Midnight in Moscow Dixie - Lukewarm about SN-A

Yesterday night I prepared a full dixieland version of Midnight in Moscow, inspired by the Kenny Ball version.
While I had taken written notes of the impros the clarinet plays during the first verse, I played everything else into the tracks spontaneously.
Trumpet, clarinet and trombone as well as acoustic bass and drums are SuperNatural Integra sounds. The muted/growl trumpet however is from the old expansion SRX 09, as is the banjo.

I always have the same impression when I mainly use SN-A sounds (and this trumpet is definitely identical to ARX-03!). They somehow lack a little bit of liveliness despite their modeled glissandi, legato etc. What they mainly lack is a real, sampled vibrato!

Maybe I will play the same sequencer file through the Ketron SD-1000 again in a few days, as my newly ordered SD-1000 is to arrive tomorrow (I stupidly sold the first one).

Midnight in Moscow, Integra version:

https://soundcloud.com/rorosetree/midnight-in-moscow-dixieland-on-roland-integra-7

Note: Also in memory of late Synthzone user "Dreamer".

I liked it! I did not know the title, but I recognized the music instantly. From what I remember, it dates back a few decades. Maybe from the 1960s. Right?

Regarding the brass and woodwind sounds, when I tried a Roland Jupiter-80 in a store, I also thought the SN-A sounds were not too realistic. The vibrato sounded synthetic. Other SN-A sounds were good, though.

In your music above, it was less noticeable because there were several instruments playing at the same time.

I always look forward to new music from you. Thanks!

Very difficult song to play, at least for me, but you did a good job playing it. However, the style, while correct for the song, to me, sounded just awful. Now, don't get me wrong - YOU did a great job, but the style itself sounded way too busy, and overshadowed your talents.

Gary

I thought it was well played it had that old 20'ssound feel to it too,...the banjo could be brought back a bit in the mix as it was too little dominate & overpowering,....and I didn't like the snare drum resonance to much a bit of a shell shallow sound,......
otherwise good job. But that can all be fixed easily with editing,.. Thank you for sharing.

Thanks! Interesting you didn't notice the artificial vibrato so much here. I'm torn, there is something about the trumpet I like very much and something I like better about a few MoXF and Ketron trumpets.

Thanks for your opinion. But there is no "style" (the Integra doesn't have styles or any automatic playing), so your criticism concerns what I did myself: I did the whole thing from scratch (in 2 hours), there isn't even an automatic drum rhythm. I played everything you hear manually, every banjo strum, hi hat and snare hit, clarinet, trombone etc.
So there's a problem about the density in my arrangement, and it's no wonder, I just took less than 2 hours for it playing drums, bass and banjo manually and making up all those improvisations of trumpet, trombone and clarinet. I guess I would have to thin out the arrangement especially with respect to the clarinet, it should only play short phrases whenever the trumpet has a break. I tried to to that, but it still got too dense, so the whole thing is a bit too busy at times. Additionally, as Donny says, banjo and also drums are too dominant.
My main question however was about the sound of trumpet, trombone and clarinet. I'd like some more opinions about them.

P.S.: I checked the original again. It does sound busy, too, but banjo is less dominant, and the bass is not a walking bass most of the time as I did, but a slow one playing dominant, fourth and fifth mostly. But I think I wasn't very far away from the original sound, given the little time I spent for it. Noting down all the impros of the original in written would take a whole day i guess

they sounded great, but were overshadowed by the banjo, drums, etc...

Gary

Well played! The trumpet and clarinet I could live with, but felt the trombone was a bit 'un mellow' - for want of a better word. Yes, the banjo was a bit too forward, but I like drums forward in a mix. A strong acoustic bass would work well, too. I'm familiar with Kenny Ball's rendition, he had a number one with it in the UK in days of yore, and you caught the feel very well. Thanks.

I just listened to it a couple of more times, but most of your notes are rather short, so it's hard to hear the vibrato. Add to that the fact that I'm 54 and loosing my hearing a little, and voila'!......Inability to distinguish sounds as good as I used to. Oh, and did I mention my eyes are getting worse, too?

The vibrato I did hear of the trumpet and some other instument sounds seemed fine. On my Motif XF, I have a trumpet called "Trumpet Vibrato" which I really like. You must have the same on your MoXF. Maybe, you'd like using it more.

The ensemble voices are lively, and they give the feeling of the original which I heard on YouTube.

Thanks a lot, 124!



Absolutely, that's one of my favorites! I used that e.g. for my latest Bert Kaempfert tune on MoXF, Happy Trumpeter.

Yes, I've heard it! I don't care what anyone thinks, I love Bert Kaempfert! Your renditions of his songs capture that 60's sound. Well done.

