I went to an upscale restaurant recently. They have a separate bar with a piano. So, a piano bar, you could say. This poor guy played and sang well enough and I watched the crowd several times out of curiousity. Nobody ever looked his way or every acknowledged him in any way. Everyone is in there yacking away.

I know two guys who played that gig and lasted a few months until they couldn't stand it anymore. One guy told me how much it paid and it was incredible. A very nice salary with benefits.

I guess the owners figure it adds something or they wouldn't do it but geez.

I don't go to piano bars but the only lively one I've seen was in New Orleans at Pat O'Brians. But... people go there for that reason, to listen and sing along.

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Bill
Yamaha PSR2000

Where was it? Superior? I played one for years, except it as an "organ" bar. Always had good participation and response.
DonM

I have recently done some work at an upscale restaurant (keyboard only no singing). The owner mostly hired me for private parties in the function room of the facility. He has sold the resturant and his last night there he hired me to play in the lounge. He never had music in the lounge or the restaurant, just music for special events. When I arrived to set up at 5:30 the place was packed wall to wall people. Started playing at 6 and 95% of the people never looked my way. As the evening wore a few people did applaud. At the end of the evening those left really gave me a round of applause( maybe they were glad I stopped playing ) Bottom line the job payed very well so I went away happy.



[This message has been edited by Stephenm52 (edited 11-10-2006).]

Playing background music in upscale restaurants and lounges is a challenge. My experience is, people listen. They may not be as vocal as customers at other types of venues, but they are sometimes more knowledgable and just want to hear the music without additional "baggage".
you have to really watch the volume, minimize the "clinkers" and make sure the versions of tunes you play are not too "busy".

These are the places I work, and I'm happy to get the opportunities...

Russ

Maybe he wasn't "entertaining"..

Exactly. Did he play with any accompaniment? Was his music upbeat or slow? IMHO if you want to either be ignored or end the night then all you have to do is play three or more slow songs in a row. Even if people request nothing but slow stuff at a piano bar (they often do) you have to mix the songs/tempos to keep it lively and interesting. And having accompaniment so you can do some faster jazz trio swings makes all the difference.

I play a piano bar on Friday nights and inevitably somebody wants to hear "My Way" or something like it almost as soon as I start playing... I refuse. I tell them that I will play the slow stuff after I liven the place up a bit and they usually understand that.

There is a baby grand; they don't allow you to bring a keyboard. A real piano, haha. I also noted his volume was low. I'd bet they make him keep it low. I'd bet they just want it for the look and as background music. Ugh.

Actually... hmmm... I forgot to look for his sound system. He WAS singing into a mic but I don't recall if the piano was mic'd.


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Bill
Yamaha PSR2000

You don't have to have a keyboard for accompaniment... I use an MP3 player with my backing tracks when I play grand piano (actually my Music Pad Pro). It makes a lot of difference having a beat to go with the music, and you can still keep the volume low. My Friday night piano bar gig is at an upscale restaurant with an unamplified grand piano so I just use my MPP with my MS KP-100s amp... easy setup, great sound, too much fun!


[This message has been edited by Esh (edited 11-10-2006).]

My piano bar story:

Several years ago I was performing at an upscale steak house in downtown Dayton. The baby grand was in the center of the room, in a pit. I sat down the first time and began to play something and couldn't believe my ears...

The sound seemed to be muffled in a way I'd never heard before...

I'm talking seriously muffled...

I stop...and lift the lid of the piano and inside it are several pieces of lightweight felt. The manager approached me and said "Don't you take those out of there!"

I thought for a second what was really important to me...

I explained that I was here to entertain her guests by playing the piano, but that under these circumstances, I would not continue. I asked how why are they in there? She explained the previous piano guy needed them so his playing wasn't too loud. I told her I can either leave now or I remove the felt and you tell me if its too loud. She said if she got one complaint...I'd never work for her again.

I played all evening...made a bucket of tips...and at the end of the night, she thanked me for playing softly. (I hadn't really played all THAT soift I thought, either...)

She then said "...when so & so played, it was really, really loud and percussive. She said my playing was prettier..."

"so & so" turned out to be a kick-ass ragtime guy who could play circles around me.

I did the gig a few more times and moved on...

