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 HOW MANY styles do we really NEED?
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| Author | Topic: HOW MANY styles do we really NEED? |
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Scottyee Member |
posted 11-15-2002 11:37 PM
  
With all the recent discussion of a newly discovered possible hard drive solution to the hard disk-less Yamaha PSR2000, several people have asked how I ever managed gigging without one, thinking I must be constantly having to juggle scores of floppy diskettes while performing. Believe it or not, this isn't true. I actually only need to take 2 floppy disks with me when performing. How?! Because I've found most of the PSR2000's 'internal' styles suitable for most all of my material. In addition, all my frequently used custom USER styles (approx 20 styles) reside in USER flash Memory. My personalized MusicFinder database of my song repetoire (of over 495 songs) actually utilizies internal & USER flash memory styles ONLY. Though I've downloaded and collected as many PSR format styles as many other people here: hundreds?, or perhaps even a thousand IP: Logged |
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Dreamer Member |
posted 11-15-2002 11:47 PM
Scott, here is my humble opinion: we don't need many styles, but we do need good ones. Give me ten good 8 and 16 beat, ten good latin styles and ten good swing styles and I am set for the rest of my life. Like you, I have scores of styles I have never used and never will. IP: Logged |
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Graham UK Member |
posted 11-16-2002 12:15 AM
Andrea...SD1007 has no time because his time is taken up sorting through all those styles...HA!!!! I agree with Andrea & Scot also. Its not the quantity of styles but the quality that counts. Since owning the 9000Pro and adding some of the CVP styles. These cover most of my playing requirements. Graham UK IP: Logged |
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Uncle Dave Member |
posted 11-16-2002 12:25 AM
I could live with 8 basic styles all night. I set up that "EZ eight" bank in the PA80 and it's my "Go to" styles. Given that I play lots of manual bass lines, the styles are not repetetive, and they cover 95% of what I play. The 8 staples are: 1)8/16 beat (works for ballads and rock) The first beat is actually a DUAL beat by using the multi pads. I press one button to turn OFF/ON the latin persussion that turns the 8 beat into a 16. Two patterns in the space of one ! IP: Logged |
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DannyUK Member |
posted 11-16-2002 03:12 AM
Interesting subject. I have to agree with both Scott and UD. For my X1, i must have about 2000 styles, and for the GEM i must have even more. First off, ive always thought that converted styles sound awful, for example in my X1, any Yamaha, Technics or Roland styles sound terrible, they just dont sound right. However, the Korg styles sound OK and some are even usable. But nothing beats the quality of an "own brand" style for that keyboard, especially styles made by the company themselves. If anyone has a PA60/80 they should immediately download the styles from the official site because some of them are absolutely fantastic. Ive stored many of them in the USER banks. What i like about the PA keyboard is the range of different type styles, where as sometimes although a kb has 300 odd styles, many of them can sound very similar. The Korg is probably has the best selection of different styles in one given bank. This makes a difference because you do not need to search for alternative styles if the internal styles do not suite the songs you play. Unfortunately, i struggled with the WK6 because the internal styles for me were not very useful so obtaining many user styles was required, where as the X1 has some fantastic styles already so no need for user styles there. It does vary really on arrangements, but i was surprised with the WK6 after coming from the WX2 which had fantastic styles. IP: Logged |
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trtjazz Member |
posted 11-16-2002 03:32 AM
Well Fellas, My perspective is a bit different. I understand where you guys are coming from, but for me I do need and use as many styles as I can lay hands on.....in given genres. Because all my work is original compositions and because of the volume I have done if I did not have many many styles to choose from, everything starts to sound the same. So, I have to disect styles, use pieces parts mix and match all the time, otherwise it gets stale. So the more the better for me even if they are just slight variations on a theme. [This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 11-16-2002).] IP: Logged |
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Mart Weeho Member |
posted 11-16-2002 04:25 AM
