Vocal Harmonizer > Korg vs. Yamaha vs. Ketron

So we are comparing the vocalizer on the Pa3x to the Tyros 4, to the Audya

Has anyone compared all three?

I own the AUDYA 4 and AUDYA 5 and can honestly say I've never hooked up a mic to it,
let alone test its vocalizer features

A friend of mine just bought a Pa3x and raves about it, how you can play an MP3, sing , and it will harmonize based off the mp3 that is playing, he says it reads the chords and harmonizes accordingly

I know Korgs Harmonizer is based off, or is a TC Helicon

Is is miles ahead of Yamahas or Ketrons?

How do the 3 compare to each other? Which is best, seconds best? Etc.

I've had all three. Korg is best, Ketron next and Yamaha a distant third.

DUCK !!!

Listen to Don....big Ditto!

Any way to improve upon, let's say, Audya's Vocalizer?

Or is it all Hardware,
it is what it is....what it is , it is!!!

.

I was quite pleased with the Audya harmonizer. It did everything I wanted and sounded great. I still think the Korg has the edge though.
It may just be the setup I use most. They are both excellent. Stand-alone harmonizers as a rule have more options and easier access to comtrols on the fly, but I don't know that they sound any better.
I haven't had the Audya for several years and I went from PA3x to PA900 about nine months ago. I was pleased with all three.
The Yamaha harmonizer starting with Tyros 4 was improved over previous models and is now usable, but it is harder to set up, more prone to picking up external sounds and distorting, and not as natural sounding to my aging ears.

Anyone else?

I never tried ketron harmonizer, but I do have T5 and for number of years I owned t c - helicon harmonizers. From VoicePrizme plus to voicelive 2. Korg uses tchelicon in their pa keyboards and is much better than one on Yamaha.The best thing is to get separate unit and use it.Everything else doesn't come close.
I never tried voicelive 3.It has too many things that I don't need.Actually the way things go with tchelicon units is they are starting to become everything else but a harmony units.One thing that I don't like in T5 harmonizer is you can't make user scales. I could understand in a MOTL you cut features but not in TOTL keyboard.
You will not go wrong if you tweak ketron to your liking, or even if you get tchelicon unit on the side.They are the best out there, we'll if you exclude Eventide.

Keton's VH in my X1, Sd1+,XD9,SD5, MidJay, were all quirky and never performed properly.....
they are very temperamental. But, when they worked it sounded fine....programming & setting it up with song setups is the difficult part. KORG TC Helicon is a breeze to use and sounds fantastic...
Yamaha VH1 & VH2 still needs alot of help although at this time I have finally come up with settings after lots of extensive tweaking that makes VH2 usable to a point on my S950, Tyros4/5.

If I was to rate the three mentioned, I probably would select Korg, Ketron, and Yamaha in that order..
There is another I would select above all three...and that would be Roland, not because it is head and shoulders better than the others (it is not)....but the design is...the auto track, and auto detect are great..and chord analizing are great...Set up is a breeze compared to Korg, and results are superior to me..
The Korg OS is the downfall in setting up a harmonizer on the Korg...the effects blocks and routings are terrible..selecting harmony for a song (SMF) and than harmony with a style, or maybe real time voicing of harmony, is a chore on the Korg...Roland is way better in this behalf...

I don't believe the stand a lones are worth the hassle...on board is a better flow to doing things..
Roland lacks the gimmick things "scoop" and "d-essing"....(fake at best)..but the ability to make the harmony more usable in a live performance, is unmatched..

I have found that even long time Roland users, do not understand the Roland harmonizer on the G70/E80....They pass over "vocoder" mode thinking it is the 25 year old Korg vocoder..it is NOT!!
Select "My voice" and you can use this real time voicing harmony, and you can edit the zones, range and other parameters to suit your use..

Some of my experiences with the three mentioned...I already explained my disappointment in the Korg (OS)..I used a PA800 for awhile, and disliked the harmonizer....
My Ketron experience was the X1..Used it for about a year..the $116 harmony board (dealer cost) was worth having, but had glitches, and different harmony settings were a pain to keep set up..

My last Yamaha that I actually tried to use (harmony), was the PSR 2100...It was a nightmare...the final day, I was playing a Dept store, and comments from elderly shoppers, about the "funny" sounding vocal (not me)....embarrassed me...not only did I never use the harmonizer again...I got rid of the PSR 2100...and It's backup brother..