Bill in Dayton

My husband and I splurged on a week-long stay in a really posh hotel down in the south of England a couple of years ago. There was a really nice piano bar we sat in for drinks, with a beautiful baby grand sitting vacant every night. I asked the bar staff why no-one every played and he said the last guy recently quit and they haven't hired another player yet. I told him I was a piano player of sorts and he encouraged me to give it a go...

Anyway, I played some cover songs and a couple that I had written - the place was packed and almost everyone just carried on drinking and chatting as normal, completely ignoring me. I actually didn't mind because I'm not really a performer as such. However, there was one gentleman with his wife that heard my playing and came into the bar just to listen. He kept offering to buy me drinks if I continued to play. It was such a good feeling!

One of these days I'd love to get back out there and perform again...

Musical Wallpaper.

That's what you've described, and I've done my share of it. It's not a "crowd participation" deal, and it's usually on the calmer side, but the venue that features such entertainment is something that I, myself look for when I dine out with Donna. When you are with someone that you want to talk to, it's nice to have music in the background that doesn't command your attention. I actually love places that feature a musician who knows how to read the room and stay just where he needs to be, with respect to volume, tempo and "schmaltz".

I admire performers that take each request, and tactfully place them into the set in the "right" spot, so as to please the requester, and still maintain the control of the room's PULSE. I always felt that my primary job was to "work" the room .... whether that meant jokes, music or quiet ambiance – it’s all part of the job description, as I see it.

I’ve mentioned before that I am starting to lean in that “background” direction, and I have no regrets so far. The days of yelling, screaming, and playing mindless renditions of overplayed pop-dance numbers just wore thin on me. I love the newer, quieter me … and my audiences seem to appreciate it as well. There is a place for EVERYTHING you all do, and we will all change our routines from time to time. The important thing is to LIKE your own performance. If it looks like YOU like what you play, then the crowd will accept it more readily. Humility on stage is essential. Big shot, or not – we’re STILL there to please the people first.

It’s a thing of beauty and art, when the audience is pleased, and the performer is happy with their work.

Ahhhhhh, the life of an artist !


[This message has been edited by Uncle Dave (edited 11-11-2006).]

I've done dinner music for a live theater and that is a much more relaxing venue and a lot less pressure on a performer.
Reading the room is a must during the dinner time but during intermission anything goes. Even with quiet music during dinner some people would dance between the tables. Others seemed to pay no attention but I know that they must have enjoyed the music because they became steady customers.
Walt

The local office of a large brokerage firm has hired me to play a "customer appreciation dinner" at a fine restaurant. It will be kind of like a piano bar in that there will be no dancing and the music is "wallpaper" (Uncle Dave's term).

The dinner is to be held in a private room which has a small stage. The management of the restaurant had only one request. "Don't play so loud as to drown out the house band in the main room". I know the band playing there and there is a fat chance that would ever happen.

I prefer playing dances...but these corporate dinners are easy and the checks tend to be fat and always clear.

Eddie

Just curious Esh or anyone else-what kind of MP3 player do you use? I am looking for one that will stop after a song is played, has good sound quality, plays with no reliability issues and has a readable screen. Looking at this as an alternative to a laptop.

Thanks

That's EXACTLY what I'm looking for too.

I hope we don't get the usual "get an Ipod" replies because I want something more flexible and professional - and I think we all agree sound quality is paramount.

Just got in from a gig and read this post. I've scaled down from a larger group to solo, duo, and trio work with backing tracks on a computer. Yes, it's often background music, but the venues are generally good. Money splits better. Setups are quicker and things run smoother. I prefer the larger screen of the computer, but carry an iPod as backup with the same tunes on it. I worried about the "canned" effect of using tracks. However, not once has anyone made a negative comment about this issue. Most are amazed at how good it sounds. Employers seems to like getting more for their money and the small amount of space that's required for a "band". I can't believe I used to do this with cassette tapes. Anyone tried that?

It's we musicians that worry about these things? You think anyone else really does? I don't think so. As long as it sounds good that's all they're concerned about. How you make the music is not their business. I used to worry about these things too and can't say I have fully gotten over it.

Very few would have a problem with you using tracks. And even then you can never please everybody.

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Yamaha-Keyboard-Guide.com - Essential Yamaha Keyboard Reviews

"JUST DO IT "

t.