Hi you all, Converted styles can be just as good as the IP: Logged |
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Bluezplayer Member |
posted 11-16-2002 04:41 AM
For live play I have all the styles I'll ever need and then some right inside the PA80. I have replaced about 40 % of the internal styles with varied user styles. I'll only use a fraction of the styles inside of the machine for live play and the only reason I ever need any floppy disks is to be able to load midifiles into the PA80. I don't need the hard drive at all. The one thing I will say about floppies is that I always have a duplicate disk available when I go. I find floppies to be less than 100% reliable. When I bring the Motif along for the ride I am able to store the midifiles on a smart media card. I have yet to have one of them fail me, but I still bring a backup SM card as well. On the other hand, I agree with Terry too. From the composer's standpoint there are never going to be enough styles, particularly for a composer like him who produces the volume of quality songs that he has made. AJ [This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 11-16-2002).] IP: Logged |
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ChicoBrasil Member |
posted 11-16-2002 09:28 AM
The Yamaha style database in the computer has 4.236 files. I need 30 of them in addition of the internal 9000Pro styles . I am looking for quality, no quantity. Chico IP: Logged |
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Eric, B Member |
posted 11-16-2002 10:50 AM
I'm with Chico on the quality issue, but I'm with Mart on th quantity issue  I like to sound different too, especially with the type of music I do: Dance, Pop, Disco, Rock, Ballads etc, otherwise it sounds to monotone after a while. Currently I'm using about a 100-150 styles. Eric IP: Logged |
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Uncle Dave Member |
posted 11-16-2002 11:59 AM
quote: This is why I sometimes say that it's better to play more manual parts and sequences of particular songs. The "generic" flavor of styles HAS to get boring after a while ..... no one plays the same exact succession of notes every night, every song. I'm a firm believer that arrangers can be overused at times, so I make a practice of shutting it off alot. There is no need for a 12 piece band on every song .... in fact, it's overkill in many situations. Last night I had the arranger off for almost two hours. I was playing swing tunes, latins, pop/rock and broadway stuff.... all with manual bass and piano. It's more interresting for ME, and more diverse for my audience. The times when I turn the auto guys on just adds to the total package. IP: Logged |
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ChicoBrasil Member |
posted 11-16-2002 12:29 PM
This is the reason of my option to Yamaha Kbs. I like to perform always with the same voices and the same yamie not complicated styles ; so, my personnal performance goes to create my trade mark . If I play complicated styles with specific intros, fills and endings, the trade mark goes to the kbd and NOT for me. Chico IP: Logged |
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Pilot Member |
posted 11-16-2002 12:37 PM
I could use more styles but at the expense of the ones I'll never use. The PSR-740 has 160 styles and three user styles. It would have been better to have 3 styles and 160 user styles so you could load the ones you want, which in my case is swing, jazz and ballroom. I will say this though. If you speed up or slow down some of the other styles quite drastically you can find a lot of hidden treasures. IP: Logged |
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Big Red Member |
posted 11-16-2002 05:16 PM
Like UD, I don't really have to go outside of the internal styles in my i30 (basically the same style set as the PA80). And I'm sure that Uncle Dave will agree that it's the eight and sixteen-bar loops in a lot of korg styles that make the styles themselves interesting. That's always been my biggest disappointment with Yamaha, those boring 4-bar loops. IP: Logged |
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trtjazz Member |
posted 11-16-2002 07:17 PM
Red, The Tyros has 32 bar loops in it. Terry IP: Logged |
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Scottyee Member |
posted 11-16-2002 07:42 PM
quote: Pilot, I concur. The Korg PA80 allows you to WRITE OVER the factory styles with your own custom styles. I WISH the other arranger manufacterers would follow suit. IP: Logged |
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MarcK Member |
posted 11-16-2002 08:11 PM
Personally I find that quality wins over quantity when it comes to styles. Compare this discussion to the one about sounds. IP: Logged |
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Bluezplayer Member |
posted 11-16-2002 08:13 PM
