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 General Arranger Keyboard Forum
 Faking Performance (Page 1)
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| Author | Topic: Faking Performance |
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beachbum Member |
posted 11-26-2002 02:58 PM
   
Hi Folks, I thought this interesting and would like to know how you folks feel. With the ability of most boards to play midi files, you can book gigs and fake playing out the Ying yang. Does this upset any of the folks that actually play? However, if you can't sing to save your life or someone you actually care about, thanks to all the vocal effects you can sound like the next American Idol? Is the talent to actually play and sing still viable or do folks depend on the ignorance of the general public.... As for me, vocals, I use no other effect than a bit of reverb. And when playing the keys I record the performance before-hand and play usually right handed parts, (Trumpet, string, flute) during performance, after all I sing much better than I play. However, if everyone can sound good singing with effects, what's the point??? By the way I use my keyboard for more than this. I like to compose originals, one track at a time. I like to arrange more than play. What do you folks think? Technolgy is great, but to what end? IP: Logged |
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trtjazz Member |
posted 11-26-2002 03:11 PM
BB, IMO.......a person who fakes performances, like Millie Vanille (or whoever they were) will meet with the same end. Performance is based on a whole lot more and needs more than playing midifiles like a Karaoke machine. A set that relies on this method only won't last very long at all, unless this is the crowd type you are playing to. As an amendment to this I should also add, it really depends on what it is you are trying to acheive as an entertainer and who your audience is. [This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 11-27-2002).] IP: Logged |
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cam8neel Member |
posted 11-26-2002 03:41 PM
Here's my opinion, for what it's worth. I play midi files in my act through my PSR2000, but remove all the keyboard parts so I can play them live myself. Doing this, I do not feel as if I'm selling out at all. In live situations, I find people are quite impressed with the fact that the song being played sounds "just like the original". Can't quite understand the fuss, but nevertheless, I find it to be the case in almost every live situation. Again, just my opinion...  Angelo IP: Logged |
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Jerryghr Member |
posted 11-26-2002 05:48 PM
Just like any job, you have to use the right tools to perform the job. The arranger supplies a vast array of tools. It is up to the performer to pick and choose all the right tools that are available to them. In this case the tools are free to use. If I wanted to sound the same without midi I would have to hire 3-6 sidemen to perform the task, and I would still only be performing one part of the song. Using the arranger and some midi arrangements, I can please a larger variety of the audience and keep the price reasonable. The only downside is you put a lot of sidemen out of work. The musicians union used to make us charge extra for a rhythm machine, since it was putting drummers out of work. The extra charge helped level the playing field. Along came the dj's with their records with no musical ability and put us all out of work. Now we are able to compete them for jobs we lost. Regards, Jerry IP: Logged |
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Scottyee Member |
posted 11-26-2002 05:55 PM
I've basically STOPPED 'playing along' with midi files all together, except for only a very FEW songs. Nothing BEATS playing 100% LIVE in 'arranger mode' because it offers MUCH more excitement & energy when you're playing (the KB with BOTH hands), singing, and triggering multi pad riffs, fills, and instrument setups 'on the fly'. I find that 'playing along' to a midi file really "LOCKS me in a BOX"; while playing in full arranger mode allows me to be much more spontaneously creative: triggering 'on the fly' key modulation, tempo changes, variation changes, chord substitions, adding additional chorus', etc, etc, etc. All these skills (to me) separate a talented arranger keyboard performer from a karaoke singer who performs with backup tapes, or someone who 'plays along' with a pre-sequenced midi file. I don't want to knock these other performance alternatives, but since this is an 'arranger' keyboard forum, I hope to PROMOTE arranger keyboard 'PLAYING' to the fullest! Being able to play an arranger keyboard is one thing, but to fully utilize its potential in a live interactive manner takes special skill that 'sets it apart' from all other forms of music performance. I hope we all continue to work on furthering our unique arranger playing skills, which in turn will raise the level of respect we get from our fellow traditional musicians, as well as the listening public. - Scott IP: Logged |
