The question was posed 'best arrager with best piano voice'. Is there anybody who would like to take a crack at an opinion of who has the best band backing up their solo work. I'm not talking about you guys just using a few peices out of the rhythm section or making your own backing. What I would like to know is when you buy the darn thing, take it out of the box, plug it in, pick a rhythm and start playing like you would with a six or eight piece dance band. Think in terms like sitting in with Miller or Dorsey and transfer your mind to think in terms of sitting in with Yammie, Solton, Gem or Technics band or the like. As an old dance band tenor man when I buy a new arrager I want to sit in with the best band in the box (pun) that I can afford. What do you think and and why?

Grandpa Doug

This is quite an objective question and one that has been addressed quite a bit under various topics.
In my opinion, the most elaborate and realistic styles of the keyboards that I have heard are in the Ketrons. Technics are also quite good, though the Ketrons seem to sound more "live".
Yamahas are very useable, and more versatile as far as using one style for various songs. This is because they have always been LESS elaborate and more basic. Yamaha has shown signs of change in some of the recent offerings, including the PSR2000. Some of the styles in it, and in the CVPs, do approach those of the other companies.
Korg PA80 has some really great sounding styles, but are lacking in depth in many genres. I do a lot of Country/Western, in addition to other types, and the PA80 has a few excellent country styles. The PSR2000 has maybe 10 times as many useable C/W Styles. The opposite is true on Blues type styles. The 2000 (also 9000) has a few good ones, but not many.
I have yet to see any of the other brands that could touch Technics in the area of Big Band, Swing, Standards styles. They offer both variety and quality in these areas.
The only way to really tell which keyboard suits you best, is of course to sit down and spend several hours with each one. Not always possible, unfortunately, but that's what we SHOULD do.
DonM

Well said Don.
Only some comments:
If I want to make a litlle demonstration of my performance I go to Ketrons and Techs.
If I have a 5 hours gig,sure,I will go to Yamaha .
Chico www.compumusic.hpg.com.br

My vote is for KETRON . dano

When I first got my yamaha psr9000 ... I downloaded 1,000's of styles from yahoo styles forum for free... and loaded them into the hard-drive... Swing,Country,ect... and imported from other Brands korg,technics so they would play on psr keyboards.

So check the arranger out for easy of use, keyboard feel,vocalizer,sounds,ect... the styles you can import ... it makes it like a new keyboard ...

I imported the psr2000 and cvp209 and technics styles into keyboard ... I can stay current with whatever new styles comes out!

I agree with DONM, best thing is to sit down with these Babies and see which one TURNS YOU ON!

Right now, awaiting Genesys, 7000 and Tyros, this is my opinion:
PSR 9000 (PRO), has the best styles if you want modern rock, country, ballads and blues. If you play a lot of latin and middle Europian styles etc, Ketron SD1 is the winner. Technic's styles I find too pompous and soft, makes an excellent table (taffel) music machine. Roland has a ways to go for most styles, somewhat unfinished for my ears. Korg and GEM, I don't know.
Allright, I'm flat on the deck looking for cover....

Roy-Andrè
Yamaha fav

I was impressed by the styles on the Ketron/Solton X1,but after a year realizing they were to busy for my personal taste. They were the most demonstrative to date, also the SD1. I don't care for the Yamaha styles , I like some but most do not suit me. Strangely, I have noticed a difference in the converted styles from the PSR9000 and PSR2000, same name styles,but the 9000 are better[sounds like different voicing]].I also like the VA series[Roland] styles ,thanks in part to "scat"patches used in some of the styles.After all is said and done , it is still the G1000 with the best of all the other manufacturers styles converted to the Roland format.I don't sacrifice the ability to get around and still have what works for me..

....yawn....... that old 1000 talk again...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...............

Hmmm, your profile reads:

Music, Bible, food and good friends, KN1000,2000,3000,5000 and 6500

...Sounds like you have answered your own question with your track record. I think you are a Technics man no matter what WE say !
Why break the streak now?

