pax5 vs genos

now that Korg have the pax5 with fantastic sounds and styles, but not so good in drums and bass guitar, i think that yamaha should raise the bar with new system and new pack of sounds and styles to Genos and his little brotheres or some of us will move from Genos to Pax5
what do you think?

Problem with most comparisons is that technology advances, just a the comparisons between the Pa4x and Genos. Pa4x used older technology than Genos.

And as I’ve said before what percentage of an Arranger keyboard gets used before moving on to the next great arranger keyboard. How many styles, sounds effects never actually get used.

The game changer with the new Korg is the ability to simultaneously play two different styles, along with the ability to turn on and off individual Parts in each one.

If you think about it, that basically ups your available styles by several orders of magnitude as you mix and match on the fly.

The demos of this feature have been a bit lackluster in my opinion, as few of the demonstrators did much more than select two full styles and mix them together. But the REAL power of this system lies in selecting two styles, then muting certain Parts in each of them, so you get say bass, percussion and electric guitars from one, and the drums, horns and piano from another…

Even with say only a half dozen styles of a very similar groove, that’s hundreds of possibilities all sounding a bit different.

I don’t know the full details of the system yet, but for people that use the arranger section much, you just got gifted thousands (potentially) of new styles. Most arrangers have in the past been able to do this by laboriously importing Divisions from other styles into one ‘Frankenstyle’ in the style editor. But the process was cumbersome and slow, and you couldn’t audition it until you’d done the work.

But this system is so easy to work, no more excuses!

I do think there are a few OS niggles about the system, though. Primarily, you need two hands to start both styles at the same time. This is ridiculous! When would you NOT want both styles in sync??? 🙄 And okay, if on the odd occasion you did, wouldn’t THAT be the function you used two hands for?

Also, so far I haven’t seen if there’s any control over which style’s Intro/outro/fills play. Your odds of finding two styles where they match is slim to none! Some way of prioritizing one or the other is essential.

To be honest, I am a little confused that the two style system hasn’t set the arranger world on fire! 🔥 It is a complete game changer for the arranger world, and opens up exponential growth in available styles. And, as this OP shows, it seems that style fatigue sets in pretty quickly no matter how many you provide! Given that you can create doxens of new styles just by mixing and matching the Parts from two styles and two sets of multipads, style fatigue should be a thing of the past…

Hi.

For those who are interested, there is a Yamaha Genos VS Korg PA5X sounds and styles comparison at A&C Hamilton's YT channel.
(Found the info at Korg PA5X Forum)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlSj0jwU5CU

Yes, that sounds very interesting. I know in Latin music, there are all sort hybrid rhythmic styles, for example mixers of cumbia and reggaetón has become popular, yet I can't find any Yamaha keyboard styles that have this mixture.

I'm hoping someone can post a video of this feature!

Korg always had a better sound & style editing possibilities and now with the newer computer inside there are a lot new thing you expect of a 2022 keyboard , Usb3, Hdmi , large memory , fast hd screen and a lot more improvements , as a Genos player i hope Yamaha wil also use a better and newer processor and al new state of the art technology in stead of the older they now use in the Genos , I will stay at the
Yamaha top arranger , i have made , bought and modified the past 5 years a lot of styles and registrations ( ±800) that are a lot of hours work ( there wasnt a conversion program from the Tyros 5) like there was on earlier Tyros models , despite that it was worth all the effort , Genos is very easy to work with ) if you read the manual and reference guide first.
I hope Yamaha takes a good look at the PA5 'i love the case and size' and looking forward to get the Genos 2 in 2023

Soneg

I love the optimism

Hi.
Here is a informative and interesting video, especially when it comes to styles, and 'endless' possibilities:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NmeXzieR4U

TOTL arrangers such as Genos and Korg in the same rack must be a heavenly mix. In fact, I'm very tempted......

Btw,
I did a request about PA5X at a big European Webstore, and according to this it looks like we have really good time to look at videos at YT and elsewhere.
If they have missed a bit when order into the store, or the backorders for customers are real huge, I don't know.
Quote reply:
"Korg PA-5X 76 International Entertainer Keyboard is expected to come in by the supplier on 05.06.2023 (this based on current backorders)

Both TOTL offerings from Korg and Yamaha come with some unique features that are incredibly useful, hopefully they don’t wait another ten+ years before they become commonplace!

Of particular interest on the Yammie side is that amazing 8 part chord sequencer, the divisi voicing capabilities of Ensemble Mode, the pedal steel ability to bend the third inside the chord (or is it the top note? Still not 100% sure how that works) and of course (although the PA5x has caught up a bit) those 28 freely assignable effects inserts. Stackable inserts is incredibly useful when you have enough of them (think phaser into tape echo into tube amp sim into cabinet sim on guitars!).

I’m reading a laundry list of bugs over at Korgforums, which is probably to be e expected on a brand new OS, and some definitely puzzling omissions (no more making styles from full SMF’s, no more Karma, no more EC5 foot pedal input e.g.) but doubtless the bugs will eventually be fixed (mostly!) but more troubling is the omissions. If there’s one thing Yamaha do well it’s building on products without losing much along the way.

As to running two arrangers in sync, my views on this are well known. Until the main players get together and start to standardize the MIDI codes for general arranger operation, stuff like bass inversion codes, variation and fill selection, etc., trying to do anything more than use one arranger’s sounds as lead while the other plays the style is problematic for even the most technical of users. Yammie are still using sysex to do stuff that Korg (and most others) do with PC/CC codes, hugely complicating running two in tandem.

This is why I find Korg’s simultaneous running of two separate styles so exciting, as it was a technological nightmare to do it with two separate arrangers of different brands…

Dear friends,

I have wrote an actual article of my personal and biggest wishes list for new generation of the Genos. I hope my option will be useful for you.