It's one of the things about the PA80 that I like best Scott. Then they go and mess it all up by giving us only two fills for four variation styles. Go figure. Still, in spite of that "flaw" ( and a couple of lesser ones ), and even with the advent of newer models from other manufacturers, this is among the features that the PA80 has that the other models don't, so I'm not willing to trade it in for any of the other current models. The other main feature that makes me want to keep it is the voice / patch editing power, so far unmatched by any of the other models I've tried. AJ IP: Logged |
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Scottyee Member |
posted 11-16-2002 08:22 PM
Hi AJ: If Korg would implement jazz pianist type 'rootless' chord recognition as Technics, Yamaha, and Ketron have, then I might have given the PA80 some serious consideration. Perhaps in a later reincarnation. I wonder if anyone at Korg is listening.  IP: Logged |
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Bob Gelman Member |
posted 11-16-2002 09:01 PM
I'd venture to surmise that I've got more styles than anyone else. Big deal! I've been collecting them for many years, using ones I've acquired to get new ones. One benefit of this activity, aside from fulfilling what has now obviously become a collection compusion, is that I've been able to make many thousands of styles available to the PSR user community thru styles conversions. I really enjoy playing new styles. I record "live" playing along with them as I listen to them on each original audition. This gives me the feeling of playing along with a "live" band as I'm never quite sure what "the other guys" are going to be playing Yes, if I were doing live gigs for an audience I'd certainly cull these many thousands of styles down to a very practiced few that are superior. As things stand I'll never get to play all the styles I have as new ones keep arriving before I've tried all the ones I already have. Cheers, Bob IP: Logged |
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Bluezplayer Member |
posted 11-16-2002 09:14 PM
Well Scott, my experience with Korg has been that they respond very well sometimes, and at other times not so well. No worse than the other major companies I suspect though. Hey we could bug 'em about it and see what happens, because if they come up with a successor to the PA80 and it includes the features I spoke of in my last post ( and better style fills ), it's a pretty good bet that I will get one. Now you're talking Bob. I like doing the same thing ( not when playing live of course ). I don't have a Yamaha board anymore, but I have XG works which alows creation via chords and Yamaha styles in step time, and I have most of the conversions available for the PA80. It's pretty cool to be able to mix and match parts from different styles. It's a breeze to do in the PA80, and in XG works too. Add a cool drum part made by Jammer pro or a "handmade" drum piece from a hybrid tracker program like Midi tracker or Pump sequencer and I have a lot of options when creating stuff to play to. AJ IP: Logged |
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Uncle Dave Member |
posted 11-16-2002 11:45 PM
quote: You know, those long loops can actually work AGAINST you too. I transfered a Korg pattern called "Dorian" from the earlier "i" series. This is a very cool, swing pattern with a beautiful walking bass line. It rivals my own, and has become one of my favorite patterns, however it's an 8 bar loop. This makes it all "out of whack" when I do a blues number that is written in 12 bar sections. There is an obvious "strangeness" in the pattern when it is 4 bars off. I love the pattern, but this is driving me a little batty ! The resetbutton can bring the downbeat back to "1", but it won't reset the pattern to the 1st bar of the loop ...it just deals with the measure at hand. IP: Logged |
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Sander Member |
posted 11-17-2002 01:27 PM
 Interesting topic.I own a Roland VA-7 and I am not always satisfied with the styles. Therefore I have to make my own styles sometimes which do not sound perfect most of the time, but make a song more realistic. It's the only way not to 'cheat' (using a SMF for instance is 'fake' in my opinion). A lot of styles that came with the VA-7 were too specific and then we had a way to long ending and sometimes also the same useless length on the intro. Then I found some converted styles (X1 to G1000) and loaded them into my keyboard. That was a pretty good and very welcome addition! It adjusted the balance a bit, unfortunately not everything was sounding that good, when talking about the styles (I left the 'old' styles on this issue). As you may have noticed, I'm very critical about this issue, because I think that styles are very very important. I just can't play my entire repetoire with about 20 styles. IP: Logged |