Uncle Dave,

Other than my Tec. boards I have a Roland E 70, a Yamaha and a Casio board a digital piano, a number of sax and clarinets, an accordion and a whistle. Also a trumpet I can't play very well. As far as the keyboards go Ruthie suggested to get rid of some of this stuff a few months ago with rather a firm tone in her voice. My sons and two of the grand kids have some of the things now. I have the E 70, the Casio and two KN's left after I sold the rest. A KN1000 and a KN6500. My saxes and clarinets I never will sell. Dave I can understand why you think I'm a Technics man. I just listed the Kn's when I signed on to the Technics Arranger Keyboard Forum earlier this year because I thought it was for only these boards. Dave, who is WE when you say, ‘WE SAY’? I have read your opinion of what you think I am. It is very clear what you had to say. I will only say, I understand what you say when you say what I have said about what I said when I said what kind of boards I said I owned. All I have to say, it is my opinion a man can do a disservice to himself by becoming a man with a one tract mind. A Ford man. A Chevy man. A Yammie man. The Rolands is the best, man. Nothing like a KN, type of mind set man and all such closed mind types. The only thing I never will change my mind about is Ruthie. Her operating system runs good and I never had to upgrade her to this very day. Her layout is good and all the buttons are easy to reach. Never had to take her in for service and she sounds good. Also good solid construction and very durable.

I don’t know why I drift off the subject at hand. Oh yes! Seeking your opinions. I understand everybody likes what they own and each has their own reasons why. I tried to point out my type of background and what I am after in a keyboard. I was hoping some old dance band type of players like me who do not want to fiddle around with the board, but just play with what the manufactures put into it, if they would share their findings. If I could find a store that had all the boards lined up in a row so that a person could go from one to another and test drive them, life would be simple. If I could find most of the different boards within a hundred or two mile radius where I live, that also would do. I live in the Chicago land area. A very large city and suburban area of the country. We have four places that handle Technics. I found one that had a 9000 Pro. One with a 9000. One with a VA7 and the other day one had a PSR2000. These boards have been out for awhile but have just now come into these stores. Technology is going at a very fast pace today. What was great stuff last year somebody today leaves it in the dust. I ran across the PSR2000 the other day and tried it out. I couldn’t believe what I heard. Yamaha never had what suited my type of playing before. I almost bought it. The only thing that held me back was the fact a whole new genera of boards are on the horizon this fall. Thus my query about some of the brands I have not heard. The Ketrons for example. What DonM has evaluated about the styles being very realistic have whetted my appetite to the point of not going for one of the new boards this fall until I can find somebody with one so I can hear the styles. Styles that are alive is what turns me on. Don’s, evaluation is just the type of help I was looking for. Chicko and Dan01 reinforced a good evaluation. Great! Regtta’s comments also had merit and I understand what his thought is but as I said before, I am not interested in altering or adding to the board. I don’t have the time to do all this, run my business, play dances and restaurants and keep Ruthie happy. Just for the record I do not sing. If you don’t believe me just ask Ruthie. I have no intention of telling you Ruthie’s evaluation. Well, maybe I will. A lovesick frog.

Dave I know who and what I am. After all I have lived with myself quite a few years. The three of us are very fond of each other. Me, myself and I understand each other. We talk to each other often even if we don’t see eye to eye all the time. Sometimes I ask myself if I should do this or that. Me says to myself, why not? I agree, and my oh my I ask myself why did I ever made such a bad decision. Me says to myself, I wasn’t thinking! Dave I really would value your opinion on the question at hand as the rest of the musicians have thoughtfully offered. And can WE all say AMEN (So Be It)

Grandpa Doug

I pretty much concur with all of Don Mason's assessments. The Technics KN boards biggest strength is its Big Band & Jazz styles, and that it BEST recognizes in 'full keyboard mode', jazz piano (chord recognition) of any other arranger currently out there. The reason I love the Yamaha PSR2000 (as well as the 9000pro) is because it includes a good cross section of usable styles that compliment (yet don't outshine & compete with) my live' keyboard playing . Ketron's impressive SD1's styles 'knock me off my feet' with lots of punch, and are terrific for contemporary pop & rock, but seems a bit too 'in your face' for more traditional lounge jazz & older classic standards (my specialty), which require more rhythm section subtlety. I imported my favorite custom Technics lounge-jazz styles into my Yamaha PSR2000 so now feel like I have the 'perfect backup band'in a 'single' box. Will I remain satisfied with my PSR2000 or eventually add the Ketron XD9 or SD1, and/or the Technics KN7000/Yamaha Tyros? Only time will tell, but hey, for now, I still love making music & gigging on my PSR2000, and isn't THIS what's it's all about? - Scott

