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Author	Topic: Faking Performance
tyrosman Member	posted 08-15-2006 09:55 AM you lot for got to add me to your top 10 of players guys i mean a real players like scott we dont even play midi files we do it all live guys opps & also pose &craig uk [This message has been edited by tyrosman (edited 08-15-2006).] IP: Logged
miden Member	posted 08-15-2006 12:54 PM if someone is using an arranger, then, they are certainly using midi files..that is, as people would know, is how the arranger files are recorded...as a whole lot of repeating small midi files....so what's the difference playing arranger "midi files", playing them using left hand for chords/ bass and right hand for comping/soloing...OR a set midi file with drums and other fill instruments playing, whilst you play bass/chords with your left hand and comping/ soloing with right hand???? NONE NADA NIX NYET, apart from the fact arranger midi files repeat continuously, whereas the midi file has a fixed length....so on that basis and according to some arguments put forward on this thread,both methods are cheating..... .....personally i do not believe its cheating..the only way there is no cheating is if you have a guitar player, bass player, drummer, singer.....you get the picture IP: Logged
cgiles Member	posted 08-15-2006 01:12 PM quote: Originally posted by miden: ..the only way there is no cheating is if you have a guitar player, bass player, drummer, singer.....you get the picture If you think about it, assuming you're going for a band-type arrangement, what's the difference? YOU'RE still not doing those parts. In fact, you're not even providing those left-hand chords that drive the accompaniment. This has all been said before, I'm sure. Cheating/not cheating; just depends on you point of view. We all know that 10 Synthzoners are good for at least 11 opinions. chas IP: Logged
DonM Member	posted 08-15-2006 01:46 PM quote: Originally posted by tyrosman: you lot for got to add me to your top 10 of players guys i mean a real players like scott we dont even play midi files we do it all live guys opps & also pose &craig uk [This message has been edited by tyrosman (edited 08-15-2006).] Most certainly did include you. You must have overlooked your name on my list. Go look again. :} DonM IP: Logged
MrEd Member	posted 08-15-2006 02:13 PM Either my scrollin finger is over-fatigued or that list of Don's is getting longer each day. IP: Logged
Dnj Member	posted 08-15-2006 02:19 PM Miden & Cgiles..... spot on replies agreed!! IP: Logged
drdalet Member	posted 08-15-2006 04:30 PM quote: Originally posted by miden: .....personally i do not believe its cheating..the only way there is no cheating is if you have a guitar player, bass player, drummer, singer.....you get the picture I always liked playing with live musicians and my DX7 (and sometimes a real Fenderpiano), but I was the one who had to do the arrangements - I can do it, but I am not a professional and ik takes me a long time. And then the rehearsing..oh, yeah, we all had jobs so it was difficult to get together. The fact is that when it became too hard I stopped arranging, stopped rehearsing and stopped playing altogether. I needed a backingtrack - ok, why not do it on the computer. Well, I did for a while, but it takes a long time to make one. My main reason to buy an arranger keyboard was ... to play again. It took me a year to get back to the skills I had when I left off about 10 years earlier. Making a midifile and play with it could work, but I want a certain freedom too when I play; do an extra round of improvising when I feel like it and maybe even change chords. I like that freedom. Playing with breaks and vary the variations. Point is, I am performing. If you have real live musicians behind you, they are performing too - that doesn't make MY performance any better. I am even busier performing with an arranger, because when I played with a group I could rest while others, saxophone player or guitarist, took the stage with their improvisations. Now I have to be on my toes the whole song and pressing buttons (on time!) as well. I could take a rest and fake playing, but that is cheap. What about this: "And now for something I prepared earlier", start the midifile, leave the keyboard and watch it from the bar I am sure the audience will like that as a joke .... You can ask them while your keyboard "gently weeps" And maybe ask a few nice girls to dance to your midifile. [This message has been edited by drdalet (edited 08-15-2006).] IP: Logged
