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#104434 - 11/14/06 12:19 PM Re: Piano bar, the worst gig around
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Russ....It would be my honor to watch you perform sometime if I'm in the area.....as a fellow Pro I look between the lines to find The "Entertainer" in acts that NoBody can see or hear from the outside....the word entertainer takes on many definitions .....but I'm sure you fall into the category nicely in your own way & style for sure....stay well & happy holiday to you & yours!!

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#104435 - 11/14/06 12:29 PM Re: Piano bar, the worst gig around
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Russ, Russ, Russ....as a fellow jazz player who has real difficulty even saying "short call for alcohol" (announcing the break), I understand your point.......understand it, not necessarily agree with it. I think the people that came to watch Miles play all night with his back to the audience WERE there to be entertained. Its just that they were entertained by the great music and the knowledge that they were in the presence of greatness.

The point is, it really is all about entertainment at some level. It's just that those of us who are blessed to be able to play jazz at a high level can entertain both ourselves AND the audience at the same time.

So in the end, the "entertainer" and the "jazz musician" are doing the same thing, entertaining. It's just that the "jazz musician" is entertaining a more refined, more enlightened, more sophisticated, less plastered, audience.



chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#104436 - 11/14/06 12:42 PM Re: Piano bar, the worst gig around
captain Russ Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 7291
Loc: Lexington, Ky, USA
Well put, Chas....you NAILED IT!


Russ

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#104437 - 11/14/06 02:25 PM Re: Piano bar, the worst gig around
hellboy44 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/03
Posts: 541
Loc: Australia
Well this little interchange has reminded me how far short my musical skills fall, and how much of a gap there is in "attitude" (still) with Jazz musos....

Do you guys even PLAY with arrangers?
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#104438 - 11/14/06 02:43 PM Re: Piano bar, the worst gig around
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Most around here just think Jazz music is a bunch of POTTED Up Drunken freaks jamming on stage aimlessly with no beginning or end...
although good jazz player are some of the best musicians in the business they never get the recognition they deserve....and that's sad.

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#104439 - 11/14/06 03:11 PM Re: Piano bar, the worst gig around
hellboy44 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/03
Posts: 541
Loc: Australia
Yes I know what you mean.

Interestingly enough, I started my musical life as a formally trained Jazz/Latin/Rock Drummer (at one of the best schools in Australia) and thought perhaps my life was going to be "the scene" and all that entailed.

I did play with a lot of Jazz players, and you're right, the best ones are fine open minded musicians - I just often found the Audiences, the hangers on, and the bad Jazz musos to be too elitist and (in a funny way) narrow minded.

I had to get out of that scene, and have now found myself a new philosphy.

As a writer (not a particularly good one!)and performer (I'm not going to use the "E" word again....) I try to bring "something worthwhile" to the masses - and all THAT means is honesty and taste in Writing/Performing - whilst not being "boring" or "introverted".

To put it better, I want to write and perform popular - "mass market" songs in the commercial world, that are also "great" works.

Maybe a good example would be the greatest of the Beatles songs, or U2 or ...take your pick - enormously popular material, yet with a depth (and innovation) that genuinely adds to the culture.

Well that's the dream anyway...lol....
_________________________
God I hate signatures.

BUT...

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#104440 - 11/14/06 03:23 PM Re: Piano bar, the worst gig around
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Quote:
Originally posted by hellboy44:
Well this little interchange has reminded me how far short my musical skills fall, and how much of a gap there is in "attitude" (still) with Jazz musos....

Do you guys even PLAY with arrangers?



I can only speak for myself, but yes, I play with arrangers every single day. I have a yammy and a korg and play the korg every day and yammy at least once a month . I didn't mean to come across as an elitist, either in musical taste or playing ability. Truth is, I would describe myself as, at best, a competent player; able to "make the gig" with other pro-level players. I realize that if I were any better than merely competent, more people would know me. My strengths are 1) knowing most of the tunes (in the correct key), 2) able to read the charts on the fly, 3)playing in a rather transparent style that fits easily with most jazz trio/quartet formats an 4) not hitting on the female singer (usually). Although I have owned (and enjoyed) a number of arranger keyboards and modules, including the g800, g1000, PA1x Pro, and Tyros2, I have never performed in public with one. That's because, aside from a few solo piano and solo "B3" gigs, I've never really done the OMB thing (can't sing, for one thing).

