How much do you strip down out of a style?

How much do you strip down out of a style? I'm always hearing that arranger kb players strip down their styles alot because they are so called Too busy?....whats the sense..defeating the purpose.....there's 4 variations to change if needed also to make an arrangement..
secondly I see many players use only PIANO 95% of the time also?
with all the sounds onboard can I just ask why?
And third using 8 registrations for ONE SONG?
That I'll never understand?...

Thoughts?

ok I'll duck now rant over....

It depends on so many factors, but simply put, I may find a style that has the bass and drum rhythm I want, but has horn or whatever that I don't want ... in this case I might strip out the horns and add a guitar strum using a pad ...
Just one scenario ...

A song like Mack the Knife needs to build and change keys so I use more than 1 registration. Bobby Darin starts laid back --- by the end he is really pushing.

One registration is enough for most songs.
John C.

why not just go up
thru the variations & use the transpose button for that song?

Why not just learn all the chords?

I usually just go through the variations as the song progresses, often returning the more subtle variation A toward the end. I sometimes play my own intros and endings as well, it all depends on the song.

Using 8 registrations per song (one bank) allows the player to quickly scroll through all the songs, title by title in Alphabetical order. I song per registration, saved in a bank of 8 songs, and using a particular genre per bank allows the player to select from the genre, however the disadvantage is that the player must remember which song is located in each bank, which can be somewhat confusing. Lets say you were looking for a country song, and you had 8 Country banks, each containing 8 songs. Where would you look for Blue Eyes Crying In The Rain, which bank would hold it? Gotta have a great memory for that method.

As for the right hand instrument, well that's an individual preference. Some songs sound better with a piano, some demand a soft sax, while another would require a growl sax or maybe a trombone. Most of the time, the OTS settings provide me with the best instrument for a particular song, but not always. That's when I go to my custom voices which are saved in the User Voice section. One push of a button and I have 10 new, custom voices at my fingertips.

It all depends upon what you want to achieve with each song, and what your audiences respond best to,

Gary

Is that the same with memorizing the music & lyrics?

It depends.... If you want a more realistic live sound, that fulfills the realistic expectation of a full band, trio etc.

Weeded out the parts of a canned style, and maintain the same instruments within the band...
As an example using your 95% piano.....the piano plays 95% of the time...So does the bass player and drummer...(and keep the same bass and drumkit.... no one changes off in a single song if ever..

Nothing screams fake more than a busy style and bunch of instruments..

Like I said .. it depends ....on the player.

BTW: listen to any quality commercial CD...count the instruments you hear.... no way near what we get with overdone styles..

If and when I use a style it will maintain the same band members , not just for the song , but the entire gig.

Bass , drums, piano (EP), guitar, maybe a color sound like a sax..

And none of my guys are going to overplay... They each have a job to do.... just do it..

No ... There are far more lyrics and melodies ...

Fran’s analysis is right on the money. Often, less is more. At present, I’m playing a Yamaha. I’d love to use some of the big band styles. However, they just don’t fit a quiet dinner party. The brass riffs, intros and endings will blow people away, in a negative way. So, paring down the style parts is necessary, at least for me. That’s why on guitar gigs, I use Band In A Box, for its small combo simplicity.

It depends on what sound you want to archieve..

For a live sound... Rock and Ballads..
I stick to drum, Base and a guitar..
And then play the keyparts on top of that..


But when playing Jazzy, there is 2 choices, go for the whole swing band, or just a small jazz combo...
Both give very different results for the same song... Where i love the bigband to sound all out, i prefer the jazz combo small, maybe even just drums and Bass..


Its the power of an arranger to create a backing that suits your needs..
The good thing about to busy styles, is that you can mostly easilly strip them down
But if you have a very basic style, it takes more work to get that a little busier..

I think this is what Yamaha styles really do well
In general they are quite busy..
But stripping them down often gives the wanted result.


I also think Ketron is best for edditing the styles to your liking,
with their style modeling. Especially if you want to make a style busier
Its much easier to archive that with the way style modeling is set up.

Very often I'm down to Drums Bass then add a Guitar Multi-Pad.
Play EP or Piano over the top....works well.

