Ian, Tony, and everyone else, I'm not all that honorable (ask my wife).......BUT, I want my grandkids to be. This was just about trying to teach them that life is not always about being on the receiving end (something I felt that their parents hadn't properly conveyed). Looking back, if I had to grade them, the 5yr.old would have gotten a 'D', the 3yr.old, a flat-out 'F'. Oh well, I'll keep trying, despite their lousy parents .

chas