As long as everyone STAYS, that means they LIKE I say, take the pay and be happy!

zuki

Just make that check payable to... Fortunately, I only have to play a dozen or less of these jobs a year. For me, they're boring as hell, but the pay is exceptional, and more often than not there's a hefty tip that goes with the check. Yep, it's wallpaper music at its very best!

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

Piano bar gigs? .... paid practice with tips for me ...it's all cream ....complaining about "Playing Music" doesnt exsist in my world.....its a labor of Love FOR LIFE!!

Ditto. What a shame to get paid for doing what you love. I've played many a piano bar gig in my time and I've had great followings and I have a lot of happy memories. At this point in my career I don't have to do one on a regular basis, but they're still fun to do.

Rock on!

Joe

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Songman55
Joe Ayala

The Music Pad Pro is my music display and MP3 player. It's not perfect - the v4 software and the XMMS media player in particular for the Music Pad is buggy but managable. You can read my thread on Freehand's forum for details here .

But yes, I replaced a laptop on stage with the Music Pad Pro. I combined it with the Kawai ES4 piano (which I chose because it had an internal speaker system to plug my MPP's audio output into) to get this stage rig:





[This message has been edited by Esh (edited 11-12-2006).]

Kool good looking setup Jim.....would love to hear a few tunes with this combo.

Esh,

Thanks for the reply. I am using acoustic guitar, so the Music Pad would be overkill for me. I'll probably go the cheap (used) laptop route unless I can find an MP3 player that will play one song at a time and has good reliability.

Thanks

I'm still using Creative Labs Nomad Jukebox 3 for both recording and MP3 playback. It is no longer being made, but you can find them on Ebay fairly easily.
They will record and playback stereo WAV and all stages of MP3s. Mine have 7 gig hard drives.
DonM

Don,

I checked them out and they look like they might be great. Thanks!

I play piano bars almost every friday and saturday. I must say I really love it! The money is good, the tips are great, and the gigs are short! But not everyone is suited to play a piano bar. It's about entertaining, not playing or singing. You can be the worlds greatest pianist and singer, but that doesn't neccessarily make you a hit at a piano bar. It's about making the people laugh, sing and drink! If everyone is wasted at the end of the gig, humming and laughing you did a good job. The bar's register is full and your tip jar is filled to the rim. When you play a piano bar it is important to let people know that you are in charge. Shure they can make requests, but ultimately it's your choices that affects the evening. And if you don't put on a good show, well then you woun't get the attention of the crowd.

Doc-Z

Doc.....great post...sounds like you really have it all under control as an entertainer.

This piano bar is not like that. I don't care what the piano player is doing. He could be standing on his head, juggling, and playing; I honestly don't think they would notice. I think the owners make the volume be low and he's wallpaper and that is all. I base this on what I saw and what the other guys who quit told me.



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Bill
Yamaha PSR2000

Piano bar gigs can go to either extreme - from the never-seen-and-barely-heard variety to the lid-slamming stage antics of dueling pianos. I don't think we can pigeon-hole any one piano gig as an example of all piano gigs.

ALL of my gigs are "piano-bar" ("piano restaraunt" would be closer) but NONE of them are the wallpaper kind. I would consider my music to be "foreground music" - it's not background music since I mostly sit on a lighted stage with a dance floor like a band would. No vocals but people dance to my music - not loud enough to drown out conversation but loud enough to be heard throughout the building. This description fits fits all of the places I play, both regularly and occasionally. I would put them in the center of the extremes that piano gigs can go. I think the performer has some say in the kind of gig they wind up playing and the client has most of the say, but those are all negotiable.

Let me add one final thought:

I have a Friday night gig I currently do where the restaurant has a grand piano in the center of the dining room. I use my MP3 accompaniment and they have a dance floor at one end of the room. Generally the owners and the diners love me but there is quite often one customer or couple who are seated too close to the piano and want the music to be "turned down". The piano is not mic'd, the lid is closed and I don't pound on it, so I already play as low volume as I can within reason and my accompaniment is a comfortable matching volume. We had several debates about this and finally a confrontation - I told them to stop coming to me with "turn-down" requests altogether and start moving the clients to other seating or fire me. Negotiation was over. The owners backed off and now move the customers if they complain. They could have moved the piano or hired another pianist but the option they chose was to relocate complainers.