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Brian Johnson Junior Member |
posted 11-18-2002 04:57 AM
Yes, there are too many styles! I find many of them have distortion, sour notes and incorrect instrument assignments. I have tried messing with them , in the past but it seems that there are so many good ones, why waste time trying to upright a deraile style. I've decided to try to stick to only styles created for Yamaha keyboards with 4 variations. I make up floppies for each stylr type, eg 'Boogie', 'Swing', 'Rock' etc. Then as I'm travelling through a music book, if I find a style that suits a song very well, I rename the style to that song. I also write at the top of the page, in the book, what the name and location of the style is, either internal, user or floppy. Eventually I will create a floppy(s) dedicated to each song book. There can be more than one style that is approprate for a particular song. So as I get out a song book to play from, I merely have to plug in the appropriate style disk and I can travel through the entire book without interuption. Of course I would still audition any new styles and try to fit them in, if they are usable. Any thoughts? Brian IP: Logged |
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Dreamer Member |
posted 11-18-2002 05:23 AM
Brian, that's an excellent habit you have! I too write at the top of the page (in my music-books) the best styles for each song. Another thing you could do, if you have a keyboard with an internal storage device (hard disk, zip disk) is to save a registration for each song, with the appropriate style, tempo and instruments. That's even faster! [This message has been edited by Dreamer (edited 11-18-2002).] IP: Logged |
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Dreamer Member |
posted 11-18-2002 05:24 AM
Sander, where have you been? It's great to see you posting again! How is your right arm going? IP: Logged |
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rhumba Member |
posted 11-18-2002 05:34 AM
True! I don't need that many styles either. I think the reason arranger maker make all those styles is to cater to the general masses. Maybe what they can do is selling an arranger with no style for less $$$ and then users will purchase only the style they needed ??? At the close of my last few outings, I had the same thought about how the number of styles I actually used = not much! ..rb
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svpworld Member |
posted 11-18-2002 05:50 AM
I also agree that quality, and not quantity is the most important factor for me. There is a glut of poor quality conversions now available for the yamaha keyboards, most of which are harmonically incorrect and will not give proper results when playing anything other than a simple major or minor chord. However I also have to criticise many of the preset styles as being too fussy and too indicative of particular songs. Remember the old days when all we had was a rock, swing, march, pops and bossa? It was easy to play almost anything to those simply bass/chord and drum patterns. Nowadays you sit daydreaming after the intro has played, totally lost for what to play with some of these styles! They sound fantastic, expertly musically programmed by the yamaha musicians but quite often it leaves you having to think so carefully about what to play. Its a good idea to experiment with turning off parts of the style, i often like to mute the pads, phrases and separate chord sections and just use a simpler backing. Perhaps thats what we need, more simpler styles! Simon ------------------ IP: Logged |
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Mart Weeho Member |
posted 11-18-2002 09:37 AM
To have a big quantity of styles does not necesarely mean that they are of low quality. It depends on youre own editcapalities. I think most of you could have a big quantity with high quality when you took more time for editing your own styles. As an example you can place a guitarstrum- track or guitarharmonicstrack beside a guitar track when you want the guitar sounds better. At least on a VA7/76. IP: Logged |
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Sander Member |
posted 11-18-2002 12:26 PM
quote: [offtopic] Doing very well, great to see you again. It's been a long time since I have been here, true. The right arm is doing great again, except the fact that when I have played for a while, my elbow is making a 'click' sound when I stretch my arm again. But besides that, everything allright! I hope you are doing well too over there in Italy, just like the others around here About the quality/quantity issue; of course quality is very very important. But if the styles do not suit, than I need to find another style and 'abandon' that other style. The Style Morpher is a great feature, but not usable on every style. I'm always focussing on the 'Realistic' part and good quality (for use in Gig's). Once it sounds well, I save it (like Andrea explained Maybe this opinion is a little bit too strong, but I hope some of you understand. [This message has been edited by Sander (edited 11-18-2002).] IP: Logged |