hellboy44 Member	posted 08-15-2006 05:04 PM One thing that has not been mentioned when playing with the "dreaded" "awful" "fake" SMF (which sounds awesome if you have talent, and the right keyboard (i.e. sound source). I play gigs where the "just like the record" sound is a big advantage for 2 types of audience. 1. Professional/semi-professional dancers (Ballroom, Rock n Roll, Latin etc) who are often used to rehearsing their routines to "Canned music" - CD's of course - and we go to great lengths to reproduce these arrangements live. 2. Young people who are in fact quite discerning (and at the same time - boring) in the fact they want the music/arrangement/production/quality of sounds to be JUST like the record (or re-mix on occasion which we also cater for). My point? There is an "art" or perhaps "discipline" to playing along to EXACT and STRICT sequences, instead of doing the arrangement how you feel at the time. We have to remember (or at least use lyric/chord sheets) the EXACT song arrangement for, what, half a dozen different Genres (Jazz, Top 40, Latin Rock n Roll Country etc etc). That ain't easy! 2 cents deposited. IP: Logged
MrEd Member	posted 08-15-2006 05:17 PM quote: Originally posted by DonM: Chas said "Name your ten favorite keyboard players." Not in any order: Uncle Dave Donny Scott Gary Eddie Fran Al AJ DanO Nick Frank Hank Tom Semi All the Tonys Eric Robert Mike Craig Dorantes Genesys John Peter Paul Mary KF KFC Squeakster Spalding McGregor Starkeeper Starship Vadim Esh Glen Rikki Dikki Tikki Tim Lou Jorgen Bob Gelman Dennis Ian Taike Wolfie Jerry Terry Chas Charles Charlie Chuck Chony Mr. Ed Mr. Fred Freddie Fredrick Angelo (all of them) Notlos Dreamer Tyrosman Russ NIGEL Pose Miden Jimmy Bebop BBum Boo Bo Bah 28 more guys you don't know, and 37 who I DO know and can't think of off the top of my head. Wait, you said 10. I know I've left a lot of them out, but ALL these guys play arrangers. DonM I'm really old, and the rest of the names will appear in my brain as soon as I hit submit. [This message has been edited by DonM (edited 08-15-2006).] Peter Paul & Mary? Keyboard players? They faked me out! and Don, you have to "learn to like yourself 1st". [This message has been edited by MrEd (edited 08-15-2006).] IP: Logged
Dnj Member	posted 08-15-2006 06:03 PM Uncle Dave wrote:....-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've been performing as a solo artist since WAY before arrangers or midi were introduced. I played straight piano(Rhodes) first, then added Moog bass(left hand) then a drum machine and finally, when midi was introduced ... I layered a synth with a second sound for my right hand "color" sounds while keeping a dedicated keyboard for piano parts. This lasted till the arrangers finally put good sounding drum machines in the keyboards. after that ... I slimmed down to just one keyboard, but still played all the bass and piano parts live to the rhythm machine looped patterns. At first - the idea of using an "oom paa" (arranger) backing was unacceptable to me, but slowly, the patterns got better and better .... so I caved and used a few at a time. I spaced them out and used the arranger sparingly. With the advent of midi ...many players started using sequences to add the hands that they could not provide, and give them a competitive edge with guys like me - that could get a party dancing with just MY hands. Well ................ the midi sounds got better and better, and pretty soon, the accepted "norm" in the trenches (clubs and parties) included at least at SOME level ... midi backing tracks. This was all taking place at the same time that the "K" word was being introduced from Japan. The K-Jays were getting about $300 or more per show to just emcee the night. Made me sad ... but I still worked the same schedule. 