I also used a Tune 1000 Harmony box with my G1000(still have the Harmony Box)...It is a no frills harmony unit that actually did sound great...in fact in blind test, I had musician friends pick the Harmony Box over Digitech....I used the midi sets on the G1000 to make the Harmony Box more useable..

I think we can use any of the harmonizers ....but the important factor...don't over use them..pick your spots....

BTW: you can actually use a vocal sound (choir) etc, and create a touch of added harmony in place of no harmony options...

Maybe I am missing something, but I use the VH on my KORG Pa900 and I don't find it difficult at all ... I only use a couple of SMFs, but I've set up specific styles for songs, including the harmony voices I want, without a problem (I have created a number of different harmony 'presets') ... I can also change the harmony parts "on the fly' while I am playing a style ...
I don't think we can REALLY hear how the harmony sounds while we are singing, but I have had many compliments on it, especially from my most sincere critic, my wife ...
The only other VH I have used is the Digitech VH Workstaion ex, which also sounds great ...
Just my 2pennies worth ...

Tony I wish Digitech or tchelicon would make a new harmonizer with the same layout like Vocalist Workstation EX.Easiest thing ever to use.Very fast to set harmony when you play live.I wouldn't mind getting even original workstation EX in a good shape.

The vocal harmonizer on PA3x and PA900 are much easier to use than the one on the PA800, and to my ears is much improved. Actually the PA900 is more user-friendly than the PA3X, but lacks a few of the bells and whistles maybe.
Ketron is also vastly improved. The Midjay had only a vocoder. Audya is way better than the old X1. Roland is a non-player for now, so is not relevant. If the BK9 had a decent vocal harmonizer I probably would have kept it.

mirza ... I totally agree ... and the presets that are written to be used without a midi connection and follow your voice while only indicating the key you are singing in work great ...

Here it is:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/DigiTech-Vocalist-Workstation-EX-Vocal-Harmony-Processor-/191394944113
There are some power supply cords available on e-bay also ...

I had a problem with mine a while back and was able to find a pretty beat up one on-line that I bought for parts ... I sent it to the repair shop with mine and the techs were able to get mine working beautifully ...

These LOOK like they might work in the same way:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Digitech-DOD-Voc...n-/111495661510

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DigiTech-Vocalis...l-/251686609392

I used Robbies settings on my S950.......EXCEPT I changed his Chordal selection 3Abv.Jazz.....to 3Abv.Chordal....
and Vocal Effect Type 80sPOP Rev to R&R Delay..w/ 16 rev.
This made a BIG difference in chord/vocal tracking my voice.

If you have a Yamaha S950 or T4/5 try these settings, just follow the video and stop it,.... make changes on your KB & continue, adding my edits along the way also. ....
it makes a big difference in the VH2 sound & tracking...

My 2 cents ..............

I started with a Digitech Vocalist 4 floor pedal model and have tried several different things mostly through rentals. Haven't found anything better. I wanted a PSR S950 but VH2 is so bad I bought the 750 instead and run my Vocalist through it.

Sometimes I think I hear decent harmony with VH2 but the whole processed sound is very unnatural. Even the lead voice becomes garbled when harmony is engaged.

This is what my Digitech V4 sounds like.......



All my You Tube postings use Digitech harmony.

God Bless,
Don

Having tried them all since the first Digitech came out, none, both onboard and outboard, really excite me. Additionally, the best use of any of them can be described in a single word - sparingly!

The S-950's onboard harmonizer, when properly tuned, actually sounds pretty good - not fantastic. However, when used sparingly, and when properly tuned, which DNJ has done, it can add a bit of body to a good vocal performance.

None of them sound fantastic, though. And, they will not change a bad singer into a good singer, or even a mediocre singer. That just ain't gonna happen. Some of the KJs in this part of the world utilize everything they can to improve the vocal quality of their followers. I've only heard one PC program that will do this, and I don't believe it's commercially available at this time.

Cheers,

Gary

I have no experience with the TC stuff. I have used Yamaha, Ketron and Roland. The G70 beats them all hands down. I played in Church a couple of weeks ago and after the service the choir director came running up and asked me how I recorded the harmony and got it to play back at just the correct time. She is a college trained public school choir director and was fooled by the G70.

I haven't had tons of experiences with different keyboard harmonizers.

That said, I have used Digitech and TC Helicon harmonizers with guitar...prefer TC Helicon.

My wife and I found that we needed different settings for her when she used both the S950 and Tyros 4 harmonizers...different than mine I should say.