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hellboy44 Member |
posted 11-04-2003 07:28 PM
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hellboy44 Member |
posted 11-04-2003 07:39 PM
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Dnj Member |
posted 11-04-2003 07:45 PM
Sandler, Please post some of your tunes...we'd love to hear them on your VA . IP: Logged |
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sk880user Member |
posted 11-05-2003 08:17 AM
I need tons of excellent ballads. IP: Logged |
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J. Larry Member |
posted 11-05-2003 08:54 AM
I've owned a ton of arranger boards over the years. At the moment I'm taken with Yamaha and am on an "old" country kick. Even tho' the 2100 has styles that approximate what's heard on recordings, I still can't find authentic-sounding older country styles, such as walking bass line, droning steel guitar, fiddle licks, Kramer piano fills, etc... And where do programmers get their "style" ideas anyway? Do they study the air waves to see what's being played? Have most of the them played in live bands, so that they have a sense of what each instrument does within a given style? Just wonderin'. IP: Logged |
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Bluezplayer Member |
posted 11-05-2003 10:07 AM
I don't know the answers for sure J. but, in the case of the PA80, some of the styles are very song specific. For example the rythym blues style plays the exact notes from the song "Soul man". You really notice it on the intro's and endings. Oddly enough, this is a preset style. Korg released a bunch of extra user styles after the PA80 came out, and many of these were so song specific that they only work well for that one song. Even the preset open rock 2, is geared directly at "Brown Sugar", although it will work pretty well for Free's "Allright now". Perhaps the country styles gravitate more toward modern country. I'm not sure because I don't play very much country. The rock, blues, jazz, and soul styles seem to gravitate more toward the "classsics" ( ie. older tunes ). This can work well for a lot of the entertainers ( including myself when I occasionally wear that hat ), but doesn't necessarily give me a lot to work with if I want to "scratch pad" an original idea on the arranger. So I'm guessing that the programmers look more at what has been popular rather than looking toward current and modern beats. At least it seems that way. On the Motif ES, when I listen to a lot of the arp and drum patterns, I get a sense that the phrases are geared more toward modern music. There is a good representation of what was happening in the past, but also a large portion of typical beats and grooves found in current music. AJ [This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 11-05-2003).] IP: Logged |
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, I rarely (if ever) use them when performing. As a result, I only take (to the gig) a floppy diskette dedicated to Memory Registrations files for specific custom songs & song medleys which require multiple registration setups. At only 10kb per file, a 1.4 MB floppy diskette can hold MANY MANY Songs (Memory Reg Banks). This floppy also holds my 'song specific' custom style files as well. The only other floppy diskette I take to the gig is a diskette full of midi song files. I've actually increasingly been using this less and less , preferring to do perform EVERYTHING live in auto-accomp. mode instead. As much as I'd still appreciate & prefer that the PSR2000 had a hard drive, floppy disk management hasn't been really much of a deal for me. The function of the styles (for me) are only to act as window dressing to enhance your performance, but not to distract from your live work. Even if we hired the BEST live (w/ real musicians) backup bands in the world, I doubt very many bands could pull off playing 'off the top of their hat' the diversity of stock styles included in our arranger keyboards. I've spent more than my share of time in the past composing, & customizng styles, but have realized that it's much more pleasureable & rewarding (at least for me) to spend MORE time making music by PLAYING & improving my chops, and utilizing the PSR2000's many decent sounding internal styles. Ok, these were just my thoughts. I apologize if I came off preachy. Take from it what you want and ignore the rest. Anyway, I'd be interested in hearing how others feel about this issue of course. Happy keyboarding. - Scott 
It is also lots of fun and a bit challenging. 
Kind regards,