5 and 6 night a week and lots of afternoon parties and studio sessions. DJ's only hurt the bad musicians, or bad business people. If you were a singer or guitarist in the 70's and 80's working clubs and eeking out a living ..... it became almost impossible as the 90's drew near. Bands were downsized to fit the diminishing budgets in the rooms and rising insurance rates due to DUI laws kept the clubs from paying a lot for live music. The returns just weren't there. At least at a "K" show .... people came in. Granted - they act like morons, but they DO fill the seats. My point is this: Many fine singers, drummers, guitarists etc. that used to work a lot were out of work all of a sudden due to downsizing. What do you do if you are the piano player in a 5 piece band? You play piano right? Do you play everyone else's parts too? NO. I see nothing wrong with playing YOUR instrument to the capacity you are able, along with accompaniments by either live musicians, midi tracks or arranger patterns. I see no difference in the validity of the performance. My people come to see me make a show. I make parties. I set tempos. I pick WHAT to do and WHEN. I get paid to keep the action rolling. I sometimes use arranger patterns, sometimes manual bass and drums, sometimes midi sequences, and sometimes I use custom made audio tracks from my studio with backing vocals and extra instruments. All these tools provide me with a means to an end. They allow me to express my creative talents to make a show. Pushing fill-ins and selecting variations takes as much time, energy and expertise as it does to play creative, two fisted parts on a kb while a sequence plays the rest of the band's parts. Just like we ALL used to do when we had live playing members in the band. Remember bands????? I miss playing funky clav parts to disco and R&B tunes. It's much more authentic and energetic if I sequence the backing tracks and play my ass off on the D6 or the Rhodes. Even when I play bass ... I can manage to get the groove happenin' with just those 2 hands, but it's harder to make a full sound because SOMETHING is always left out. I like arrangers. I like sequences. I like simple piano chords. In short ...... I Like Music. I like playing it, and I like the people to like LISTENING and DANCING to it. I find that mostly - senior audiences are the quickest to accept a "canned" arrangement of a song, while the younger crowds definitely respond to the sequences more. I am STILL working the keys and the crowd ... but in a different way. My basic rule of thumb is this: If it WORKS .... keep doing it. So many times at weddings you'll hear 4 or 5 fast, modern tunes in a row and only a handful of barefoot, beer-drinking girls are dancing. Then a slow standard comes on and the floor FILLS up! Does the entertainer follow that with another slow one? Usually no. They change gears again and lose MOST of the dance floor. Idiot behavior. Give 'em what they like. Today's music is getting more and more "signature" specific with certain riffs and catch phrases that make it impossible for an arranger pattern to do justice to the song. If your crowd is over 40 (55 really) .... you have a shot at acceptance using arranger patterns, but the younger people see it as "hokey" and sophmorish. I tend to agree. In low volume settings, especially. Sequences are lame when played softly. They need the energy from the movement of air, since there is NO one sending the energy into the performance at THAT specific moment. In many cases - I'd rather play a left hand bass line and right hand chords to a drum beat than use a generic, overused pattern that sounds like every other player that owns a PA80. I like that intimate, small combo sound that only manual bass can provide. There is much more energy and "groove" when the piano and bass are in sync. For bigger sound - the sequence is the winner. The arranger fits somewher in between the two. (easy fellas ....... it's just MY views) To summarize ....... there is NOTHING fake about using backing patterns, tracks, sequences, or whatever - as long as YOU are in control of the performance and you are playing YOUR part along with it. If you want to be a "front person" - that's OK too ... just don't fake it on dead keys. Get out in front and sing to the clients. They are VERY used to that concept. Playing arrangers is a shortcut to a good sound, but it should not be a DESTINATION to aspire to. Use these tools to help you learn how to put it all together .... then go do it ! The important thing is energy. That comes from hard work Learn the parts ! [This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 08-15-2006).] IP: Logged
tony mads usa Member	posted 08-15-2006 07:23 PM WOW ... As one of the "Tonys" I made the list !!! ...... t. IP: Logged