Here my article about new Genos2: https://psrstyles.com/our-blog/yamaha-keyboard-news/43-yamaha-genos-2-coming.html

If you have your own option, you can take a comment on this forum or in the article page.

Thank you So much

1) FAVOURITES: When you allocate a new "favourite" voice or style - you automatically get reset to page 1 of that category... very annoying why cant it just keep you on the current page you were on? - so for example if the voice you select as a favourite is on page 6 - u then get reset to page 1 so u need to remember what page it was on and navigate back to the page to re select the voice or continue on searching through the voices...

2) STEP EDITOR (Style and Midi Song): in the step editor We should be able to do a "select all" instead of having to do "Multi Select" and keep pressing (or hold) the arrow buttons to scroll down and select more than one event.

3) STEP EDITOR (style and Midi Song): We should be able to do a granular "select all" where we can select all of a certain note only for example: I want to select every note that is above the C0 range or only all C0 notes to make edits to them such as volume or velocity... currently you need to manually press each one individually as you scroll down the list of events

4) Drum Edit: any of the drum track channels in a Midi song should be fully editable down to each individual sample being played in the drum track (individual note volume, velocity, reverb, re voicing etc) (without manually scrolling and doing it through the step editor)... Roland has had this in their style and song "make up tools" for about 20+ years?

5) STYLE SETTING / STOP ACCOMP: when this is set to "FIXED" This feature allows us to have a bass note that is played when pressing chords on the left hand while the style player is off. However, we have no control over changing / re voicing the bass note nor can we make any adjustments such as the volume or octave tuning of this bass note.

When STOP ACCOMP is set to "STYLE" it allows us to use the bass note in the style that is selected - so we CAN re voice and adjust the volume BUT obviously it then effects / changes the bass note of the style once you hit the start/stop button... and again no octave shifting without going into the Style Composer...

6) MIXER is missing the Octave up/down for each of the 8 style parts (im talking about doing this on the fly in the mixer without having to go into the Style composer)

Overall there is way too much compression on all the samples including the drum kits on this keyboard. Those at Yamaha know exactly what I mean - anyone who has played or owns a Yamaha Synth such as a Motif / MODX / Montage will also know.

Hi Nick G,

the mentioned disadvantages of Genos exist. I hope Yamaha will fix them on the new model.
Do you want to make a list of defects/irregularities on the PA5x or should I copy them from a relevant forum?

Hi Leon,

The PA5X one would probably be a book I have been keep track of the PA5x issues.

The above items I have listed forthe Genos / PSR SX are not really defects except for the 1st one regarding the favourites. The rest are all just simple features that really should be there for quality of life and customisation.

I can’t repeat this enough… especially as Roland have basically abandoned the arranger market and don’t seem to have made a fuss about the chord sequencer having been copied wholesale (and improved!), every arranger manufacturer needs to copy Roland’s Makeup Tools lock stock and barrel.

It is BY FAR the easiest, simplest, yet most powerful style and SMF header editing system ever devised. It actually makes editing styles almost a pleasure!

Diki - you could probably read between the lines of what I was saying SHOULD be in the next line of arrangers from Yamaha as an absolute minimum :-) Korg comes close but still not on par with the Roland Make up tools...

Hi Nick
I agree, a lot could be improved on Yamaha's arrangers. But the topic title leads us to a comparison with the PA5x. I think such a comparison will only be possible when Korg fixes everything it messed up in the new model.

When comparing or reviewing newly released instruments, one thing that is rarely mentioned is, 'will it make me a better player?'. I think that should be just behind 'will it make my performance SOUND better' (a different question). Assuming that most musicians want to become better players, then the question really is, 'how much will the new features improve my PLAYING ability (compared to what I'm playing now OR new-to-me features on a different manufacturer's instrument. ALSO....how much (if ever) will I actually USE th0se whiz-bang features that I'd be paying so dearly for? Just thinking aloud.

chas (programming, style creation/modification, sound designing, etc., 1%; playing, 89%; daydreaming/daytime napping, 10%)

I haven’t done any work on a Yamaha but have read manuals. But I have worked on editing a PA3X & PA4X. The biggest problem I found with the Korg’s is, if you want to do some simple editing on a drum sound, bring up it’s velocity for instance, you actually have to go in and do it separately for not only each Division (Variation, fill etc) but also for each chord type (maj, min, 7ths) of each of those Divisions. So, 4 variations, four fills, three intros, three endings, times three chord types!

A command that Roland does in one go needs to be repeated 42 times! Now yes, you can do a clunky workaround where you edit the ROM drum kit and save as a user drum kit, but now you are faced with a bewildering number of edited kits, as each edited style needs its own, using up your limited slots and making data management a nightmare.

And heaven help you because that’s the way it works on non drum sounds too..!

There’s a REASON why so few of us spend much time customizing our styles and sequences. It’s just too much bother… Except for Roland users.

Chas, I think that, if the whiz bang features inspire you to spend more time sitting at the instrument, becoming a better player comes automatically with that. And if the features make what you ALREADY play sound better, that becomes the reason to sit and play for maybe an hour a day when it used to be ten minutes a day, or whatever.

Seat time, as any racer will tell you, always ends up being better lap times..!

Also, enough seat time behind a new arranger usually ends up with a curiosity about whether any unused features can help you sound and play even better. It’s a feedback loop. Stagnation is the enemy. Some people have enough drive to just sit and put an hour or two into excersizes (and by that I don’t really mean just scales and arpeggios, but anything that improves your performance like mastering bending lead solos, or working on chord voicing for guitars, strings, horns, whatever) with the gear they already have. But others do better when the inspiration of a new whiz bang arranger graces their music room.

Whatever it takes!

The only way a new arranger won’t make you a better player is if you don’t play it!