A while ago, someone here posted the song "Brown Sugar", played on an Casio WK 3000/3500.

Since I have the midi file, which was made by Roland if I am correct, I downloaded HyperCanvas and used is to replay the song.

I was able to do a side by side comparison of sorts, playing it against the mp3 by Casio.

HyperCanvas seems to have "crisper" sounds (claims 26 MB samples linear equiv), although not that far better in quality compared to the Casio.

Casio seemed to have better, more "beefy" bass, but the leads used, were weaker. Also, Casio seemed to have a lot more reverb and also the line noise was noticeable.

I suspect the GM/GS midi, played straight through the Casio doesn't do it very much justice, since individual instrument levels are different and should be changer accordingly.

Anyway the HyperCanvas seems to have better sound overall.

I tried some other midis, also made by Roland, "Careless whisper" comes to mind... It was almost identical to the "real" version, until the sax line came in which was not enough.

Are there better GM softsynths around?

Hi Trident,
the only other gm software type synth that I've come across are soundfonts.
Most of the commercial midifiles I've collected over the years were created for roland gm/gs instruments.
I usually noticed they played back better on a roland sound source than they did on my korg/technic etc unless I tweaked them.

If you do find another GM soft synth, could you let me know too.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by trident:
[B]

I tend to go to "specialty" modules, sample sets, or soft synths for each particular group of sounds. For example I like Edirol's Super Quartet and Eve for piano sounds and acoustic guitars, Sonic Implants soundfonts and / or my Motif ES6 for Acoustic Drums and Electric guitars ( with amplitube as my virtual and real time electric guitar effects box ), RGC Pentagon, Pro 53, CSV80 and Moog Modular for analog synth sounds, VB1 for electric bass etc etc. The point being, other than the convenience factor, I don't care that much for using any one synth ( soft or hardware ) for all sounds. There just isn't any "all in one" solution that really seems to do it for me. I realize that what I do wouldn't work so well for someone who wants to play midifiles, unless of course you are willing to open the midifile in a vst host and then reassign specific parts to different modules ( A ton of work .. I know ).

There are a few decent GM softsynths out there, but I think some of the higher end soundfonts might sound better to me overall. Luxonix Ravity is pretty good, maybe overall better than Hyper Canvas. Plugsound makes a GM module, but I've never tried it. IK / Sonic Reality makes a higher end one as well ( Omni Synth ), but I haven't tried that one either, and I've seen mixed reviews from one end of the spectrum to the other.

You might want to research this more at KVR Audio. I'm sure there are some threads in their forums regarding GM synth modules,, and many modules are rated there and are available as demos to try out.


AJ


[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 12-15-2004).]

Rikki,
AJ answered us both in one post, talk about efficiency. Thanks AJ.

I tried a demo version of Plugsound, they call it plugsound free, and it has a limited subset of the original sounds. They claim things like 6-8 MB for piano and copious amouns of memory for the other instruments as well, but I wasn't very pleased comparing to HyperCanvas. Going to try again though.

I am only playing at home AJ, so I am in no particular need for different sample sets to get the best of everything. A good GM GS, (wish that XG softsynth didn't have that lag), will probably suffice.

Going to search this KVR site soon
Thanks again, Theodore.

What about the subjective quality of soft synths? Are they generally better than the hardware ones?

trident, it depends on which softsynths you plan on using. Softsynths like Kontakt, GigaStudio, Halion, etc. are many orders of magnitude superior to any hardware based (keyboards or modules) samplers on the market today. This also assumes you acquire very high quality virtual (sampled) accoustic instrumets (Bardstown Bosendorfer Piano, VSL Saxophones, Scarbee Base, etc. In addition, you also need to use very high quality effects (reverb, chorus, delay), for example, Pantheon Lexicon, Sonitus and others.

So if you get top of the line softsynth and assoiciated software you will greatly exceed any hardware based solutions. You can check this by listening to the various demos available on the internet, e.g., search Bardstown...., etc.

I hope this gives some useful information.

Hi Frank,
great to hear from you again.
Didn't want to get in too deep , just in case Trident asked me something I couldn't answer. It's been a while since I've had the time to even turn my computer on, so the brains getting a bit rusty again.

I tend think maybe a combination of the Hypercanvas and maybe some really good sound fonts for solo voices.
At least thats the way I hope to go in the long term.