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DonM Member |
posted 11-26-2002 06:56 PM
Well said, Scott. DonM IP: Logged |
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kbrkr Member |
posted 11-26-2002 07:04 PM
I find this topic very interesting. I give you solo performers all the credit in the world. I don't think it matters whether you play to midi tracks or play with a style. The point is, you are out there by yourself putting it all on the line. I do think most audiences are pretty savvy and can smell out a cheezy performance. If the midi tracks suck or the vocalist sounds like Bill Murray from SNL, they aren't going to buy the performance. I personally play in an Oldies band doing Temptation, Box Tops, etc. covers with 3 male singers and 4 musicians so they cover my arse bigtime if I screw up. My role in the band is to arrange the performances and play the fluff; the intro piano piece, the sax solos, string parts, B3 hammond solo's, and brass/horn parts. I do this with both a Korg Triton and a Yammy Psr 9000 which I have since sold. I midi the Korg and the 9000 together so that I can switch between the 9000 as a controller for the Korg samples since I can make ultra swift registration and voice changes with the 9000 and the 76 keys of the Triton to play more larger range pieces. I use the 9000 arranger features at home in the studio to rehearse my parts and to fool around with creating and composing, not to mention entertaining family and friends. To all you solo artists, Rock on!! Rgs, IP: Logged |
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beachbum Member |
posted 11-26-2002 07:30 PM
Great stuff guys, I just thought it would be an interesting topic since the new boards are only going to do more and more. My hat is off to all who can fly by the seat of their pants. I can fly after a twelve pack and an all night jam session, but ususally by then I'm missing my pants. ------------------ IP: Logged |
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Mosiqaar Member |
posted 11-26-2002 09:13 PM
I agree with ScottYee 100%... I would not play to midifile simply cause its no fun for me, but even if I wanted to I could not do so for the type of music and audience I have because I have to go NON STOP from on song to another and play a whole set together...in which case I cant do with midi. More over, I do improvise alot (sometimes I will repeat a verse twice or three times if I am in the mood), so Midi is not good in this case cause I would have to follow what has been sequenced already. Nothing better than being "bussier than a pussycat on hot cole" IP: Logged |
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Uncle Dave Member |
posted 11-27-2002 12:18 AM
I've been performing as a solo artist since WAY before arrangers or midi were introduced. I played straight piano(Rhodes) first, then added Moog bass(left hand) then a drum machine and finally, when midi was introduced ... I layered a synth with a second sound for my right hand "color" sounds while keeping a dedicated keyboard for piano parts. This lasted till the arrangers finally put good sounding drum machines in the keyboards. after that ... I slimmed down to just one keyboard, but still played all the bass and piano parts live to the rhythm machine looped patterns. With the advent of midi ...many players started using sequences to add the hands that they could not provide, and give them a competitive edge with guys like me - that could get a party dancing with just MY hands. Well ................ the midi sounds got better and better, and pretty soon, the accepted "norm" in the trenches (clubs and parties) included at least at SOME level ... midi backing tracks. This was all taking place at the same time that the "K" word was being introduced from Japan. The K-Jays were getting about $300 or more per show to just emcee the night. Made me sad ... but I still worked the same schedule. 5 and 6 night a week and lots of afternoon parties and studio sessions. DJ's only hurt the bad musicians, or bad business people. If you were a singer or guitarist in the 70's and 80's working clubs and eeking out a living ..... it became almost impossible as the 90's drew near. Bands were downsized to fit the diminishing budgets in the rooms and rising insurance rates due to DUI laws kept the clubs from paying a lot for live music. The returns just weren't there. At least at a "K" show .... people came in. Granted - they act like morons, but they DO fill the seats. My point is this: Many fine singers, drummers, guitarists etc. that used to work a lot were out of work all of a sudden due to downsizing. What do you do if you are the piano player in a 5 piece band? You play piano right? Do you play everyone else's parts too? NO. I see no difference in the validity of the performance. I miss playing funky clav parts to disco and R&B tunes. It's much more authentic and energetic if I sequence the backing tracks and play my ass