Musician or entertainer...

Posted by: travlin'easy

Musician or entertainer... - 12/01/17 03:59 PM

This subject comes up quite a lot on many music forums, mainly by folks that wish to become OMB entertainers. A significant number of them are very accomplished musicians, some highly trained as well as highly skilled.

The flip side of this coin is another group, who often are mediocre to good players, but they have other attributes when it comes to being an OMB entertainer. The best ones tend to be good to excellent vocalist, and have the ability to interact with their audiences while performing a song. My old friend, Don Mason has both attributes, in that he is an excellent player and entertainer, all in one package. I have seem him perform live and in person on a few occasions and can attest to this first hand.

The same holds true with Donny Pesce, Uncle Dave, Fran Carango, and a host of others that frequent this forum. More recently, I have met, over the PSR Tutorial Forum, another top-notch entertainer who has performed in several European nations, and currently performs and resides on the tiny island of Ibiza, Spain in the Mediterranean. He has an incredible background, primarily as a piano player, but also performs using a Tyros 3. He was thinking about upgrading to a Genos, and after watching him perform, I told him that he really should save his money, or spend it on his wife. He is an incredible entertainer. What do you think he should do?



Gary cool
Posted by: Riceroni9

Re: Musician or entertainer... - 12/01/17 08:25 PM

Hi Gary:

I watched earlier but did not have time to respond. The man obviously has playing talent but it is difficult to confirm on one song only. He certainly appears to be a showman with more appeal to the local crowd than an artist of recognizable stature worldwide.

Sometimes showmanship can overcome vocals that are a bit on the edge. Having the ability to keep the attention of the crowd is equally important in the business that many of you here at "The Synth Zone's Arranger Forum serve. (...and quite well, I might add.)

Thanks for sharing. I enjoyed it. I also wonder what a typical night's play-list for him might be? I suspect many of his songs are popular in Spain but not so well known by the rest of us?

Best regards, ----Dave Rice

http://www.showcaseyourmusic.com/DaveRice/
Posted by: Bachus

Re: Musician or entertainer... - 12/02/17 12:30 AM

Both... both entertainer as well as musician...

The problem with his T3 is that due to heavy use its fallong into pieces..
And thats the reason he is looking to replace it.

I think he would even sound great on a Roland G70..

But if i where him, i would buy something light and sturdy
Posted by: bruno123

Re: Musician or entertainer... - 12/02/17 04:27 AM

The performing part is received when we are born. The musician part we learn.
Gary this is a good video. The problem is when listening the mind compares with it the original performance. I could not stop thinking that he was playing a keyboard.

John C.
Posted by: cgiles

Re: Musician or entertainer... - 12/02/17 05:48 AM

'Entertainer' is too broad a term for me. To me, an 'entertainer' could be anything from a kid's birthday party clown to a magician to an alligator wrestler; as long as he is entertaining people. A musician, on the other hand, is a musician. Technically, he is also an entertainer, in that he/she entertains with their musical performance. If by 'entertainer' you mean 'musical entertainer', then you run the gamut of entertainers with average to poor musical skills to musicians with average to poor entertaining skills (and everything in between). Vocals, of course, muddy the waters, so I am leaving them out of my distinctions. Of course there are some, like Victor Borge or Harry Connick, Jr. or Sammy Davis, Jr., who are both superb musicians AND entertainers.

I understand what John C. is saying above ('learn' vs 'born with') although I don't totally agree with it. I think both skills can be learned (or at least, enhanced) although ("born with" - aka 'talent') certainly helps.

BTW, this 'Entertainer vs Musician' subject is broached quite often but hardly ever by musicians - wonder why?

chas
Posted by: DonM

Re: Musician or entertainer... - 12/02/17 07:26 AM

I definitely had to learn to be both to an extent. Still learning! Have to blame my mother, who was an accomplished concert pianist and church organist, and who NEVER kept her mouth shut! smile She couldn't sing though...sure miss her.
Posted by: travlin'easy

Re: Musician or entertainer... - 12/02/17 07:40 AM

Dave, most of the music he performs is US rock songs and oldies. Take a look at https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=abby+piano+man+

Gary
Posted by: W Tracy Parnell

Re: Musician or entertainer... - 12/02/17 08:17 AM

Very good entertainer and player who enjoys what he is doing. If he believes that the Genos will enhance his performances (and he can afford it) he should get one.
Posted by: Uncle Dave

Re: Musician or entertainer... - 12/02/17 08:26 AM

Musicianship can certainly be entertaining, on it's own, but I'm guessing the OP was referring to the OMB approach, where the audience benefits from a little "nudge" from an EmmCee. Most large scale concerts are all about hype - there's pyrotechnics, extensive lighting, smoke, and video .... all that adds to the entertainment value, but (once again) if you're talking more serious listening environments (jazz, classical), the audience probably doesn't expect too much of a "showman."