Scott,

Thanks for your candid appraisal. Ketron's styles seems to be the ones to definitely look into for adding to existing styles. In today's market one must be able to play pop and rock altho not my most favorite, I'm beginning to warm up to it. As far as I can gather from the very thoughtful and experienced guys here who have been through the mill, so to speak, the bottom line seems to be - Customize the board that you like most as your base. In other words start with the board you most like to operate and has the features and styles you most need and like and then add what is lacking. Guess I kind of knew it all along.

Ruthie has a habit of looking over my shoulder for a while when she passes by. This morning at the breakfast table she proceeded to set me straight. I read what you said yesterday about the best arranger being the best whatever. Baloney, she said. Your problem is you got the fever. Also a bad case of the itch. What in the name of heaven got under your skin this morning, I said between burps. Blotting the egg yolk off my chin I made some remark about her getting out on the wrong side of the bed or something this morning and belched, OK, lets have it, get it off your chest. Leave my chest out of it, you got the fever bad and the itch is driving you crazy. What are you talking about woman, I exploded. All them circulars and magazines about the new model cars coming out this fall. All the red marker pencils used up circling the horsepower and the new gadgets and stuff. Add to all that junk the time you spent the last week looking for poop sheets on all them new musical boards their going to try to sell you. Can’t get you to do anything around here when you get this way. Now Ruthie, be nice. It’s only every three years or so I get the fever. After all, I got to soothe the itch somehow. It’s only good sense to ask the guys in the know if I’m making the right choices. Experience is the best teacher they say. Might as well tap into some of it, It’s free!! It’s beyond me why men get this bug every so often. Just drives me up a wall, she added. Ruthie Ruthie I suggested shaking my head. Remember your moods you used to have every month? Life is life is life. Remember the porch, the swing, the times, the moments? Things will pass, were still here, you and me. Rising from the table and shaking the crumbs off. our eyes met, a soft smile slowly developed from her soft wrinkled lips and after a warm knowing embrace she done the dishes, went up stairs, made the bed and took the dirty clothes down to the basement. I shuffled over to the computer, booted up and am now thanking you all for your patience in helping me over this time in my life. Yes Scotty, as you so aptly put it - Isn’t this what it’s all about!!!

Grandpa Doug

Hi Douglas,

I know about your fever. I have it too waiting for the XD9/XD3 and the new Tyros.
Like Scott and you I used to be a huge Technics fan and switched to Yamaha a while back.
I think the important question here is: what do you want to do with it and what kind of music do you play.
As Don and Scott have already pointed out Ketron Styles are certainly more alive.

When Andrea came down to S. California we had 3 boards to try side by side: 9000Pro, X4 (X1) and KN6000.
When I played around with some of the Ketron X4 styles, everybody started to tap their foot. They were very alive, but as I have said before, not too many songs came to mind with the styles I played, even though I had a blast improvising.
I bought the 9000Pro because the styles fit a vast genere of music. Plus if you use vocals, you don't want to have the styles overpower your singing and do a solo gig.

The live drums on the 9000 are very good, as they are in most boards today.
I would really suggest you listen to the styles in each board for a while and think about the music you are playing.

The new Tyros promises more in your face styles. The styles in the new 2000 are already a vast improvement over the 9000 styles.

You can also add a XD3 module, which will give you acces to the Ketron styles (one of my considerations right now).

Since the new Genesys, the XD9 and the new Tyros are on the horizon, I would deffinately wait, since they promise to be a step up in sound technology. We'll see

Eric

Seems I can't say anything without someone misinterpreting it. (Scott Yee won't even talk to me any more. He thinks I've flipped my lid or something. Oh well...)
I was "lightly" suggesting that your profile showed you to be a One-Brand-Man. There was no mention of woodwinds or Rolands or anything else. Just MANY Technics models. Easy mistake.