Years ago the organ players moved through a song while making many changes; it was an art in itself. Then came the use if registrations – they allowed the player to put more of himself into his performance.

The import word is speed. Sure I could hit the transpose button, and I do know the chords, but why not include them in the registration allowing all my concentration to stay with the song.

When I listen to a god live band the volumes and instrumentation changes. The trumpets, saxes, and trombones do not continue to blast – they back off, they stop playing or lower their volume. Back to Mack the knife example. If enough changes are not made for the repetitive five choruses the song goes nowhere; the same for a song called Love. If I am going to press a registration to change the volumes and the instrumentation, why not include transposing or anything I might want???

I also include a tempo change – yes a tempo change, 145 at the beginning – to 148 towards the end – it adds more excitement. I would never do that to Latin music or a waltz or a disco.

I do not want to lose dancers or listeners – nor do I want anything to take away from my concentration on my singing.

I use only one registration for Five Foot Two. (smile)
Just saying, John C.

I too often take out some of the horn riffs on the big band stuff. Those riffs can get very repetitive and get in the way of the melody/vocal.

For those of us that rely on our vocal abilities, less is always better - there's no disputing this. For those who cannot sing, they tend to need more in order to fill out that song to it's fullest potential. Of course, there are times, such as performances during dinner parties or light music at restaurants, then the less rule comes into play as well.

Good luck,

Gary

Before I could write my own response others have covered all the bases perfectly especially Fran. Nice to know so many of us think along the same lines. Less is more. KISS !

Its already been said, but I dont always like big arrangements. Much prefer playing with just audio guitars ,bass and audio drums. very rarely do I use a full arangement. Normaly have a left hand pad over the top, maybe a wurlitzer ep/rhodes or hammond.

What amazes me about this thread is the fact that when a new KB comes out, everyone is ga-ga over the new styles ... we see post after post after post accompanied by all the ooohs and aaaahs about how great this style, that style, and all these styles sound, and yet all I'm reading here is how people take those great styles and strip them down ...

I also agree with Fran, with styles and midi files, I generally change the bass and drum parts to parts that I use most, and almost always, I'll remove or change string parts - I think, in most (not all) cases, it sounds a little odd for a single act to have a full string section behind him.

I can see how this works pretty nice om stage... actually with an instrument like the Genos its almost a must to work this way...

But as a home player, i do prefer to change things on the fly, quickly as i play a new song, just choosing a new keyboardset on the fly.. its funny that i think the Korg is more suited for on. The fly changes then The Genos. Even tough many people deem the Korg more oriented at pro players where the yamaha is more oriented at home players...

I also love how the Ketron touchscreen interface handles this, its easy to choose new 3/4 layer sounds......

Seems to me that Yamaha is mostly relying on the performance memmories, altough i must admit, their implementation is pretty much brilliant... when playing a T5, it felt natural to make performance memmories for everything...

On the Pa4x, i make a single songbook entry for my edited style, and work from there using direct acces to the keyboardsets... the direct access is golden... altough on the T5 i had a huge amount of performances saving just the righthand sounds i loved...

Mybe on the Genos things got better, don’t know if you can make a direct access button that takes you directly to your map where you saved all your just sound performances...

NUFF SAID Tony great post!

I would never rave over heavily arranged styles. But....they have their place - for instance big band and swing (if thats your thing) But generally, unless your trying to emulate an orchestra or big band most music recorded in the past 50 years can be covered by a group of 4 or 5 musicians; Lead and rhythm guitar, bass, drums and keys - thats the sound I prefer which is why a stripped back sound is for me 9 times out of 10.

The great thing about a good arranger is they can do both and with the quick touch of a slider you have an unplugged or stripped back natural style.

Hi Donnie:

My arranger is not used for performing in public like most of the talented folks here. Being a songwriter, I'll use the instruments (Yamaha calls them voices) needed for the sound of the song being created and/or demonstrated in an eventual MP3 file. I write in several genres and some need more instruments or even an orchestra... while others, considerably less. One of my pet peeves with Yamaha styles... they don't seem to understand the need for a flat-top guitar, a lap-steel or dobro for country and country rock genres.