The soft synths & xg piano will keep me busy for ages.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Frank L. Rosenthal:
[B]

Hi Trident,
meant to ask, did you mainly want it for midifiles?
I'm intending on using the Hypercanvas & some good quality soundfonts for my software based arranger setup( OMB ).

best wishes
Rikki



[This message has been edited by rikkisbears (edited 12-16-2004).]

Hi Rikki,
I have a 10 yr old Casio CTK-750. GM set, some nice solo sounds (for the money and time I bought it, you can't use them along with styles though) and 128 Styles.

My playing ability hasn't exactly surpassed it, but there are new toys in town that I am drooling over, you can say that I am bored with it.

I am not a musician, I just play at home for myself, usually try to learn songs that I like, always using built-in styles, never going to gig. Maybe once or twice a year, I will play along 1-2 guitars in a gathering at a friend's house, so the things that Frank describes in his (Thanks Frank!!) are more suited to a professional, than me.

So, after reading around here in the forum, it seems like OMB and a decent softsynth (HyperCanvas sounds are miles ahead of my current Casio) may do the job as needed, excet the "portability" thing.

The "new portable toy" alternative would be a Casio WK 3500, or a PSR2100/3000 if I starve some months, money is a little tight

I suspect I would need to buy OMB & Forte & HyperCanvas, can you describe what else do I need If I go the software route??

Thanks for reading my life's story, hope you have the time to help.

I agree with Frank about the sonic quality of high end sample sets vs hardware romplers / synths.

I can't argue against a PSR3000 Trident. I played one yesterday and it sounded pretty good to me. That said, I still probably will never own one. I still don't like the way the keys feel vs my Motif or PA80, but that's a personal choice and this topic has been the source of spirited debates here in the past. Not looking to do that again ( debate this ). It's just a personal preference.

I use the Yamaha syxg50 software xg module with OMB for starters. Most of the Yamaha styles play the "right" instruments in it. That said, to me, the sonic quality is fair. I wish Yamaha would release a better module for Windows XP/. I have the SYXG100, which I think is a step up in sound quality, but there is no support from Yamaha / Sondius for XP. Since I only haveXP, it's now useless to me.

Hyper Canvas sounds much better to me than the syxg50. I might tweak a little and add Super Quartet to the mix for pianos and guitars. Maybe the B4 for organs. Maybe a few nice samples in Kontakt as well. Etc..


OMB is portable for me since my primary music computer is a laptop. My laptop is by far the most powerful synth I've ever owned. There really is nowhere else for me to go with hardwre right now. The Motif ES, even with it's less than intuitive OS, still is easily my favorite choice vs any other rompler. Arrangers ? I like the Tyros a lot, and probably would like the PA1x`as well. I don't want to shell out that much cash for either. They are great arrangers, but at there pries too one dimensional for what I want and need. I love the Roland V synth too. Lots of cool and weird noises. I can do most of that with software though, at less than na tenth of the cost.

Sofware is my choice. I add and pay for what I want, and can leave out what I don't need.

The irony is, I had a nice discussion with the kb manager at my local store yesterday. He makes a living selling mostly hardware, but we were on the same page exactly with this.

AJ

Hi Trident,
first up, you possibly could use your Casio with omb.( I assume it has midi & sends & receives ?, I think I read somewhere about it being able to use only 4 channels at a time??) Anyway it would just allow you to try it out & see how you like working with a software based arranger.

If in the end you ended up with a psr keyboard of some sort( psr 2000, 3000) , OMB wouldn't be a waste of money either, as you could always use it as a psr style editor.

If you ended up with the WK3500, OMB could be used with it also as a realtime arranger with the WK as your sound source. 2 arrangers for the price of software & an arranger.
Another option might be a DGX ( I've recently bought a dgx305 ( does it's midi thru usb & works with windows xp only, I think)
The dgx 300 had normal midi in/out.
DGX305 thru usb. Only loads 1 style at a time thru a smart media card, and only has 2 variations, 1 intro/ending. But midied up to OMB you get the 4 variations , 3 intro/ending that the normal psr styles have. Only has 32 note polyphony though, so there may be some compromises, but it is xg lite so psr styles don't need as much tweaking & editing as a gm sound source does.
I've used omb to edit & cut down a couple of my 9000pro styles.
Haven't had a great deal of time to spend on mine yet.