beachbum Member	posted 08-15-2006 09:27 PM Wow.. One of my first post made a come back! I posted this when I first got my keyboard and I began loading midi files... I thought WOW! You don't even have to play the thing! However, that's not why I'm in it... I love the hobby and I call it a hobby and will never forget that.. I have a great job and I love recoding my music at nights and on the weekends... It's a great hobby to have and I enjoy ever minute of it.. Hope arranger boards get better and better.. I'm a composer most of all and arrangers are magic.. Thanks Don for putting me on the list! My anthem for all us minstrels was "can't stop playing" I made this for all of us folks driven by creating tunes.. Or is just me? http://www.soundclick.com/pro/view/01/default.cfm?bandID=313920&content=music One thing I'd like to address is I could not play my stuff live, at least it is my stuff.. i'd be lucky to make it playing the right handed parts... Recording is cool you can go back.. live, no going back... If I want to have my "created by me" playing, then so be it.. At least I'm not stealing.. Define an arranger Keyboard.. Recreate.. Recreate and embellish Create. Wish one is more valid? I spend hours upon hours getting it right.. It ain't live.. So my hats off to all the live players.. However, I don't gig... Yet.. by the way, if I do, it will be in a band.. Have follks ready.. [This message has been edited by beachbum (edited 08-15-2006).] IP: Logged
Nigel Administrator	posted 08-15-2006 10:18 PM I think all of us agree without a doubt ... faking playing is so lame. And most audiences would realize it eventually. But using a SMF as a backing track to perform over makes perfect sense for many acts. If you perform over then that is all that matters. My band does "Hella Good" by No Doubt that has a lot of pulsing electronica bass lines that I couldn't play live. So I sequenced them and play that with a click track to the drummer live on stage. But I never pretend to play the lines I am not playing. There are times when using SMF files makes perfect sense. Just don't prend you are actually playing them but perform over them by all means. That is what MIDI technology is great for. I'm sure that no-one using an arranger keyboard for live gigs pretends to play the automated backing, just the right hand improvisation. That would amount to the same thing. You might find the rare case like the one Scott mentioned but I really think people like that are the tiny minority. Someone in the audience would wake up to it eventually and call the bluff. I'm not concerned that someone with SMFs is going to take jobs away from my band. It aint gonna happen. So don't waste time worrying about it. If you are a good performer then that will be obvious to the audience. [This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 08-15-2006).] IP: Logged
Flavie Member	posted 08-15-2006 11:04 PM Hi everyone! My wife and I are currently performing onboard one of the most exclusive cruise ships in the world. Other then our duo, the entertainment department consists also of a 4 piece show band, three professional singers and a stage manager. The show band and the singers are all highly trained professional musicians and even so, they are using click tracks to complete the sound of the band with strings, horns and many other sounds. The guests never notice that and all are very happy with the result. Personally, I use styles for the cocktail hour and half of the pre dinner set. For the dancing sets always midi files with my piano, keyboard, virtual sax and my wife�s acoustic guitar and light percussion instruments. Best regards to everyone, and thanks Uncle Dave for your input! Flav. www.fantasyband.ro IP: Logged
Caragabal Member	posted 08-15-2006 11:40 PM Well said Craig. Being a singer I totally agree with you. Cousin Ken IP: Logged
btweengigs Member	posted 08-16-2006 07:23 AM I miss Uncle Dave. Thanks for re-posting his comments Donny. Eddie IP: Logged
Dnj Member	posted 08-16-2006 07:43 AM quote: Originally posted by btweengigs: I miss Uncle Dave. Thanks for re-posting his comments Donny. Eddie Eddie ....UD is alive and well & off to other musical ventures in the teaching field....I'll see him at my wifes big 50th birthday bash this week... I'll pass along the message.... IP: Logged