off on the D6 or the Rhodes. Even when I play bass ... I can manage to get the groove happenin' with just those 2 hands, but it's harder to make a full sound because SOMETHING is always left out. I like arrangers. I like sequences. I like simple piano chords. In short ...... I Like Music. I like playing it, and I like the people to like LISTENING and DANCING to it. My basic rule of thumb is this: If it WORKS .... keep doing it. So many times at weddings you'll hear 4 or 5 fast, modern tunes in a row and only a handful of barefoot, beer-drinking girls are dancing. Then a slow standard comes on and the floor FILLS up! Does the entertainer follow that with another slow one? Usually no. They change gears again and lose MOST of the dance floor. Today's music is getting more and more "signature" specific with certain riffs and catch phrases that make it impossible for an arranger pattern to do justice to the song. If your crowd is over 40 (55 really) .... you have a shot at acceptance using arranger patterns, but the younger people see it as "hokey" and sophmorish. In many cases - I'd rather play a left hand bass line and right hand chords to a drum beat than use a generic, overused pattern that sounds like every other player that owns a PA80. I like that intimate, small combo sound that only manual bass can provide. There is much more energy and "groove" when the piano and bass are in sync. For bigger sound - the sequence is the winner. The arranger fits somewher in between the two. (easy fellas ....... it's just MY views) To summarize ....... there is NOTHING fake about using backing patterns, tracks, sequences, or whatever - as long as YOU are in control of the performance and you are playing YOUR part along with it. If you want to be a "front person" - that's OK too ... just don't fake it on dead keys. Get out in front and sing to the clients. They are VERY used to that concept. IP: Logged |
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cam8neel Member |
posted 11-27-2002 05:40 AM
UD, Thank you. I couldn't have said it any better myself. Ang IP: Logged |
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Pilot Member |
posted 11-27-2002 05:52 AM
What if you don't like the styles on your arranger. You can with some effort make your own but since Yamaha for instance don't really encourage you to do that it gets difficult. So you use Band-in-a-Box or Jammer to generate a few extra styles. Is that cheating? I don't think so, especially not for the solo performer. As Uncle Dave says, we're making music and anything that adds to the performance is always welcome. IP: Logged |
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tony mads usa Member |
posted 11-27-2002 07:10 AM
We can always count on good insight from the "players" on this board ... good job ... I'l add my cent and a half UD ...."So many times at weddings you'll hear 4 or 5 fast, modern tunes in a row and only a handful of barefoot, beer-drinking girls are dancing. Then a slow standard comes on and the floor FILLS up! Does the entertainer follow that with another slow one? Usually no. They change gears again and lose MOST of the dance floor. Idiot behavior. Give 'em what they like." Man ... were you at our office 'holiday' party last Friday nite?!? ... That's EXACTLY what was happening ... I have some respect for DJ's because there are some who can really work a crowd ... But these 2 guys were nothing more than CD spinners, and as long as they kept a certain 5 young ladies on the floor, nothing else mattered ... and when they DID play a ballad, or even some of the 'older' RnR, the floor was packed ... but then ...?!?!... back to the 'barefoot 5' Scott, I agree that as a performer, playing LIVE, utilizing all our talents and all the facilities of our kb creates a lot of energy and excitement ... but I think sometimes thatis more for the performer than the audience ... Don't get me wrong, I think the audience feels and reacts to the energy we create, but can they appreciate what it takes for us to do it?? ... especially in larger crowds, I tend to doubt it .... As for midis... Well I think the arrangement for certain songs is what the crowd is looking for and will respond to, so there are some tunes that I will use midis for ... However, in small venues, I have no problem taking an otherwise 'highly orchestrated' tune, and cutting it down to a trio or quartet style, played 'on the fly' .... Whatever our personal situation, I believe each of us has to feel that, however we do it, we are giving the customer what they are paying for, and take great satisfaction that we are able to do that... IP: Logged |
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Uncle Dave Member |
posted 11-27-2002 07:26 AM
quote: Good point. I also think it's a good idea for sequence users to "thin out" sequences for smaller parties too. Most of the time, I like to strip the horns and guitar parts, so it's a nice, small combo sound that leaves me plenty of room to comp on the changes. Final point - Sequences, arrangers, whatever ......... they ALL need the human element to make them shine. To paraphrase another member ....(
