has a good piano sound, but unfortunately now i can't use the "piano" button shortcut because they chose the "natural" for it. with all the fine piano sounds Roland has created, I can't figure why they chose the one they did for the E60, which as a 76 should be biased toward a more piano-oriented player (not that i qualify as that)

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Miami Mo

I wonder why ?!? ...
t.

Scott you called me a lucky guy for owning the G70 and T2. Now who's that that's lucky?

My preference in the following order
Roland
Pa800
T2. I have downloaded Gary Diamonds tweaked piano sometime ago. I use that on the T2

Since I own a Clavinova CVP 307, I also threw that into the mix I listened to. Despite the Grand 2 being my favorite when playing the Clav, the sample doesn't sound nearly as good when played at the Clav. But on the mp3 demo I preferred the Roland to the Clav.



[This message has been edited by Stephenm52 (edited 09-04-2007).]

Which is why the great PIANISTS play different brands ... Aside from the endorsement dollars, it's what sounds best to THEM !!! ... no different from arrangers ....
t.

Scott - must be nice to wake up to that beauty

DANNY, WHAT'S A RECEPTOR?

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Miami Mo

http://museresearch.com/

Hi Miami Mo
To my ears the AcustiX Boesendorfer sounds more Steinway then Boesendorfer, I prefer the Boesendorfer in the NI Akoustic Piano VST, http://www.native-instruments.com/index.php?id=akoustikpiano as to Steinway I still think the Grand 2 from Steinberg comes top. http://www.steinberg.net/151_1.html
It must be said though that the Ivory VST http://www.synthogy.com/index.html tends to be the prevalent standard in the professional world.
However as has been said before, it is purely personal opinion, so buy whichever suits you.
Enjoy whatever you play

Bill

Bill, thanks for replying..I liked all the samples you suggested, the Ivory more than the Acoustik (couldn't find how to play the Steinberg, however) i then went back to play the AcoustiX Boesen and here's the problem, i think..that sample is somewhat louder and w/fuller-sounding eq..so maybe that is what is influencing me.. but it still blows me away like none of the others do. I find all the others guys have suggested excellent..i find that one superb.

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Miami Mo

Only problem is figuring out how to conveniently get it to gigs :

As a Tyros2 owner I have to agree the Fantom to me sounds great as a refined piano sound and I also prefer the more mellow tone of the PA800 in the way it's presented. I agree with
Diki's assessment of the Ty2's default by comparison- brittle etc. In the mp3 you can hear a harsh background metallic ring accompanying it - [which you can also get to hear playing the voice on the Ty2 itself darn it!]
Outside of the extremes, trying to get into too much detail with comparisons of default voices can be pretty fruitless IMO.
eg.if someone says yours is too bright or muddier, or is less expressive than mine I can change that by editing. But when I start to get too smug he can go away and presumably do similar edits on his KB so where does that get us.
What voices ever do sound their best out of the box I wonder?

I made a customised piano based on the T2 Grand designed to take away some of that brashness, give a mellower and more delicate feel when playing plus many other detailed edits. You can listen to it at the link below.I used the Purgatory Creek (PCrk) midi to play the Ty2 as a slave KB so I could set my own registration in place and have the voice played.
Same bit rate as Purgatory Creek's original mp3 for the Ty2 standard grand, which I've included in the zip for direct comparison.
http://tinyurl.com/3belk9

There's no intention to rate it with the top piano sounds, the point I'd make is it's also valid to form opinions about a KB based on the editability of the voices not just how the defaults sound.

Here's hoping the difference comes across!

John

[This message has been edited by jwyvern (edited 09-05-2007).]

I preferred the Tyros2's piano before you edited it.

I like a bright clean sound...your edited version is nice but seems to have lost some of the dynamics that make the original sound appealing to me.

Just my opinion.

Ian

My goal, when I sit down at a keyboard, and punch up it's best piano sound, is to get the illusion I am actually sitting in front of a real piano (key-feel aside!).

I have played many of the world's finest pianos, Steinways, Bosendorfer's, Kawai's and, yes, many, many Yamaha's. But I have NEVER sat in front of a piano, and got that cold, brittle, darn near tack piano sound out of ANY of them, Yamaha's included.

Sure, you pound the living bejesus out of ANY of them, you can get something like that, but the minute you back off, get into mf and downwards country, all of a sudden the sound warms up, you hear the wood and the soundboard, and the sound goes quite mellow, and expressive. But still close.

The Yamaha arranger (and WSs, IMO) never achieve that warmth as you play softer. They just, to me, start to sound more distant, but still bright. It's as if, to get quieter, someone just pulled the piano back 20 feet or so

But they NEVER give me the illusion of sitting at a real piano unless you are pounding them. There IS a recording at P.Creek of a REAL piano playing the same piece. Listen to it's tone as it plays the softer passages, then go and listen to the sampled pianos... Night and day, in most non-software pianos, IMO.