As for Hypercanvas, the psr styles will require some tweaking and some editing. Hypercanvas is GM2. Psrs use additional sounds & drums that are over & above the gm set.
There are demo's available for Forte http://www.brainspawn.com/products/forte/?op=download

Hypercanvas http://www.edirol.com/products/info/hyperCanvas.html


OMB http://www.1manband.nl/omb.htm

Midi Yoke ( Virtual midi cable) http://www.midiox.com/index.htm?http://www.midiox.com/myoke.htm

I also needed an asio driver for my laptop,
I managed to get this one to work.
http://michael.tippach.bei.t-online.de/asio4all/

Actually Frank & AJ helped me with all this soft synth stuff. ( they're the experts )It was a fair bit of trial and error on my part , but I eventually got it working.

If you actually have an SB Live soundcard in your computer, Synergi soundfonts may be another option for you. Again the psr styles will need tweaking.

best wishes
Rikki
[QUOTE]Originally posted by trident:
[B]Hi Rikki,

Hi Rikki,
thanks for the comments. AJ, thanks also!

Yes, the Casio can transmit midi in all 16 channels, and sounds good enough in HyperCanvas. Also, it seems like OMB is a nice program to have, but they could make the demo last longer than 30 sec to give a better taste.

I have a tiny little problem though, anthough Casio sends all the accompaniments in MIDI OUT, for no apparent reason they have done something with the bass channel, and so it plays one octave higher than it should be.

Solving this one will please me immensely, to say the least. How can I change that? It cant be changed in the Casio itself, it has to be changed in the receiving end.

I am having a "noticeable" lag in HyperCanvas. forte says it is 10 ms, sounds more like pressing the same key in quick succession. I hope it can be reduced with changing the soundcard (currently a $6 CMI 8738 chipset), I'll get a SB live or something from a friend and test, and I'll report back my findings.
If you have any more ideas, please share.

Trident, latency (delay) of 10 ms shouldn't be that noticeable, nor should it sound like a double-strike of the key. Perhaps you are experiencing a MIDI "echo". This may be due to the manner in which you have your equipment connected via MIDI, and certain settings. You might try changing how you have "Local Control" set on the Casio, if it's adjustable on your model. Also, check whether your software is enabling "MIDI Thru", and if that can be controlled.

I hope that helps.

--Barry


[This message has been edited by quietDIN (edited 12-20-2004).]

Barry,
notes sound twice, but first from the keyboard itself, and then from the PC speakers (softsynth). (You can achieve the same thing as Local OFF by just turning the vol of the Casio all the way down, right?).
The closest description I can give, is that it sounds like a very fast echo, but from different sources.

I have heard midi echo from the casio before, using a PC sequencer, and the notes were so close together that they sounded like a phaser effect, or some times cancelling each other.

I can understand that there HAS to be a lag, but it seems it is longer than the 10 ms. It seems that the "reported" latency is 10 ms and the "actual" is more like 50 ms or longer, but DEFINITELY smaller than the internal PC synth lag.

It doesn't bother too much, but there IS a difference in the way the keyboard reacts. Certainly, it can't be recognised by a listener, but If someone with a little experience plays the instrument they will surely detect a "sluggishness" in the way it reacts, due to the latency. Sometimes feels like walking in the sand very close to the sea. You are walking fine, but something is wrong.

Anyway, your remarks about possible midi problems, have to be checked thouroughly before I say there is nothing wrong with them, but for now it just doesn't seem like a midi problem to me.

I have friends that own a "mom and pop" computer store, and I have earranged to borrow a SB live they have around, to see if things better. If yes, with about 70 €, É can buy an Audigy 2 ES or something from them which reports "Very low latency" in the specs.
Anyone with experience in that line of cards??

How Local OFF will affect things depends on the manner in which Casio implemented MIDI on the CTK-750. I've run across synths which don't have MIDI Thru jacks, but pass data received at MIDI-in on to MIDI-out, causing a MIDI "feedback loop" if the PC also has MIDI Thru enabled. Admittedly, in addition to "smearing" the sound, that also tends to cause stuck notes and other MIDI "hiccups". But it's easy enough to try turning Local off; see page E-66 of the CTK-750 manual if you aren't already aware of how to do that.

--Barry

Hi Trident,
the only thing that springs to mind would be to edit the basses in Hypercanvas either lower or raise them an octave and save them as a user set. Not sure if your casio can handle it though. It may require bank changes.

Fortunately with OMB I can usually find some sort of a solution to help fix up any problem I may encounter with the psr styles it uses.

Just out of interest have you tried using OMB as the arranger with your casio as the sound module.