This created some tension at first but the fact is that I do draw people who want to enjoy my music and the compromise had to come from the client if they wanted me to play. If people don't like live music then they should come during the hours I don't play, and if you don't want to be wallpaper (or a door mat) then you don't have to be.

[This message has been edited by Esh (edited 11-13-2006).]

How do you get restaurant gigs?

I actually wouldn't mind being musical wallpaper, if it meant getting paid to play. I've never been to a single restaurant here in England with a live pianist - it just doesn't seem to be that common.

Do you think walking into a few local restaurants and introducing myself would do any good...maybe give them a demo CD?

I could easily setup my 88-key Fatar and PSR3000 if they don't have a piano available....hmmmmm....

Carrie ... I had played in a band in NY with the same guys for 26 years - started in high school ... When I moved to RI I was reluctant to play without my 'security blankets' ... when I finally decided to get back 'out there' I had some business cards made and went around to the local restaurants ... before I knew it an owner hired me, and I haven't looked back ... a 'demo' CD is fine, but make that personal contact ...
Good luck ...
t.

Great topic. Here's another angle with some candid comments. Piano had always strictly been a hobby with me, but I became frustrated just playing at home, especially after a number of people asking why don't you play gigs. Bottom line a bit of " stage fright" There was a time even playing in a crowded room of friends/coworkers had me break out in a sweat. On one occasion when I played piano while at a musician friend's house his wife had to eventually give me a small bath towel to dry off because I sweat so much, good thing I had a dry shirt in the car

Two years ago I got the stones (not the rolling stones either) to start booking gigs as tonymads stated a little earlier "JUST DO IT" My first gig I took a towel with me so that I could wipe the sweat off my brow just in case.

My first gig was background music. This gig was a wallpaper gig and I mean WALLPAPER. Assisted living home cocktail party. Folks lined up to get into the event room prior to the doors opening up. Once the doors opened all they wanted were the wine, cheese and snacks. They could have cared about the music.........that worked to my advantage, it was an ice breaker never did sweat, never had to use the towel again, although I do take it for hot summer days moving equipment.

I have regularly promoted myself as background music, although that's changed. Based on input here I'm working on the voice and at my nursing home gigs telling stories and doing some trivia about the music I play.

Wallpaper jobs can be a good thing for me, my day job requrires about 55 hours a week. Because of the nature of my work, people call me only when they have problems that need solving or to complain of a breakdown in equipment. So, playing a mellow piano gig with good pay helps me relax after the long work week. That's not to say that in the future I could and hope to shift direction a bit....Play On my friends.

[This message has been edited by Stephenm52 (edited 11-13-2006).]

Way to go, Steve...you'll do GREAT!

Russ

Thanks Russ appreciate your comment.

All the best to you.

Well.. I didn't always have it under control. It took some years of experience first. And I still get an occasional gig that seems hopeless on Friday, but on Saturday I turn it around.

Maybe it's a bit different in the US, than here in Europe. But most of the piano bars I've played here, be it Norway, Sweden, England, Spain or Germany, it's usually the same. The music differs from place to place, but the objective is always the same. Give the audience a good show, and they will respect you at the end of the night. Some crowds are tougher than others, and ultimately it is up to you to figure out how to get their attention. I've found that 7 times out of 10 I have to grab the attention as early as possible, or the crowd will drift off, start jacking away, turning around and the nail in the coffin: ask me to "Turn it down a notch or two". I'm not saying you should start off by pulling down your pants and moon the crowd to get attention, allthough some guys do that with great success.. That's not my thing. But find a way to make them listen to you, demand their respect, and get your act together and put on a good show. Chances are they will love you! But you have to feel out the crowd. Each audience require a different set of tunes, a different set of jokes, and a different mood. Remember that it's not too big of a deal to bomb a song or a joke, because you can always follow up with a better one. In theese types of gigs you are usually only as good as the last number you did.


Doc-Z

Doc....I hear ya.... I see too many Dead beat players out there with no personality who just look down at the music never make eye contact or ever talk to the audience all night looking like they hate being there & the audience knows it.......& as a result their TIP jar is Empty.............but that's OK, the more they do it ....the more work becomes available for the real Entertainers...

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 11-14-2006).]