I pride myself on being a showman, who's constantly trying to improve my musicianship. They go hand in hand, for me. I have some people fooled into thinking I can even play jazz, although, I won't dare put myself in that category. I have a jazz "feel", but lack serious, trained chops. There are nights when I desperately need to showcase some technique, if only for a song or two. Last night, for example, I played my tenor for 1/2 of the first set, and interspersed it throughout the night, whenever I could. It gave me a more "legit" element to an otherwise sterile (digital) performance. Even with all the improvements that modern keyboards offer, there's still something special about adding an acoustic element to a digital performance. (guitar, sax, even a tambourine helps make it sound more believable) I'll be tantalizing my crowds all month with guitar, bass, uke, mandolin, clarinet, sax, flute, and creative Manhattan Transfer-ish harmonies behind our many guest singers. I see my stage as a mini showcase each night, and the balance between music and schmaltz is adjusted as needed. Every night is different.

There is a great quote from the movie "LaLaLand" that addresses jazz, but it really applies to my performance approach, as well.
"... it's conflict, and compromise, and it's different every time. It's VERY exciting"
Now, I realize "real" jazz musicians rate this movie up there with Kenny G, and Jimmy Buffett, but I see something in it that will shine, if they ever take it to the stage. Gosling and Stone are charming, but give those songs to Sutton Foster and Jeremy Jordan, and they'll come alive. I can't wait to see if they adapt it for the Broadway stage.
But, I digress ... aw, hell. I'm done. You get the point. You need fluff AND fiber.
Posted by: sparky589

Re: Musician or entertainer... - 12/02/17 08:31 AM

I do agree with John in that inherent personality provides basis for the entertainer side(extrovert vs introvert). Entertaining has to be worked at for those who are not naturals at it, and can be more daunting than learning the musicianship; about stepping out of your comfort zone and such..
Posted by: cgiles

Re: Musician or entertainer... - 12/02/17 09:10 AM

Originally Posted By Uncle Dave
Musicianship can certainly be entertaining, on it's own, but I'm guessing the OP was referring to the OMB approach, where the audience benefits from a little "nudge" from an EmmCee. Most large scale concerts are all about hype - there's pyrotechnics, extensive lighting, smoke, and video .... all that adds to the entertainment value, but (once again) if you're talking more serious listening environments (jazz, classical), the audience probably doesn't expect too much of a "showman."

I pride myself on being a showman, who's constantly trying to improve my musicianship. They go hand in hand, for me. I have some people fooled into thinking I can even play jazz, although, I won't dare put myself in that category. I have a jazz "feel", but lack serious, trained chops. There are nights when I desperately need to showcase some technique, if only for a song or two. Last night, for example, I played my tenor for 1/2 of the first set, and interspersed it throughout the night, whenever I could. It gave me a more "legit" element to an otherwise sterile (digital) performance. Even with all the improvements that modern keyboards offer, there's still something special about adding an acoustic element to a digital performance. (guitar, sax, even a tambourine helps make it sound more believable) I'll be tantalizing my crowds all month with guitar, bass, uke, mandolin, clarinet, sax, flute, and creative Manhattan Transfer-ish harmonies behind our many guest singers. I see my stage as a mini showcase each night, and the balance between music and schmaltz is adjusted as needed. Every night is different.



Excellent post. Lotta good stuff in there; read it twice. I like that it doesn't try to push one side over another, but merely explains HIS approach to the balance between showmanship and musicianship (and there always IS a balance). It's great to have the skills on both sides of the equation to make those adjustments (as UD does), but if you consider yourself a MUSICAL entertainer and you're really weak in the MUSICAL side of it, all the ENTERTAINING skills in the world are not going to hide it. For pure 'musicians', the music IS the entertainment. Dave's example of 'jazz' and 'classical' illustrates that very nicely. Everything has value; it depends on what the audience is there for.

chas
Posted by: travlin'easy

Re: Musician or entertainer... - 12/02/17 10:43 AM

In the decades I have been on this forum, I have ALWAYS said that I am not a musician, but instead, a musical entertainer. I can play a guitar, harmonica and mandolin, but I really enjoy playing the keyboard and singing to the ladies. And, I guess I have just enough musicianship to fool the audiences into thinking I am a musician as well as a singer/entertainer. Now that I am retired, I post a song once in a while, just for the fun and enjoyment of still being able to do what I did when I was working every day.

By and large, I sincerely believe that our audiences just want to be entertained.

Cheers,

Gary cool
Posted by: J. Larry

Re: Musician or entertainer... - 12/02/17 01:08 PM

I like the point that most listeners just want to be entertained. Or, certainly not overwhelmed by loud music, in my case. I try my best within the limits of what I can do and let it ride. Most of the time, things go well. In truth, how often do we play in front of music critics, or those highly trained in music theory and all the rest? Not here. However, I do get a few retired band directors and a few music professors in my audience. Most seem appreciative of what they hear, while dining. And, I’m basically self-taught. I’ve never had anyone say, “You really messed up those chord changes on All The Things You Are.” Maybe they’re just being nice.
Posted by: travlin'easy

Re: Musician or entertainer... - 12/02/17 01:50 PM

I can only recall once when someone came up to me and said "That song was not written or performed in "G" - the original was in "D" " I calmly replied to him, well my bullfrog voice will not let me sing it in "D"! He smiled and walked back to his table and continued to get plastered.