I actually don't have latency problems. I have a fairly new, reasonably fast computer ( whether that makes any difference , I wouldn't know, I'm not terribly computer literate)

I plan on using Hypercanvas for the style parts mainly. I usually play piano as my main instrument voice so I use my clavinova piano voice for that, rather than Hypercanvas and I use "full keyboard mode" , rather than having a split.
Main reason for Hypercanvas is that I was forever upgraing keyboards, each time I had a lot of editing to do ( retweaking styles). Figured this way, if I do end up finding a better sound source down the track, I'd still have Hypercanvas, OMB & the styles for it, just need to tweak any new styles I may get for the new soundsource. I can always keep adding software, can't afford to have a collection of keyboards ( haa haa)

I was mainly asking in that if you happened to already have an sb live card in your computer, soundfonts ie synergi ( frank put me on to them) might be another option to look at, but don't dash out and get one just for that.

best wishes
Rikki


[QUOTE]Originally posted by trident:
[B]Hi Rikki,


[This message has been edited by rikkisbears (edited 12-20-2004).]

Barry,
thanks for the info, Local on or off doesn't make any difference in playing except hearing the casio of course.
I have been experimenting with forte settings and the reported latency is about 8 ms? now. Tried to lower the buffers, got awful noises instead of sound.
I think it feels better, I didn't have the time to test it though.

Rikki,
I have an "el cheapo" soundcard, and when i play with headphones, a noise is heard along with the sound, sounds like the hiss you get when putting meat on very hot surface. It stops a little after the actual instrument sound stops, so it is not the "usual noise" you get from equipment.
I'll install an SBsomething to see if that is related to the soundcard or the Hypercanvas samples. If that noise stops, keep heads low, I am going to throw the old card as far away as I can.
In an old Cakewalk I was using years ago, ver3 If I remember correctly, I was able to set a -12 semitone transpose in the channel that the bass was in so it sounded as it should be.
How I'm going to do this in HyperCanvas, god knows, but I;'ll try to get hands dirty, digging.

If you have any suggestions, they are welcome
Thanks you both for your time and effort.

trident, I have tested the Hyper Canvas on the Audigy Platinum, Audigy 2ZS Platinum and the professional Steinberg VSL2020 with no noticable noise - even at very high volume levels. The better samples usually do not suffer from such problems.

You should know that if your computer is of the general garden variety and not tweaked for music you may experience higher levels of noise and distortion.

You can use M. Bedesem's programs together with a sequencer such as Cakewalk to set the octave levels of any of the 16 channels in the style. You can also do this in most softsynths or in forte.

To work with softsynths and hosts requires some investment in time to understand how these things work but once you do you will never go back to hardware. I have done this for several years. Also good results will cost money to acquire high quality software (samples, synths, hosts, effects and so on). You get what you pay for.

[This message has been edited by Frank L. Rosenthal (edited 12-21-2004).]

Frank,
I totally agree, and my softsynth experience spans the incredible amount of 1-2 weeks.

The Pc is a Theodore-assembled Frankenstein, (used to work in a computer store for 6 years, so I haven't forgotten how to do it), and I am downloading everything I stumble on on the net, so it is not "clean".

Electrically it is not clean also, and I also believe this hiss problem is related to the soundcard , not the samples. I'll try 44.1 Khz instead of 48 Khz, to see if things will better.

What about the Audigy2 ZS? Is it worth the 70 EUROS for the bulk or 90 Euros for the retail????
Or a borrowed and never returned SB Live Value will do the trick?

trident, all the Creative soundcards are good (equal in quality to most keyboards or sound modules) but do not equal the performance of the so called professional soundcards, e.g., Echo, Fronteir, Steinberg, Ego Systems, etc. I mean higher quality with respect to things like signal to noise, distortion, dynamic range and so on.

I would pick the Audigy card if you can given that you can load a wavetable greater than 32mb. The alternative would be to use SBLive and a softsynth like LiveSynth Pro to load your soundfont wavetables which are greater than 32mb in size.

Hi Trident,
if you're planning on using a software sequencer, it should allow you to transpose.

You can definately edit the Hypercanvas sounds and save them ( I tried transposing one of the piano sounds).

I'm planning on converting the drum tracks of the psr styles that I use to gm drumsets.
Might make things easier in the long run than converting or leaving them as XG (my piano's have xg)

In Hypercanvas I can also edit the individual drum volumes plus some other stuff as well.

best wishes
Rikki

Installed a borrowed SB live last night (or maybe early todsay, It was about 1 in the morning.)

Forte Starts, but HyperCanvas doesn't
Going to check tonight if I can.