Then, Donny, you would NOT want to come see me. On the other side of the coin, I see tons of "lightweights" masking a lack of ability by playing fluff tunes, singing poorly and generally embarrasing themselves. They're not a problem for me because they are all fighting with the others for those $75.00 jobs.

Two of the top venues here ban Jimmy Buffet music, for example. The owners don't like it, personally, believe it is not right for the image of their establishments and don't want "parrot heads" as customers.

Again, we're talking semantics. On the one hand, there are "fluff" entertainers who will do almost anything for recognition/audience response. On the other, there are serious players who have real trouble relating to audiences and working steady jobs. I suspect that most of us are somewhere in the middle. In my case, I place the emphasis on the material and find places that value that skill set. I wish I were more of an entertainer...I just don't have that skill set, so I have to compensate.

In the 70's, I worked with the highest paid entertainer in this area. The job paid $1000.00 a week. I got $250 and appreciated it. This fellow, Preston Weber, was a super entertainer who never rehearsed, didn't know anything but sing alongs, folk and country. But, man, as an entertainer, he earned every dollar he made. I played the first and third set as a single on keyboards and backed him on a variety of instruments during his shorter sets. He knocked em dead. He worked 1/2 the time and earned three times the money. I could never do what he did and didn't want to.

I guess I'll have to be content to be...


Russ (Dead Beat) Lay

Oh Well....

Russ....It would be my honor to watch you perform sometime if I'm in the area.....as a fellow Pro I look between the lines to find The "Entertainer" in acts that NoBody can see or hear from the outside....the word entertainer takes on many definitions .....but I'm sure you fall into the category nicely in your own way & style for sure....stay well & happy holiday to you & yours!!

Russ, Russ, Russ....as a fellow jazz player who has real difficulty even saying "short call for alcohol" (announcing the break), I understand your point.......understand it, not necessarily agree with it. I think the people that came to watch Miles play all night with his back to the audience WERE there to be entertained. Its just that they were entertained by the great music and the knowledge that they were in the presence of greatness.

The point is, it really is all about entertainment at some level. It's just that those of us who are blessed to be able to play jazz at a high level can entertain both ourselves AND the audience at the same time.

So in the end, the "entertainer" and the "jazz musician" are doing the same thing, entertaining. It's just that the "jazz musician" is entertaining a more refined, more enlightened, more sophisticated, less plastered, audience.



chas

Well put, Chas....you NAILED IT!


Russ

Well this little interchange has reminded me how far short my musical skills fall, and how much of a gap there is in "attitude" (still) with Jazz musos....

Do you guys even PLAY with arrangers?

Most around here just think Jazz music is a bunch of POTTED Up Drunken freaks jamming on stage aimlessly with no beginning or end...
although good jazz player are some of the best musicians in the business they never get the recognition they deserve....and that's sad.

Yes I know what you mean.

Interestingly enough, I started my musical life as a formally trained Jazz/Latin/Rock Drummer (at one of the best schools in Australia) and thought perhaps my life was going to be "the scene" and all that entailed.

I did play with a lot of Jazz players, and you're right, the best ones are fine open minded musicians - I just often found the Audiences, the hangers on, and the bad Jazz musos to be too elitist and (in a funny way) narrow minded.

I had to get out of that scene, and have now found myself a new philosphy.

As a writer (not a particularly good one!)and performer (I'm not going to use the "E" word again....) I try to bring "something worthwhile" to the masses - and all THAT means is honesty and taste in Writing/Performing - whilst not being "boring" or "introverted".

To put it better, I want to write and perform popular - "mass market" songs in the commercial world, that are also "great" works.

Maybe a good example would be the greatest of the Beatles songs, or U2 or ...take your pick - enormously popular material, yet with a depth (and innovation) that genuinely adds to the culture.

Well that's the dream anyway...lol....

I can only speak for myself, but yes, I play with arrangers every single day. I have a yammy and a korg and play the korg every day and yammy at least once a month . I didn't mean to come across as an elitist, either in musical taste or playing ability. Truth is, I would describe myself as, at best, a competent player; able to "make the gig" with other pro-level players. I realize that if I were any better than merely competent, more people would know me. My strengths are 1) knowing most of the tunes (in the correct key), 2) able to read the charts on the fly, 3)playing in a rather transparent style that fits easily with most jazz trio/quartet formats an 4) not hitting on the female singer (usually). Although I have owned (and enjoyed) a number of arranger keyboards and modules, including the g800, g1000, PA1x Pro, and Tyros2, I have never performed in public with one. That's because, aside from a few solo piano and solo "B3" gigs, I've never really done the OMB thing (can't sing, for one thing).