Sure has been a fun ride,

Gary cool
Posted by: DonM

Re: Musician or entertainer... - 12/02/17 01:55 PM

I had a "musician" tell me I was playing a wrong chord in "For The Good Times" a couple of weeks ago.
I told him that I was aware that a lot of people used an augmented chord instead of the standard five/seventh in the chorus, but that I had heard Kris Kristopherson do it in person and I was playing it the way he wrote it. smile
Posted by: Uncle Dave

Re: Musician or entertainer... - 12/02/17 04:24 PM

If I'm the only one on stage - I CANNOT play a wrong note, or chord. It's all a personal, poetic license that only the performer can orchestrate. The know-it-all who "corrected" you .... quite simply is WRONG.
Posted by: captain Russ

Re: Musician or entertainer... - 12/02/17 05:13 PM

I have probably made more references to "entertainer vs. musician" than anyone.

I am a musician by choice. I choose to play dining rooms, where volume and song selection are more important than banter.

I choose to do studio work because it pays lots better and everyone leaves me alone to do my job.

In the studio, I'm completing the score, but also have written the script, shot the critical frames, done the storyboards, etc.

Playing live, I'd rather play for 25 jazz listeners than 2,000
drunks or party people.

I feel I have an obligation to educate. All it takes is one listener converting to, say Forplay type music, or to develop an appreciation for a song like "In the Wee Small Hours of the morning", "When Sunny Gets Blue", "Spring can really hang you up",....any one of thousands of tunes that have respectable structure and meaning.

But folks, that's me. I LOVE a good musical entertainer.

I just don't want to be one.

And so far, things have worked out.


Be well, all,


Russ (tired of bland soup) Lay

PS: guess you figured out the diverticulitis is much better.

I'M HUNGRY!

Posted by: cgiles

Re: Musician or entertainer... - 12/02/17 06:55 PM

Originally Posted By captain Russ
guess you figured out the diverticulitis is much better.



So I guess this means I'm not getting the B3 and the Cushman any time soon? Dang.

smile

chas

PS: Glad you're feeling better.
Posted by: DonM

Re: Musician or entertainer... - 12/02/17 10:21 PM

I'm waiting on a Cushman too Chas. He'll most likely outlive us both! smile
And I hope he does!
Posted by: cgiles

Re: Musician or entertainer... - 12/03/17 04:52 AM

Originally Posted By DonM
I'm waiting on a Cushman too Chas. He'll most likely outlive us both! smile
And I hope he does!


Of course he will. "Only the good (that's us, Don) die young" smile smile.

chas
Posted by: Mark79100

Re: Musician or entertainer... - 12/03/17 10:19 PM

I'm curious what the remarks would be about THIS video. There's a lot going on here to comment about. Your views?

Posted by: cgiles

Re: Musician or entertainer... - 12/04/17 05:49 AM

My initial view is, I'd rather be dead than playing that gig. The guy is a very competent journeyman entertainer ie. he's better than most working that type of gig. I watched the video following this one as well (Johnny Be Good) and he's very capable and comfortable with his instrument(s). Conclusion; although not my type of music, he does what he does very well. JMO, though.

chas
Posted by: Gunnar Jonny

Re: Musician or entertainer... - 12/04/17 06:24 AM

It's also about to what public and where you perform.
This is at Ibiza, a popular island where i.e. a lot of Scaninawians travel to lick sunbeams, drink a lot of alcohol and party all night long.
Pianoman, as we see him in this video, is just on track for this kind of entertainment.
Only thing i would remark, is that he is almost hidden behind the rack. Should be more visible to the public. smile
Posted by: captain Russ

Re: Musician or entertainer... - 12/06/17 09:14 AM

Let's not fight over Cushman's, guys. The only official assignment is the Highlander, 1964 to Don. Did not know Chas wanted one. I am just completing a frame up restructuring of an Eagle, and Chas is welcome to it when I expire. One thing, right now, I'm putting on disk brakes and a 23 HP converted Briggs engine customized just for this purpose. The original Robin was 9 H/P. That will make this bad boy interstate ready.

The Highlander is factory accurate, except for the color. I'll keep the Robin engine from the Eagle, but will not rebuild it. I have a sale for it anytime I want to unload it.

The B-3 will go to a local Jazz Arts society. Maintenance on that old monster is outrageous.

We haul the Cushman and/or a cool bobber Kikker kit bike or Kymco K-pipe to car shows to run around on. We pull it(them) in a 50's trailer with my 85 Riviera, a 48 "ratrod" camper truck or a 40's era Olds.

Finally, with the Oldsmobile we have a car older than me!

Russ
Posted by: travlin'easy

Re: Musician or entertainer... - 12/06/17 01:35 PM

The Cushman I owned many, many years ago had a governor on it so it would not go faster than about 35 MPH, and that was downhill. wink

All the best,

Gary cool