Dnj Member	posted 08-16-2006 08:14 AM quote: Originally posted by Flavie: Hi everyone! My wife and I are currently performing onboard one of the most exclusive cruise ships in the world. Other then our duo, the entertainment department consists also of a 4 piece show band, three professional singers and a stage manager. The show band and the singers are all highly trained professional musicians and even so, they are using click tracks to complete the sound of the band with strings, horns and many other sounds. The guests never notice that and all are very happy with the result. Personally, I use styles for the cocktail hour and half of the pre dinner set. For the dancing sets always midi files with my piano, keyboard, virtual sax and my wife�s acoustic guitar and light percussion instruments. Best regards to everyone, and thanks Uncle Dave for your input! Flav. www.fantasyband.ro Flavie great website I enjoyed your pics & videos.....reminds me of my Cruise ship days 25 yrs ago with my 50's/60's show band I also mixed it up using an array of SMF & live for the big shows in the main room & just the arranger styles & vocals for the small cocktail rooms on ship.....great life!! After a few seasons & hurricanes I switched back to having my feet on land again Enjoy IP: Logged
captain Russ Member	posted 08-16-2006 12:48 PM Hi, Flavie...nice Taylor...been looking at that model! Russ IP: Logged
Flavie Member	posted 08-16-2006 01:33 PM Hi Dnj and Captain Russ, Thank you for your kind appreciations! Well, I guess we are getting there as well. We�ve been traveling the world together for the past 9 years and now, we feel like settling down in our new country � Canada. I am really looking forward to begin a new life that will start with the end of this contract. Good luck to all of you! Flav. IP: Logged
tony mads usa Member	posted 08-17-2006 07:07 AM quote: Originally posted by Dnj: Eddie ....UD is alive and well & off to other musical ventures in the teaching field....I'll see him at my wifes big 50th birthday bash this week... I'll pass along the message.... Donny ... Happy Birthday to your wife, and tell UD I said hi, and wish BOTH of them the very best from me ... t. IP: Logged
Dnj Member	posted 08-17-2006 07:55 AM quote: Originally posted by tony mads usa: Donny ... Happy Birthday to your wife, and tell UD I said hi, and wish BOTH of them the very best from me ... to. You got it Gumba IP: Logged
Dnj Member	posted 08-17-2006 10:09 AM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcNAC640aTc IP: Logged
T42 Member	posted 08-17-2006 10:21 AM Nice link above DNJ gave me a good laugh IP: Logged
Dnj Member	posted 08-17-2006 10:23 AM me too IP: Logged
Nobby Member	posted 08-17-2006 08:33 PM Hi I know many of you know me but I haven't been here for a long, long time. But I read where someone said they missed Uncle Dave. Isn't Uncle Dave here anymore?? Nobby IP: Logged
DonM Member	posted 08-18-2006 05:23 AM Hi Nobby! Where you been? Uncle Dave went through a quick, bad marriage and divorce, took a "real" job, but now has quit that and is playing music again, mosly in the daytime so he can have time with his kids. He's o.k., just has been very pre-occupied with other things. It's good to hear from you again. Stay in touch. DonM IP: Logged
Dnj Member	posted 08-18-2006 05:45 AM quote: Originally posted by DonM: just has been very pre-occupied with other things. DonM Lets just say that soon Dave will be sharing his musical knowledge with the masses IP: Logged
MrEd Member	posted 08-19-2006 10:14 AM quote: Originally posted by Dnj: Lets just say that soon Dave will be sharing his musical knowledge with the masses Here at the zone? That was going to be one of my xmas wishlist requests. Hope it comes early. IP: Logged
Dnj Member	posted 08-19-2006 11:03 AM No not at the SZ.......in the private sector IP: Logged
MrEd Member	posted 08-19-2006 11:11 AM quote: Originally posted by Dnj: No not at the SZ.......in the private sector Thats a bummer. I for 1, definitely miss his help, contributions, viewpoints. IP: Logged
Dnj Member	posted 08-19-2006 11:39 AM Mr Ed you can always email him IP: Logged
Vadim Member	posted 08-20-2006 01:22 PM quote: Originally posted by cgiles: If you think about it, assuming you're going for a band-type arrangement, what's the difference? YOU'RE still not doing those parts. chas If you wanna play all the parts, then it is making your own SMF, or recording yourself one by one with live instruments on multi-track recorder. anyway Guitar/Bass/Drums is the most Live/Right/Real way to play! And everyone knows that. But amongst us Keyboarders there will always be Arguments. and Guitarists and other live/real musicians, they hate both STYLES, and SMFs. so.... being a keyboardist is the "worst" in music industry. [This message has been edited by Vadim (edited 08-20-2006).] IP: Logged

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