Again, sorry for coming across like a "jazz snob". I'm fully aware that many jazz and classical players do. In the end, it's the "soul" that counts, and I've got plenty of that.

Peace,

chas


[This message has been edited by cgiles (edited 11-14-2006).]

Hey I'm not saying that people don't appreciate good talent! I love to watch great players perform! And I'm there for the music, not the jokes. But as Chas said, not everyone has the ability to appreciate great talent. They only hear the music. They don't think about "how the heck is he pumping out those swinging 16ths?" or "Wow that guys got some hot licks!" The regular crowd over here usually get more out of me playing Jerry Lee Lewis type stuff, rather than George Gerswhin or Cole Porter. It's a shame, but that's the way it is. DnJ I too had a difficult time comming to terms with the entertainment part of my act. Because I'm not the kind of guy who pulls down his pants for a laugh. I don't even think that type of stuff is funny. Stuff like that is funny maybe one time, but the second time I find myself thinking "Oh man, here's that ass guy again...". But what I did was starting to talk in between numbers. While I'm fidling with patches or drum patterns. Introducing the songs, not like a DJ, but tell them stuff about the song, why I like it and stuff like that. After a while the comments got more and more funny, and I got a better response from the crowd. Now I usually have them in my hand the whole evening. The most important thing is to be true to yourself.

Doc-Z

I have a love-hate situation when it comes to arrangers.

I use one to chart film scores, but record the final product traditionally.

I use one out only when the job requires it. Believe it or not, I use it more with one or two other players than as a single (horns or guitar), so i can control all the back-up parts on the fly when comping for the other players.

They're tools to be used to embelish certain performances, but not to be "leaned on" to compensate for a lack of ability.


Being committed to jazz dosn't mean jazz players look down on others or think they are superior. The commitment is so strong that some just appear to be that way.

Russ

Yeah, look - I think what really made me open my big mouth in this thread was when Chas said...

"So in the end, the "entertainer" and the "jazz musician" are doing the same thing, entertaining. It's just that the "jazz musician" is entertaining a more refined, more enlightened, more sophisticated, less plastered, audience."

Which made me recall that, ironically enough, certain "Jazz Audiences" were more narrow minded and Elitist than a lot of the Performers I worked with.

I say ironically because I really REALLY try to have a continual respect for ANY type of audience I get, but the inference that Jazz audiences are "better" than most other audiences is a little too much for me to take.

I can't argue with the fact that in a lot of gigs (Pop/Top40/Mixed "disco" gigs) most of the people are there for reasons other than the music.

That's true.

But many other genres of music have their own refined, enlightened, sophisticated audiences within that Genre.

You know in a funny way the main difference between "Jazz" and "Pop" seems to be :

Music Vs Lyrics.

In my opinion - Jazz and all that follows from it is primarily a MUSIC thing - you know, 3 or 4 great players soloing when their time comes, comping for each other, pushing the limits of their improvisation when needed to - and the band is usually led by a Pianist/Horn Player/Guitarist/what have you (yes yes - there ARE plenty of Jazz gigs with singers I know I know) but the PLAYERS are the focus in general terms.

In a Pop/Rock/Contemporary gig - you have most always a Singer/Songwriter as the focus - with that front-persons Lyrics, Political views, Romantic views, Background/Culture, History (album sales!!) what have you as THAT primary focus.

My point (and I do have one!) is that many Rock/Pop/Singer/Songwriter audiences would rather lose themselves in a tremendous lyric delivered by a committed singer than listen to a great Horn lick.

In a funny way, they would look down upon Jazz audiences if you get my drift.

It's all relative I guess.....



[This message has been edited by hellboy44 (edited 11-15-2006).]

Kind of reminds me of the situation in the late 60's. Pop music consisted mainly of rock players (Les Pauls, Strats, B-3's) an one side and folk players on the other. Both got radio time. The folk players thought that the rock players were loud, obnoxious drunks playing music of no substance and chasing women all the time (sometimes true). The rockers thought that the folk players were faking sincerity to cover up their lack of ability (some were).