Once again, all my opinion, yada, yada, yada.

Playing a digital piano will always be a compromise once you played(or grew up playing) the real deal.

Ian

Certainly, Ian.

But how MUCH compromise you can handle is what is important. Some can't handle hardly ANY (the Clavinova, P250 and RD700SX crowd), some can handle a modest amount (G70, PA800), some can handle a lot more (T2, PSR's, etc.)...

All, once again, just my (yada, yada,yada).

That's OK Ian. I haven't thrown the original away.
While the preset seems fine to me as an all round piano sound for an arranger - fitness for purpose and all that - if you like to play full KB occasionally, and not all Fats Waller or Pub style it gets a bit much and not as satisfying as it could be IMO. In looking for a way to get a bit more strength with "refinement", expressiveness through touch, & stereo presence - at least as I saw it at the time - it seems I obscured some of the bits that you like.



John

Good one Diki...glad to see you haven't lost your sense of humor...unfortunately, you have the last two in the wrong order...it should be T2, PSR's, and then G70, PA800.

How you could have made such an error is beyond me..perhaps your yada needs adjustment...

You can relax...I've already forgiven you.

Ian

John, I'm not sure how you did that edit, and I'm also a little unfamiliar with how much editing you CAN do to T2's, but can I suggest a change in what you did?

To my ears, it basically sounded like either EQ or a filter cutoff change had been applied to the entire patch (forgive me if I'm wrong). This, although it warms up the sound a bit at lower velocities, had the effect of robbing all the highs when it WAS played hard...

Now, if you did this with EQ, there's probably not much you can do, unless to create a two or three way velocity x-switched patch that removes the high cut as you play harder. But if you did this by winding down the filter cutoff, you MIGHT try increasing the patch's velocity to filter cutoff setting, so as you play harder, the filter opens up a bit more, and gives you back the sparkle at high velocities.

Could you give this a try?

Actually, Ian, if you DO allow the RD700SX to come in first (along with the Clavinovas), the piano sound in the G70 is basically the same one. I just put it in second in the forlorn hope that you might actually take the post seriously.

Fat chance... Actually, I'm amazed you are prepared to let the PSR come in second to ANYTHING. It must have been a typo.

You are so easily amazed...must be that yada again.

You're gonna have to get it checked out.

Question. Perhaps all your yada problems began is a result of the strain of carrying that wonderful old G70?

Something to ponder....

Ian

http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.aspx?ObjectId=666&ParentId=87


Ive been watching all these Roland piano videos & Ive also played this KB in stores in the area.....for a portable its very hard to beat.

Weight is 54 lbs.(and one ounce!)

It's good to see an ex-PSR guy calling this 'portable'! I KNEW that Ketron would help you develop those muscles!

Now, all we need to do is get Ian off of life support, and address his myasthenia gravis, and who knows? But maybe the osteoporosis in his fingers (got to be a reason why he plays such a light key-bed) would rule it out...

No... probably the dementia will kick in again anyway, and he'll just lay about mumbling 'PSR good, others BAD' over and over again like he does now!

54 lbs (+ one ounce) is one thing, but a 50+ lb keyboard + a 20+ lb case = 70+ lbs is quite another, especially if you're gigging 7 days a week, and often several times a day as DNJ is.

Scott

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 09-05-2007).]

Yea imagine if I was doing 3 a day like some people around here I'd have arms like HULK HOGAN I know one thing no tyros or psr could ever sound like that !

Diki

I did just that and it turns out it has been there for awhile. It's just as I looked for it alphabetically I couldn't find it.

It turns out it's 1st on the list called '4Front TruePianos'

I think it sounds terrific and along with its smaller size and quicker load time, I think if I were heavily into just the piano sound that this would be the one for me for live play.

To me the 4Front TruePianos - Diamond "Jazz" sounds the best.
http://purgatorycreek.com/




[This message has been edited by Scott Langholff (edited 10-13-2007).]

Been using the trial version of True Pianos on my Abacus for some time now and it is easy on CPU as well as using little Ram.
Once loaded in the host or standalone (A few seconds) all the piano sounds are available instantly. (Due to the techniques used in the program, no loading of sounds is required, they are just instantly playable)
Sound modelling is definitely the way of sounds for the future. (Bye Bye Giga, you were good in your day but now its time to plan your retirement)
Enjoy whatever you play

Bill

PS. I like the Diamond Classic voice best

one keyboard that has slipped under the radar here is the yamaha s90es, which samples the yamaha s700 piano as the source, even the motif 8 es owners were jealous, its arguably the BEST piano in an under $3000 ($2500US) price point, hell it probably beats other keyboards much mroe expensive...biggest drawback length and weight...