Here, my wife is using the TC harmonizer system of the Tyros 4...starts at about 42 seconds into the clip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubf-OJE_Xd4

The mike on the camera was so so in the clip.

Harmonizers do take a bit of tweaking regardless...at least the ones I've used.

Also, no harmonizer sounds as good, to my ears, as real vocal harmonies.

Hi to all,i have had experience with all the korg keyboards and many different brands external units,the korg pa3x and pa800 are the best at the moment also what i found with the ketron very good clean and great compresson effect the only thing that lacks on the ketron and dont forget very important is user scales that ketron dont have on there arrangers where all the balkan country's use alot,as for yamaha i have never had any experience with

+1

On the other hand, my harmonizer does not drink, never tries to steal my woman, and works really cheap!

I think this one drinks! Listen to Yamaha's VH2 totally embarrass itself at the end of this video...........

"TYROS TIPS BECAUSE WE CARE" (canned robotic overtones)



I'm sure the Tipsters care as they are always helping Tyros owners. I just don't understand how much Yamaha cares by putting that totally subpar vocal processing into an otherwise great sounding keyboard. If I, as a singer, naively forked out $6000 for a Tyros 5 without checking out the vocal processing, I would be livid. It has the same chintzy sounding VH2 that I rejected in the PSRS 950 (bought the 750 instead and continue to use my Digitech pedal harmonizer).

God Bless,
Don

Don, after a bit of tuning, I found the S-950 VH nearly as good as my TC Helicon Harmony M, and equally as good as my Digitech VR. Keep in mind, however, that it does take a bit of tuning to get the built in VH to sound good with your voice. Additionally, as Uncle Dave and DNJ will tell you, there's a real skill to singing with ANY VH system. It does require some practice to get it to sound great.

Cheers,

Gary

As a seasoned veteran I trust your judgement Gary. So what you are saying is that with the right setup and a quality singer that.........

"Tyros Tips Because We Care"

could be made to sound 100% better?

God Bless,
Don

Don ... I've never had a problem listening to your harmonies ...

Absolutely! There is a guy on the PSR Tutorial that provided some incredible harmonies using a PSR-2000. He later posted some songs that were absolutely outstanding. Check out his primer at http://www.psrtutorial.com/lessons/tune/vh/VHPrimer.html

The next chance I get to bring the S-950 into the office/studio I'll record an oldie that has been around longer than I have - "Cool Water." Lots of neat harmonies in this song, you make the call, though. Now, I probably will not be able to do this until next weekend - too damned many jobs tween now and then.

Gary

I already posted how to make the VH2 sound amazing ABOVE,..
get out your s950/Tyros 4/5 etc,.. look and read then watch the video stopping it after each setting....
follow my tips also & you'll be amazed.. !!..........

Can't believe how hard you work Gary. Do that at your leisure.

After what Donny says below your post, I'm concerned that I rejected the 950 without giving it a full chance. When I was trying it at the store the Yamaha rep was there and he did his best to tweak VH2 to my liking. Guess he was not a singer like you and Donny and didn't really know how to make it work. I do have to say though that I am not impressed with Yamaha's rep, Robbie's harmonies on "Dream, Dream, Dream" and "Good Luck Charm". They also sound canned and robotic.

God Bless,
Don

Even though I have the VH2 settings at the best they can be I rarely use VH in my songs when playing live....

Any samples of vocal harmonizers..Korg or Ketron Audya out there?

Unless I missed it, all I'm sseeing here are Yamaha samples. .and criticisms...?

http://www.synthzone.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/349618/3

Browse to bottom section of page. Maybe not your type of music, but does highlight the Audya's vocal harmonizer.

Cheers,

Henni

Many of the songs and videos on my website use vocal harmony. Some of each brand.
www.donmasonmusic.com

Here it is - used at the 01:02 mark:- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9pqM5tJbOo

Here's a quick recording I made of Cool Water using the S-950's VH when I first got the keyboard.

http://www.psrtutorial.com/perf/GaryD_files/Cool_Water_v-GD95.mp3

Gary

Interesting. Most sound good on the net.

I got a harmonizer question.

I'm trying to save to each song the type of harmony, trio 2 above or trio 1 above on my Tyros 4. No luck. When I save on registrations, harmony is checked off?

Doesn't seem to matter how I do it, the last setting I use for vocal harmony seems to be the one that pops up for each song in the rest of the file?

Hmmm?