Jazz is an acquired tast, kind of like fine brandy. If you're not into it, you probably don't like it.

Some jazz players spend years refining a skill which appeals to a smaller and smaller audience. Jobs are scarse, and compensation is often not enough to live on.

The music, people, venues and money are different, not necessarily superior.

To me, that's just the way it is and we need to make the best of it, whichever side we're on.

Russ

Let me post a quick thought here...

There is a "middle ground" with jazz also that does appeal to a very wide audience. Some jazz is what I call "difficult listening music" and it takes a trained mind to appreciate it, sort of like jazz musicians playing for other jazz musicians. But the softer smooth-jazz (aka contemporary jazz or c-jazz) has a very wide audience and is nearly unversally accepted (except by the old school jazz musos but how many of them are in your average audience anyway?). It's quite easy to take the old standards and also some well known pop songs and jazz up the rhythm and melodies a little so they have a a new twist and present them as something fresh and modern. I pretty much make my living doing this and it gets positive reactions from young and old alike.

I'm in the process of polishing up my Christmas music which I start playing next weekend (already!)... and you can bet Santa's boots it'll be a C-Jazz Christmas once again...

Esh, you're absolutely right. Now that I think about it, that's what I mostly do, too. This kind of music appeals to the owners and patrons of many upscale restaurants. Many contemporary tunes are now being played on contemporary jazz format stations(smooth jazz). Think of Foreplay, Lee Retinauer, The Rippingtons and many more.

You have to watch volume and make sure lead lines are not too busy, but there's lots of lattitude to play tuens of significance, so both the player(s) and the audience enjoys themselves. It's all about attitude and interpretation.

There are always "hard-line" outlets (with little or no pay) to play Bill Evans, Monk, Chet Baker, etc.

I'm personally very glad for the opportunity you have identified, because starvation is not an attractive option, in my mind.

Esh, this is one of the best thought-out, well-articulated view on this complex subject I've seen.

Thanks,


Russ

Esh, that soft middle ground Jazz (most likely done with a popular vocalist) doing more mainstream material was what I included in the "pop" material I spoke of - perhaps I didn't make that clear enough.

I am/was "hard line" enough to not consider that strictly "Jazz" but more a watered down version that appeals to that mainstream audience.

Captain Russ - I'm surprised that's what you do, because I got the impression in your posts that you catered for the more Hardcore Jazz aficionados.

You're certainly capable of doing more than that judging by your CV.

(I hope to have a CV like yours one day!)

I will compromise and play what I call smooth jazz, because I think that it's an art to be able to play a variety of good songs with a jazz attitude.

I'd like to be hardcore, but that just isn't possible around here; at least if you want to make a living.

I do smooth jazz about 50% of the time and appreciate the jobs and money.

The rest of the time, I play for me (25%-pretty straight ahead jazz) or for projects (film scores) I get my satisfaction from the WHOLE film project (writing, shooting editing, etc.)


I've been lucky...and PRACTICAL. the thing is, I want to DO IT as long as I can, enjoy myself, get paid and please whoever I'm working for (owners, promoters, organizations and individuals).


Russ

Yep. Bravo!

Most jazz, I could not care less and I know few people who could. That doesn't mean it's not good. But don't count me out because I think Hank Williams was the greatest songwriter who ever lived. Give me a song, a fiddle, a steel guitar with good players and I can challenge anyone NOT to like it. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. The second bet, if that one doesn't win, is... Give me cajun music and if you are there to experience it and don't like it, well, you are dead.

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Bill
Yamaha PSR2000

Bill, you're obviously very passionate about a musical form that I'm lukewarm (at best) about. You've also declared on more than one occasion, your distaste for "jazz" (however one defines it). I think that has a lot to do with what one is used to, and is comfortable playing. I also realize that there are extreme levels of quality and variation within each genre'. There is also probably something to be learned and admired in each of these musical forms if one is open-minded enough to stop and listen without prejudice. I love Willie Nelson's version of GEORGIA (nearly as much as Ray's), but I think that's because I love both the tune AND Willie's unapologetic image (I loved it when the cops found a stash of grass on his tour bus; what the heck did they expect ).