Thanks for the treat. This deeptively simple and yet beautiful Russian tune is, I have noticed, played in a Jazz swing style a lot. Your rention is perect for today. Mardi Gras. At my gig today I was asked to play a lot of jazz. I am not a "jazzer" per se but I played a lot of tunes that would fit for the occasion.

I enjoy listening to and playing well known simple tunes like this tastefully "rearrananged." I bet there are tens of hundreds of Youtube videos of this tune, but here are two "straight" versions.
http://tvpot.daum.net/v/QCyCKQI35m0$
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48oO9Mh2DDc

Rosetree.....I'd really like to hear what you did with that song. No one has tackled Midnight in Moscow except for Kenny Ball. To be honest, mostly I'd like to hear the Integra.

But........I can't download from the site you posted. It doesn't work for me. Any suggestions?

Mark

Clear your browser history, cache and temporary files then restart your browser to see if this solves the problem.

If this fails add soundcloud to your safe sites list and try that.

If still no luck try another browser, or if you are using a phone or tablet download the soundcloud app.

Hope this helps

Bill

In case you have an older version of the Internet Explorer, Soundcloud doesn't work with it, I think you need version 10 or 11. On my iPad and Windows Phone the link works, too. Usually the Firefox/Mozilla works without problems, too.
BTW, it is to be played directly on the site with the play button, not for download.
You may also try the general link and then go to 'tracks':
https://soundcloud.com/rorosetree

But I'm going to replace the audio file with an improved one maybe tonight.

Why not try https://www.box.com/home/

I find it easy to upload and share songs using it...

I might try that, too, but Soundcloud is a very popular platform for musicians that has emerged during the past years. Meanwhile I have 42 followers there and I am following others I know, too. I also use it to embed the tracks in my website.

rosetree ... you did a nice job on this tune, especially considering the limited amount of time you worked on it ...

Could you explain your 'dedication' to "Dreamer" ? I had the very good fortune of meeting him and spending all too little time with him in Rome ... we then kept an e-mail relationship going until his very untimely passing ...
I am fortunate to have a CD of his recordings ...
He was truly a fine musician and a GENTLEman ...

I only knew him from this forum, but I remember so well when we both discussed "Midnight in Moscow", as I had played some bars of it in a BK-7m demo, and he recognized that it must be derived from the Kenny Ball version. We exchanged a few posts about that, I mentioned that my father had it on one of his old records. So I was shocked later when I heard he had passed away, and I always connect him to the tune now.

P.S.: EDITED VERSION COMING UP...

So I've replaced the original file. Still much left to be improved, but:
- cleaned up the mix
- bass plays calmer pattern now
- second key shift before last verse with added trombone glissando (here it's a SRX 06 trombone).
So the version has more dynamic development now.

https://soundcloud.com/rorosetree/midnight-in-moscow-dixieland-on-roland-integra-7

Thanks Bill....I did that....cleared my cache and temp files and anything else that might be interfering. Even added it to my "safe sites." Still nothing.

I went to the library today to use their hi-speed computers and both browsers (Firefox and Explorer). I got to the page with the wave form showing and watched the progress meter go through it, but I heard no sound in my headphones. But....stupid me, maybe someone turned off the "volume control. I should have tested it with a Youtube video.

Mark

Rosetree....that worked for me. I was able to access it going through the back door and I then went to "tracks." BUT....I have a dial-up connection so it only played for me in bits and pieces....maybe 2 second bytes. Couldn't hear the song as a "whole."

What I did hear in the 2 second bytes, I liked. The instruments sounded authentic, you had the right dixieland licks on each instruments, good strong beat. But....I'd really like to hear the whole song and what you did with this song using the Integra.

Are you able to post it here as an mp3?

Mark

Yamaha sound versus the Roland sound...

For me its Yamaha allways trying to be superrealistic when creating sounds...
Where Roland in general tries to create sounds that sound great and are dynamic and expressive while played, but not necessarilly as naturall sounding as Yamaha..

To be honest, i had to listen a 2nd time and use my sennheiser headset, listening to them on my PC speakers only gave me a possitive expression of the soundquallity

I wanted to send you the mp3 via PM, but I don't see an option to attach a file to a PM... Following what I just posted about copying music and reposting it elsewhere, I'm reluctant to post an mp3 for public download here (which doesn't mean I particularly like my version, I've done much nicer tunes, I don't like the SN-A sounds).

I only agree regarding Roland's so-called SuperNatural sounds. My opinion is: These are not what Roland used to be. To me, many of the SRX boards are much more realistic than the preset sounds Yamaha offered from 2000-2010, and I still have to hear Yamaha brass sounds of the same realism as Roland's SRX 10 C-trumpets and French Horns. Maybe Montage has finally caught up.
I've always said what I love about the Integra is mostly the SRX library, not the SN-A sounds. If you compare this "Midnight in Moscow" to my "Petersburg Sleigh Ride", which consists of 17-year-old samples, I'd prefer the Sleigh Ride in terms of realism.