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Lou Y Member |
posted 11-27-2002 03:27 PM
There is so much that can be said on this subject. I'll try to point out my own feelings as well as problems... My entire career in music consisted of singing. Yes the front man I was and loved every minute of it. We opened for many big acts such as Billy Joel to Stewart. Was on the road quite a bit during the 70s and 80s. The nineties started building my own little studio, as bands were too hard to keep together. (As you all know) Today I enjoy writing, recording and playing my own material but I can't play well at all. (Really). Most of the instruments in my studio consist of KBs and sound modules that create movement, which aid me in my writing. I respect and envy many of my fellow members who can play well, and I know there are many of you. So... my problem is, that I would love to play out, even a very small gig, but the only way I could do that is to utilize midis that I create. I would be able to add some live additions though. So why don't I do it.... Well one reason I feel that I would be selling myself a little short and would not want to be looked at like some out there look at us playing arranger keyboards.  Please feel free to voice your thoughts. Regards to all...Lou IP: Logged |
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DonM Member |
posted 11-27-2002 03:34 PM
Lou, I wouldn't worry about how you are perceived by the public. 95% of them do not know the difference, whether you are playing live, using midi files or using the arranger functions. Do whatever is necessary for you to do the show, but still inject yourself into it. DonM IP: Logged |
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Lou Y Member |
posted 11-27-2002 03:52 PM
Don, Thanks for your imput. I know your out there and know what they expect. Is it really like that on a small job? Lou IP: Logged |
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Uncle Dave Member |
posted 11-27-2002 10:36 PM
Look at the "American Idol" .... all they did was sing, and someone payed them big bucks to do it ! The public is comfortable with singers out front. Speech is easy to identify with, but not everyone can play an instrument ! get out there and SING ! IP: Logged |
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Lou Y Member |
posted 11-27-2002 10:49 PM
UD, Thanks, maybe I should stop worring about how the crowd would except, and rely on what I feel I have to offer. Lou IP: Logged |
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Scottyee Member |
posted 08-14-2006 09:16 AM
<bump>  IP: Logged |
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GlennT Member |
posted 08-14-2006 09:26 AM
quote: I agree, keep it real... BTW, just what are those vocal effects? IP: Logged |
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Scottyee Member |
posted 08-14-2006 11:16 AM
quote: Donny: My attitude has nothing to do with being a purist, but merely holding the standards of musicial honesty and integrity. Please watch this 'must see': of which clearly demonstrates what I so disrespect! This video was sent to SZ member Heikki Kahkola (aka the wolf) by purported some pro musician entertainer by the name of Johnny, in Silkborg, Dennmark. Accompying the video clip, Johnny wrote this: "Hello again greetings.. Not only did this guy (without permission rip off Heikki's midi file song performance), but had the nerve to attempt to give his audience the impression he was actually playing it live too. Scott IP: Logged |
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cgiles Member |
posted 08-14-2006 11:59 AM
Despite the well-thought-out responses, we have to keep in mind that they are all coming from people that play arranger keyboards. I'm sure that if this were a non-arranger keyboard forum, you'd get quite a different set of opinions. Who'd be right? Nobody. Let's be honest. We're all constantly trying to justify our actions, validate our approach to music, even when nobody gives a damn. You want the truth? Name your ten favorite keyboard players. How many play arranger keyboard? But back to the original question. Are you faking it? The answer....some are, some aren't. If your intent is to deliberately deceive, whether or not ENTERTAINMENT is your goal, then yes, you are faking it. Of course, you don't need an arranger keyboard to do that, any old KB will do. So for me, "faking it" is 10% action and 90% intent. As a pilot, am I faking it when I shoot a perfect approach (in weather) with my very sophistocated auto-pilot? Do I get credit for operating the hell out of my auto-pilot? My passengers think so . The plane owner without an auto-pilot thinks differently. Soooo, tell me what answer you want, I'll tell you which forum to visit.chas IP: Logged |
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DonM Member |
posted 08-14-2006 12:37 PM