The thing is, all forms of music (except Schalager ) have something to offer in terms of ideas and inspiration. I do believe that some forms are more complex and therefore less-accessible, than others. But in the end, most forms have borrowed from others; jazz from blues, folk from country, blues from gospel, etc. Hey, it's all good.

chas

I got a little fired up, hope I didn't offend anyone. I have said before and I'll say again, I think jazz players are the most proficient players, musically. But I'm the type... you put someone like Kris Kristofferson or Hank Willaims on a barstool with a beat up acoustic guitar, singing three chord songs.. and I'd be in Heaven. They can't play well and they sing kinda raw, but... WOW. It's like old blues guys. Very raw and real.

There is some jazzy stuff I really like. But to listen to jazz a LOT is not for me. Much of it is just too doggone busy for me.

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Bill
Yamaha PSR2000

While I applaud those who have mastered the art of playing various forms of jazz, I guess I'm just a down-home kinda' country boy at heart. As Bill said, a couple bar stools, guitars, three chords and a bit of creativity will get my feet tapping every time. When I'm where someone is doing an incredible jazz performance, I know the music is playing, but most of the time I'm just not inspired by what I hear--even from the best groups.

Cheers from an old, country boy,

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

WOW...you'd think that the Kentucky guy would be the one into country music.that might well have been the case if I wasn't an "Army brat" growing up. And, the response from the "Rhode Island flash" is a little suprising to me.

Here's where the entertainment factor (and my lack of the ability to do it) comes in. I know that simpler structures with memorable lyrics appeals to the widest audience, but I just can't bring myself to be satisfied doing country or many three chord tunes. Jazz is likea drug...once you're into it, you're hooked, just aren't satisfied doing anything else and must contend with fewer jobs, less pay, smaller audiences, etc.

When I see a stool and an acoustic guitar on a bandstand, I leave, unless it's a nylon string to be played by an accomplished instrumentalist or James Taylor is in the wings.

Different strokes, I guess. Here's hoping everyone here is happy regardless of what you choose to play.

Russ (the music snob) Lay

An then there was the one about the jazz musician and the country musician who made a dope run to Columbia, got caught and were sentenced to be executed by firing squad. The captain asked,

"Any last request?" to which the country musician replied,

"Yes, I'd like to hear Achy Breaky Heart one more time."

The captain turned to the jazz musician who begged,

"Shoot me first".

Ian



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Remember to leave good news alone.

Chas, NOW you've done it--offended all the hard-core Shlager fans!
What the heck is Shlager anyway? The Shlager styles sound like CW or Rockabilly with an accordian in them.
DonM

????? .... did I miss something??? ... what is this in relation to ??? ...

t.

JUST DO IT !!! I think that's what he's talking about???? When I saw RI flash that caught my eye too

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schlager

Bill, on a board as diverse as this one, if you didn't offend SOMEbody, you probably didn't say anthing of significance . And remember, you're always entitled to my opinion .

chas



[This message has been edited by cgiles (edited 11-17-2006).]

I didn't REALLY want to know! I thought it was a kind of chili dog or something.

DonM

Tony...old brain was disconnected...I was referring to Gary's comment about liking country music. Thought he was from RI. He's from MD (The People's Republic of..., I believe).


russ

All I can say is... Thank God we actually care about this stuff enough to get worked up about it!

In just about everything that the human animal does, there are people that care, people that don't care, and people that care too much!

Take wine, for instance. There are those who drink it because it's nice, there are those that drink it to get drunk, and there are those who base their whole lives around it, and the knowledge of it.

Same with music... Some people like a little light classical music, others can't stand it, and others that, if their friends don't recognize that a fugue is being stated, lose all respect for them!

I like the players who care just enough to appreciate and enjoy most music, but don't take their love of it too far, and use their love of one style or composer to denigrate others'.

I like Coltrane AND the Balfa Brothers. I like Mozart AND Schoenberg. I like the Carpenters AND the Sex Pistols. Life is too short to get exclusionary.....

WHEW !!! ... at least I can sleep tonight ...
t.

I know you guys and gals will not belive this, but the People's Republic of Maryland is south of the Mason\Dixon Line. Yep, half the state was on the side of the Confederates, while the other half sided with the Union. I guess that's why I like Sinatra and Hank equally.

Cheers,

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

Same with Kentucky, Gary...1/2 Yankees, 1/2 Confederates during the war.

But, I'll take a pass on Hank.


Russ