I'll experiment a bit and upload parts of the song played with old SRX samples to compare it with SN-A.

BTW, you know what a trumpeter I cooperate with said about my recording: the things he liked best was the muted growl trumpet and the banjo - exactly those two I took from the SRX 09 World expansion, samples from the 1990s.

I am indeed talking Rolands current sounds vs Yamaha.. Its not only the S/N sounds vs the SA2 sounds but also when you compare their current high end stage piano's ... cp4 sounds a lille more real, but rd800 is so much more fun playing and toying with the sound...

Here's my comparative version of 'Midnight in Moscow' with a Ketron SD-1000 trumpet. Everything else taken from the first version.

https://soundcloud.com/rorosetree/midnig...trumpet-integra

rosetree ... I went back and listened to the original version and what stuck out to me is that in your version the trumpet is very legato while in the original it is more staccato and has more 'bite' ...
Still, I think it is a helluvan effort ...

Thanks, Tony. In the latest version I chose a soft vibrato trumpet of Ketron, as I thought it sounds nicest. My articulation is partly portato, partly legato, occasionally staccato. I'll compare some more things with the original later, of course I didn't copy all the impros, which would make it sound much more like the original, (who am I to quickly redo all the professional improvisations of 3 instruments). But I have been neglecting a paid playback project for a singer, so it'll take a while until I can work more on it.

Rosetree......I went down to the library to listen to it again, and still.......no sound. I guess that's one way of being certain no one else steals your music.

Only kidding. Stupid me. The sound was turned off on their computers. I turned it back on.

Now I only had time to listen to it two times, and I couldn't concentrate on it very well as the library was about to close.

But I'm going to do an about face. Usually I pick a song apart. In this case, I thought you did a great job. You had a good "feel" for the style you were playing and I listened closely to your background instruments." Nice little fill-ins to give it that real Dixie sound.

I do remember thinking that part in the middle with the "spit" trumpet could have been smoother and held back a little more to break up the pace of the song.

But, I have to give you real credit if you put that whole thing together yourself on a workstation.

Incidentally, I DID like the sound of the Integra. But anyway I'm going down to the library again tomorrow and I'll have another listen.

Mark

Thank you, Mark.

After some futile attempts, this is Version 4 now (to be further improved...):

https://soundcloud.com/rorosetree/midnight-in-moscow-dixieland-kenny-ball-style-v4-roland-integra

I had some significant insights into the arrangement... In Dixieland much is about playing harmonic voices in parallel instead of polyphonic improvisation...

Big improvement!

Gary

Thanks for confirming it, Gary. It was really more about the arrangement than about the mix. I roughly listed up all the changes in the Soundcloud description. I' ve done a lot of multitrack orchestral playbacks by ear without sheet music, but here I was deaf for a few important things first before I realized that in fact at most times two instruments are playing harmonies in parallel, and only one is improvising... As Dreamer said when we discussed this piece: How much you would learn from it if you elaborated all the instruments of that piece...

Tonight in the middle of the night at 5 a.m. it struck me: there's one chord change that's not quite right (in the 8th bar)! It ought to be a diminished chord, while I played a double dominante. That would increase tension. I'll correct it tonight.

Does someone need a girlfriend?



Ok, just kidding, don't shoot me.

chas

Lesbian girlfriend or not, I have no control of what thoughts hit my mind at night.

Version 5 with diminished chords (what a difference!) and some other important changes online now (I replaced the file, same link).
https://soundcloud.com/rorosetree/midnight-in-moscow-dixieland-kenny-ball-style-v4-roland-integra

I'm gonna do another dixieland soon, the beloved dixie version of the German folk song "On the Luneburg Heath" done in 1961 (just the same time as Kenny Ball) by the Hamburg-based Old Merry Tale Jazz Band.

A trumpeter who listened to my last version mistook the muted cup trumpet in the beginning of the piece as a "harmonica" ! Another example of how I dislike many of the Integra SuperNatural sounds. In contrast, he liked the muted trumpet in the middle - that is an old sample from the SRX 09 World from the 1990s...

New version, same link...
slowly getting crazy from this tune, it's got to have an end some time soon But I had forgotten about that great dirty trumpet impro when the trombone takes over the melody line... (not to mention the different trombone impro in Verse 2 and the snare rolls).
https://soundcloud.com/rorosetree/midnight-in-moscow-dixieland-kenny-ball-style-v4-roland-integra

I've concluded the project for the time being. Yesterday and today I made a lot of further changes to the arrangement (after closely listening to the original).
I've decided to choose a Ketron SD 1000 trumpet for the main trumpet and also the SD 1000 clarinet. All the other sounds are still from Integra.
So this is the final version (unless some time I replace the trombone by my own real trombone playing in case I get back in form).

https://soundcloud.com/rorosetree/midnig...-ketron-sd-1000