Chas said "Name your ten favorite keyboard players." Not in any order: I'm really old, and the rest of the names will appear in my brain as soon as I hit submit. [This message has been edited by DonM (edited 08-16-2006).] IP: Logged |
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MrEd Member |
posted 08-14-2006 12:38 PM
quote: Its human-accompaniment feature really lacks! IP: Logged |
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Craig_UK Member |
posted 08-14-2006 12:46 PM
DonM don't you think it's bad enough having X Factor and American Idol without turning Synthzone into a contest... Everyone has a different favourite player on here because each individuals taste in music is different. Why don't we all just appreciate each other for a change for what we all post for others to listen to and leave it at that? Some players also sing, others don't or can't.... IP: Logged |
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DonM Member |
posted 08-14-2006 12:51 PM
Craig, my point was I like ALL the arranger players. No contest at all. Trying to lighten it up not tighten it up, my friend. Besides, you're on the list! :} Maybe I'd better delete if it's going to cause a fuss. There are more than enough of those already. DonM IP: Logged |
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cgiles Member |
posted 08-14-2006 01:14 PM
DonM, no need to delete. I think most of us got it. In fact, I appreciate those among us that don't take ourselves too seriously. Heck, even I don't believe half of what I say .chas PS. love the reference to the brain clicking on after the fact....happens to me quite regularly these days. IP: Logged |
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freddynl Member |
posted 08-14-2006 02:35 PM
mmm...usually I stay away from these " sensitive" topics but I go on a holiday so what the h'ck. I think it is a non issue. You don't perform for the maybe "one" musician who "might" be in the audience. Personally I prefer any full live band over any live playing arranger keyboardist and I prefer any live playing keyboardist over a midiplayer, that's not the issue... but there's a good reason why some dj's are doing very well.. They have a good show! This is my personal opinion so it is not an attack to anybody.. Fred (I really love DON's comment IP: Logged |
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drdalet Member |
posted 08-14-2006 03:21 PM
Faking is never good. It doesn't become better if you use the word "playbacking" for it, but the reasons you want to do that are different. If you are recording a videoclip fi your "playbacking" has a sensible purpose - if you pretend playing while you let the keyboard play a midifile without any contribution to it (like doing a great dance  ) I would call it "faking".If you use a midifile and still play along with it - for instance on another keyboard - you are also performing. There are performances who interact with midifiles - changing the result with realtime actions on stage. That is performing too! But if you play a midifile and PRETEND you are playing... I would call that faking, even when you made the midifile yourself. If I play Love Boat I use multipads to add to my playing because I cannot play a countermelody at the same time as I do the main melody. But I am still performing because I play the main melody. And it is even risky, because if I press the wrong padbutton (or my timing is wrong) I am in a lot of trouble. (I use all 4 pads for the countermelody) [This message has been edited by drdalet (edited 08-14-2006).] IP: Logged |
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drdalet Member |
posted 08-14-2006 03:29 PM
quote: Thanks for this very inspiring IP: Logged |
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travlin'easy Member |
posted 08-14-2006 03:54 PM
I'm honored and very proud to be on Don Mason's list of top players--a feather in my cap! Thanks Don, Gary ------------------ IP: Logged |
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FAEbGBD Member |
posted 08-14-2006 04:27 PM
The last thread on this topic to which I replied a couple months ago was deleted. Why bump this one up from 4 years ago? IF my answer as well as the answers of others were worth deleting then....Heck with it! SO basically I'm writing to say that I'm not going to write anything. IP: Logged |
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Scottyee Member |
posted 08-14-2006 05:10 PM
Hi Rory, I REMEBER that posting thread well, and equally upset that your posting (as well as the entire thread) was deleted by our forum administrator. I'm afraid my reply (concuring with your opinion) got deleted as well, all because Nigel decided to remove the ENTIRE thread, just because of the 'few jerks' here posted offending remarks on that same thread. I feel a lot better at least knowing that there are a few among us here who share our sentiments over: faking performance. Perhaps there's hope for musicianship & integrity afterall. - Scott IP: Logged |
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renig Member |