Again, sorry for coming across like a "jazz snob". I'm fully aware that many jazz and classical players do. In the end, it's the "soul" that counts, and I've got plenty of that.

Peace,

chas


[This message has been edited by cgiles (edited 11-14-2006).]
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"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#104441 - 11/15/06 12:23 AM Re: Piano bar, the worst gig around
doc-z Offline
Member

Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 436
Loc: Norway
Hey I'm not saying that people don't appreciate good talent! I love to watch great players perform! And I'm there for the music, not the jokes. But as Chas said, not everyone has the ability to appreciate great talent. They only hear the music. They don't think about "how the heck is he pumping out those swinging 16ths?" or "Wow that guys got some hot licks!" The regular crowd over here usually get more out of me playing Jerry Lee Lewis type stuff, rather than George Gerswhin or Cole Porter. It's a shame, but that's the way it is. DnJ I too had a difficult time comming to terms with the entertainment part of my act. Because I'm not the kind of guy who pulls down his pants for a laugh. I don't even think that type of stuff is funny. Stuff like that is funny maybe one time, but the second time I find myself thinking "Oh man, here's that ass guy again...". But what I did was starting to talk in between numbers. While I'm fidling with patches or drum patterns. Introducing the songs, not like a DJ, but tell them stuff about the song, why I like it and stuff like that. After a while the comments got more and more funny, and I got a better response from the crowd. Now I usually have them in my hand the whole evening. The most important thing is to be true to yourself.

Doc-Z

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#104442 - 11/15/06 09:25 AM Re: Piano bar, the worst gig around
captain Russ Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 7291
Loc: Lexington, Ky, USA
I have a love-hate situation when it comes to arrangers.

I use one to chart film scores, but record the final product traditionally.

I use one out only when the job requires it. Believe it or not, I use it more with one or two other players than as a single (horns or guitar), so i can control all the back-up parts on the fly when comping for the other players.

They're tools to be used to embelish certain performances, but not to be "leaned on" to compensate for a lack of ability.


Being committed to jazz dosn't mean jazz players look down on others or think they are superior. The commitment is so strong that some just appear to be that way.

Russ

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#104443 - 11/15/06 10:43 PM Re: Piano bar, the worst gig around
hellboy44 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/03
Posts: 541
Loc: Australia
Yeah, look - I think what really made me open my big mouth in this thread was when Chas said...

"So in the end, the "entertainer" and the "jazz musician" are doing the same thing, entertaining. It's just that the "jazz musician" is entertaining a more refined, more enlightened, more sophisticated, less plastered, audience."

Which made me recall that, ironically enough, certain "Jazz Audiences" were more narrow minded and Elitist than a lot of the Performers I worked with.

I say ironically because I really REALLY try to have a continual respect for ANY type of audience I get, but the inference that Jazz audiences are "better" than most other audiences is a little too much for me to take.

I can't argue with the fact that in a lot of gigs (Pop/Top40/Mixed "disco" gigs) most of the people are there for reasons other than the music.

That's true.

But many other genres of music have their own refined, enlightened, sophisticated audiences within that Genre.

You know in a funny way the main difference between "Jazz" and "Pop" seems to be :

Music Vs Lyrics.

In my opinion - Jazz and all that follows from it is primarily a MUSIC thing - you know, 3 or 4 great players soloing when their time comes, comping for each other, pushing the limits of their improvisation when needed to - and the band is usually led by a Pianist/Horn Player/Guitarist/what have you (yes yes - there ARE plenty of Jazz gigs with singers I know I know) but the PLAYERS are the focus in general terms.

In a Pop/Rock/Contemporary gig - you have most always a Singer/Songwriter as the focus - with that front-persons Lyrics, Political views, Romantic views, Background/Culture, History (album sales!!) what have you as THAT primary focus.

My point (and I do have one!) is that many Rock/Pop/Singer/Songwriter audiences would rather lose themselves in a tremendous lyric delivered by a committed singer than listen to a great Horn lick.

In a funny way, they would look down upon Jazz audiences if you get my drift.

It's all relative I guess.....



[This message has been edited by hellboy44 (edited 11-15-2006).]
_________________________
God I hate signatures.

BUT...

www.chi-chi.com.au

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