I am a true fan of your writing style, and I will continue to read about the "adventures of Doug & Ruthie" with great anticipation, but I think I'll refrain from the advice column for a while. Things get too heated up too often, and I hate to be at the center of the debate on every issue.

Like you, I know who I am, and what my strengths are, so I will settle back into the dusty confines of my little "hectic" world of family, entertainment, and friends. I think too much time is wasted on these discussions anyway. It would be far more beneficial to drive to the nearest superstore and put your hands on all the items you are curious about. If more time was spent on the performance and less on the evaluations - we'd have better players all over.

The "One man Band" mentality has changed a lot in the past 15 years, and now that so many are attracted to it from other areas of music, there is a huge flood of keyboard owners, and only a tiny puddle of actual players. I've given advice and many secrets of my success for over three years without asking for a thing in return. If I seem to be bugging everyone with my "sometimes twisted" sense of wit - I apologize, but I cannot change what anyone thinks. My world has been one of full time music since 1969, and I have a lot to share. It's a shame that some people are trying to "read into" my words and are missing the point. That being : I love music, and I have a firm grasp on the business end of show biz, as well as the artistic end. I'd love to chit chat about the latest, greatest thing every day, but the fact remains ...... there is alot of real junk being sold today and a lot of really terrible players trying to make money in a business that they have NO business being in.

Now, before anyone gets bent outta shape about THAT comment - it has NOTHING to do with anyone specific. I'm generalizing about the overflow of "wanna-be" singers and DJ's that are buying a keyboard or computer and calling themselves an entertainer. I have many, many long hours of talent, sweat and heart invested in my craft and I will not let it be torn apart by the onslaught of amatures that have been "lured" into the spotlight at Karaoke nights and the like.
I guess I should only discuss these feelings with other pros, because I'm sure the large population of home users will, most likely take offense to that statement too. I'm sorry, but in an open forum .... this is what you get. Sometimes you like it, sometimes you don't. Life is all about tough choices.

I'm going to clear my head of all the babble and hit the beach for a week. Maybe when I get back things will be the way they used to be. The trouble with these discussion pages is that you have too much time to prepare your rebuttals. It's nothing like a real conversation where the parties interact and play off each others remarks. That's why so much is taken OUT of context. I think most comments are intended to be amusing as well as helpful. At least, I know I try to do that, but if feelings are getting hurt along the way, then a change must be made.
I will be the one to start the healing. I am closing my lips on the subject of subjectivity for the time being.
You will like what you like.
I like Baby Back Ribs.
Maybe I'll do that tonight.
Ta Ta all.

There's a seafood buffet where I'm working. And I get it free. Hope they have crawfish!
Have fun Dave. Have fun Ruthie. And your husband too.
DonM

Uncle Dave!
I enjoy your sense of humor and insight ... and I think most do too!
I think we all need to step back and enjoy the beach or Cruise,every now and then, like Bebop just did!


You are an Entertainer, even on THIS BOARD!

The Board needs your Sense of Humor and Calling a Spade a Spade! And you are quick to admit you might have misunderstood something ... and clarify the subject. And people are from different parts of the World ... THIS forum is a WHOLE world forum on Arrangers, and we are all diferent ages and cultures ...so some misunderstanding is to be expected, at times.


rgtaa

Uncle Dave, your vacation must be long overdue...BTW, who's babysitting your PA80 this year?

Uncle Dave,

I've enjoyed reading your posts and have learned a good bit in the process. After many years of dedication to it, I consider myself to be a pretty accompished keyboard player, albeit one who still feels the need to practice so that I can continue to improve and hone my skills. Still, I am certainly a neophyte on the entertainment end of it, and I have gotten a lot of good things from reading you and other seasoned entertainers at this forum.

We have agreed on many things and disagreed on a few things too along the way, but every bit of it has been worthwhile to me. I think you should remain as you are. For myself, I wouldn;t want it any other way.

To the original topic at hand...

I have 2 distinctly different needs and preferences for evaluating styles for my uses. I have to judge certain manufacturers based on conversions because I've never owned or played their boards extensively.