posted 08-14-2006 05:28 PM
quote: My sentiments exactly. I've mentioned this before but FWIW, I use about 6 midi files out of 120 or so songs in our repertoire. IP: Logged |
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hellboy44 Member |
posted 08-14-2006 07:06 PM
I agree with Uncle Dave's posts more than I thought I could ever possibly agree with anyone! In my duo I work almost entirely with midi-files. I don't feel bad about that, because they are either programmed by me (either in total or in part), or I have scoured all the internet - (general sites, or exclusive midi-forums) and METICULOUSLY tweaked them, part by part, effect by effect, note by note if need be, to sound EXACTLY like the popular recorded version. And crack gags whenever we can! Sometimes I grab a tambourine or other light percussion (I'm a formally trained drummer as well) and go to town with a great rhythm and lead vocal "frontman performance". My wife either sings harmony, plays electric guitar (with a cosm amp - changing sounds as style dictates) or then takes over lead vocals (she's a MUCH better singer than me). We do this almost entirely to Midi backing like I said (occasionally I use the arranger for Old Time Dancing). We are continually in demand. Uncle Dave rock on! IP: Logged |
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Dnj Member |
posted 08-14-2006 07:23 PM
Hellboy.....nice post.... there are many acts around here like yours that are very successful around here in the casinos & elsewhere.....in today's world we have all the tools & they are meant to be used in many ways to entertain the masses. IP: Logged |
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Vadim Member |
posted 08-14-2006 08:16 PM
Playing Live is the Best(i mean, when you have a drummer, bassist, guitaris,t etc) But playing live on the arranger is not that Live,(only the right hand) because what you'r doing pretty much is just "inputing" chords, to a music style that wasn't made by you. I used to think that its better to play with style and that its the right way, but not any more, there are people sweating hours to make a backing track( a god one) or a midi file, and people can say: Ah, Its not live, everyone can play live, paly for beginning to the end and your done. But try to record a midi file, not everyone can do it, beacuse not too many people try hard enough. But Faking playing to someone alses work is the worse, it should be illegal. [This message has been edited by Vadim (edited 08-14-2006).] IP: Logged |
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bruno123 Member |
posted 08-14-2006 10:08 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vadim: [B]Playing Live is the Best(i mean, when you have a drummer, bassist, guitaris,t etc) But playing live on the arranger is not that Live,(only the right hand) because what you'r doing pretty much is just "inputing" chords, to a music style that wasn't made by you. When I play an arranger keyboard I have two hand that are playing live not one, just like the organ players do. “Faking a performance” – That’s a bit hard. I would like to keep the subject in three categories; 2-Entertaining for $$$; 1-Playing music; This is the part I love, it’s the reason I got into the music business. I love to play as live as it is possible and still keep like a full sounding group. I try and duplicate what I had when I had my own band. 3-The fakers; Well if they have any talent they’ll never know. IMHO, John C. IP: Logged |
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Craig_UK Member |
posted 08-15-2006 06:59 AM
Nice post Vadim. I totally agree that not everyone can program midi files, that's why there are so many bad ones on the net and available to buy from companies who seem to push out any trash just to get rich. I enjoy doing backing tracks for singers and groups on my PC and have done now for the past 17 years. Many singers can't play an instrument so they need good quality backing to bring their performances to life. I've been in bands, played on the organ circuit since I was 11 until 17 and I'm now a solo keyboard player, however I don't use any of my own backing tracks (not midi tracks, these are recorded as real audio files with real guitar parts played by me) and I would never consider using a SMF, but that's jsut me. I'd rather play 100% live and create my own interpretation of a song. I don't want to sound like any other keyboard player, I like my own style of playing so why be a carbon copy of someone else or just take the easy route out and fake to a midi entirely or just play a lead part over something pre-recorded. Midi will always be used and if it gets people work then good, but those who have to mime entirely over the top are nothing more than a poor excuse for an artiste and will get caught out sooner or later IP: Logged |
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video. What I espescially like about it, is that in the short time you can see his hands, it is obvious he doesn't even try to hide that he is not playing at all.