Everything else about Arranger KB's is nothing but positive in my opinion. Being able to prepare a demo of an original song is a Godsend and Arrangers are the best kept secret in most of the songwriting world.

Happy New Year, ----Dave Rice

Dave I hear you loud and clear.....if I was a song writer id use the arranger for a first rough, as tsyles really help in that regard,....then from there once I get the song idea on paper I would definitely multitrack & record EACH part of the song from scratch into a DAW so I could get EXACTLY the sound & fx etc,. that I wanted vs just a repetitive style, then bring it to the studio musicians to fine tune it for a master demo, etc,.....hope that makes sense.

I don't know where I learnt it but some time back I was taught that the human was only really capable of hearing two things at once. In the case of the piano trio we really only hear the piano and bass and feel the drums. As we add more voices to the arrangement more of the original parts move from being heard to being felt. Starting off with 5-6-7-8 different things, all at once and all of equal importance is going to lead to tonal confusion. Just hitting the audience with a packed, canned backup style and the melody is never going to have the effect of a carefully arranged piece in all of its parts.

Hi again, Donnie:

Makes sense to me... except for the problem of having sufficient funds to pay for all those studio musicians. Songwriting has never been more competitive and less rewarding... and all the while, the customer base is shrinking unless one is into RAP.

Greetings ekurburski:

Welcome to the General Arranger Forum. Sounds like you've done your homework regarding the scope of human hearing. My wife accuses me of being deaf, blind and other significant human frailties all the time. LOL! I had a classmate from Mountain Home years ago. Hope it hasn't lost it's charm.

Regards to both of you, ----Dave Rice

http://www.ShowCaseYourMusic.com/DaveRice/

Earl, who ever told you that you can only hear two sounds at once has absolutely no idea what they are talking about. Anyone that has studied human anatomy and physiology knows that humans and most other mammals can hear thousands of sounds at the same time. When you hear a hissing sound of air leaking from an punctured tire, you are hearing thousands upon thousands of sound all a the same time, and thousands of individual frequencies. Same when you hear white noise. I do remember a few things from my A&P classes at University of Maryland.

All the best,

Gary 8)

Hi Gary:

Interesting! We have a "healthy" debate on sound(s) and hearing. I'll be looking forward to "Earl's" response... and then yours. LOL! I promise to be impartial. My original intent was to make a fairly new participant here feel welcome. This forum has a cliquish feel to it for newcomers and it takes a while to "learn the ropes" and "pecking order."

It is such a valuable resource to me in keeping up with this little segment of our ever-changing world and guys like you, Donnie and Mason always know how to "humanize" things and put opinions in "laymen's terms." Then there is Nigel who keeps it all in balance.

All the best, ----Dave Rice

Gary, yes, no, maybe. In the case of the leaking air. that sound supersedes all other sounds and becomes dominate. The other sounds are heard (so in that sense you are correct) but they mesh together into one secondary sound. You hear it but as one sound not 10-20 individual sounds. So for the listener to hear each line of the music distinctively you need to introduce it individually.

Now, as I said, I don't remember the exact place or person that introduced this concept to me, but I believe it might have been presented in a arranging, composition class I took at Norfolk State College when I was at the Naval School f Music.

I also don't think that what was meant, that you didn't hear more than two sounds at once but that you couldn't properly comprehend more than two sounds (lines of music) at once. I need to be more careful as to how I explain things!

So, yes, no, maybe.

Hi Donny, no expert on the subject of music, but sometimes when you listen to a style, sounds fabulous, especially some of those great intro’s and endings, but, when you actually try using them for a song, they can sound too busy, and sometimes don’t really work. I’ve been experimenting with some country styles, not something I have ever played before, but I found this great little Nashville songbook in my collection, and thought I’d give it a go. Had a few problems trying to find styles to suit. ( probably should have asked for advice as to what might work) but I ended up slowing down the tempo , almost halving on a couple of the styles, and came up with something suitable ( I think) had to mute a track or so, intro not useable, but that’s the beauty of an arranger, you can do what you want.