The first need is for live play. For live performances I want simple styles that blend in and don't overpower my own performance. In this setting Yamaha styles work very well because of their simplicity. The PA80 allows me to replace the internal styles withs styles of my own choice. In my live setup, mine still has probably a little over half of the original Korg styles. Many were replaced because I found them to be a bit too busy for me. Most of the imported styles are from Yamaha boards, with a sprinkling of G1000 and Technics styles thrown in ( I like some of the jazz styles from Technics ). There are no Solton styles at all in the live setup. ( I find that they are also a little busy )

I have an completely different styles setup for home and studio use. I simply change the whole thing via disks. ( styles and performances as well as user voices and one touch settings ) In this setup, there are more of the original Korg styles. They sound very alive to me and I enjoy jamming to them and using them as a base or scratch pad for my own songs. In this package there are also several Solton ( ketron ) styles ( also very alive sounding to me ), a few Yamaha styles, a couple from Roland, one from the Casio MZ2000, and no Technics or styles at all. There are also a few hybrids that include pieces from different manufacturers and / or grooves that I played in real time and drums that were born in Jammer Pro software.
What I like about styles for live play is almost the exact opposite of what I like for home and studio use. I lose interest quickly with a lot of the Yamaha and Technics styles, and to a lesser extent the Roland's as well. I also agree with Don though that the latest Yamaha styles ( CVP209 and PSR2000 ) do have a little more flavor and a few from those boards made it into my studio setup.

It's going with me. Remember, I have to work both weekends on either side of our vacation. Only the girls get the WHOLE week off. I'll have Monday to Friday , but next weekend is the "Night in Venice" in Ocean City - just like Mardi Gras, only on the water. This is one of my biggest jobs each year, second only to New years Eve.... and only by a little. This is a big deal, and it gets bigger each year. The house I play at is 3 doors down from Bobby Clark's house (FLYERS), and he always has a gang of party animals there. The houses along the bay are all decorated, and get judged for theme and presentation, as well as the boats that parade along the bay coast. This year the themes are all Patriotic - our house is doing "United We Stand". I've never seen a better party atmosphere - hundreds of casual boaters tie up in groups and anchor right along the parade route and party all night long. People are dressed in elaborate costumes, many boats have their own live bands on board playing for dancing and drinking. LOTs of drinking. I tell ya - it's just like Mardi Gras only with boats.
So ...... you'll have to go to Sam Ash if you want to "Korg" around .... GC doesn't have any around here. Cherry Hill has the PA80, VA76, PSR9k, 2k, 1k .... and I think they might even have an MZ2000 (oooh )Control yourself.

This time off will do me good - I need to get my objectivity in alignment. This summer has thrown me quite a few curves that have me second guessing alot of things.
First - the Pledge of Alegience is challanged by a bunch of idiots
Second - my 40 yr old cousin dies
Third - well....you don't wanna know third.

I will enjoy the time alone with my girls, and if I get real lucky, Chris(my eldest son) will show up with his main squeeze (the yummy Michelle) and I'll have all 4 kids under one roof again. Seems like a long time ago that they were all here at the same time.

This year we have two extra teens tagging along as well, so I'll be the only male in a house full of 6 women ! AAAAAGH ! I hope Chris makes it down ... I need to even the odds a bit. Too much Estrogen is a bad thing, and who will help me make sure all the toilet seats are always in the locked and upright position for takeoff ????

The girls leave Saturday morning, and I'll meet up with them late Sunday night after my job is over. So .... Ciao, Bambinos !

HI: Uncle Dave
Have a good time this week, I hope your Son can make it down,
to give you a little help with all them Girls, but if not I'm sure you
will handle it OK.
Have a great time UD.
You Da Man
Denny

Dave, if I'd only known sooner . . .
I would have sent you a couple of my boys to help entertain your girls.
Don

Uncle Dave,

I know from the girls thing. We talked about this before. I have my wife, my stepdaughter, and my stepdaughetrs two girls under the same roof. The only other male in the house is our Shih Tzu, and even he has to deal with our other dog, a female Chow Chow, who is literally about 10 times his size.

My stepson is home for a few weeks visiting from Japan.. ( finally another male in the house, even if only temporarily ). Of course, he brought his daughter with him so we are sorely outnumbered..lol

Hope you get to enjoy the vacation and don;t work too hard.

Ciao,

AJ