Not sure why this isn't working, but it may have something to do with the VH save feature itself, which is in the VH settings area of the keyboard - not the registrations. I believe there is a way to link them to the registrations, but not exactly sure how this is done on the T4.

Gary

Thanks Gary. I'll give the PSR tutorial forum a try.

I did find a save function in the harmonizer system itself..saves the harmonies the way I set it up...but it doesn't link it to the registration.

Hmmm?

Update:

I figured it out.

Tx though.

??? Tyros does not have TC harmonizer.

Well ... "amazing" is a term that's best left for the listener to assign.

Amazing Dave compared to what it sounds
like an ootb Yamaha vh2 that is...... in no way does it compare to a korg tc helicon unit....just sayin'.....

Sorry, VH2...whatever that is?

Also, I have auditioned both the TC Helicon and Digitech units for guitar. Both were o.k...good for their intended use.

Thing is, my Tyros system(whatever it's called..or whomever makes it)seems to me to sound just as good as the TC Helicon and Digitech systems I auditioned.

For me anyway, vocal harmonizers don't replace the real thing. It's one thing to see one person on stage and hear harmony coming from one person. It's a totally different thing to have three folks on stage where you can hear the differences in their voices, see their expressions...hear the natural sound of harmony that way.

For me, vocal harmonizers just add interest to the song when I'm playing solo. Nice to have something a bit different at times rather than just the melody...sort of like changing keys in a song now and then.

guitpic ... I wholeheartedly agree ... a VH unit compared to two/three/four or more part LIVE harmony is analogous to an arranger keyboard being compared to a two/three/four or more piece live band ... there is no comparison, but absent the availability of LIVE singers and players, I have to appreciate the fact that I have a VH unit and a KB to work with ...

And I know all the arguments against working with a band, so I don't have to hear them again, but I will repeat, that working with the same 4 guys for 26 years is something I will never be able to replace ...

I won't beat this horse, but singing effectively with a harmonizer requires much more than good coordination to find the "on" button. Singing in a vocal group, or even a small ensemble requires a totally different style of phrasing. If you think just selecting "1 above" makes you sound like the Everly Brothers ... think again. I practice my vocals much more than my instrumentals because my audience is made up of VERBAL attendees, and NOT musicians. (not usually) Everyone thinks they can sing, and most really enjoy it, so I feature the voice ... I feature the arrangements and I am meticulous with my harmony treatments.

Some of my favorite medleys includs:
Mills Brothers, Andrews Sisters, Beach Boys, Doo Wop groups, Eagles, Beatles and even certain solo artists that feature elaborate choruses like "Me and Mrs Jones" or "Always and Forever" .... both sound dreadful with just one voice ... no matter WHO that voice belongs to. Then there's the specialty numbers .... I could do a whole master class on harmonizers in a solo rig. Wish I had time to do so.

Best quick tip? Sing SIMPLER when the button is on. Vocal groups listen to each other and phrase together. Use your dynamics too ... sneak in with a harmony or back off on one for effect. Listen to the Carpenters - they were masters at lush, creative backgrounds.

If you own a substandard harmonizer - stick to 1 or 2 extra voices and keep them close to your original pitch. Use compression and keep them wet (reverb) for the best blend. The better quality harmonizers do not need as much "sweetening" and can handle heavier loads. I never heard a Yamaha sound good (to me) with more than one voice on. As soon as you hit the second note, it looses something. VH2 was greatly improved , but mostly in performance ... not sound. If you do not consider harmony VERY important, then use whatever you have. If you are like me, and NEED that lush, dense blanket of sound in your shows ... nothing beats the TC stuff. Digitech comes close, but TC is my favorite.

Oddly enough, I've found that my harmonies generally sound better with very little effects. Maybe I'll try more reverb to see if Uncle Dave is right. He usually is!
I'm a "light" harmony user. Just enough to spice up the bridge or chorus sometimes, and generally one-above.
Wish I had the initiative to set up some elaborate backings such as Dave uses. I'm afraid I'd have to change my entire setup and use right hand to trigger the harmonies though.
What I do is working (because I am working so I probably will just continue as is.
This old dog is still capable of learning new tricks, but's he is pretty lazy and wants to just chew on the bone most of the time.

lately I feel too much VH adds to the falseness of a OMB & arranger Kb act ...so much smoke & mirror foolery makes the audience say...."WTF?" is going on here listening to all this with seeing only one person on stage,.. instead of concentrating on the artist talents and music. That's why I really turned back & weened myself using VH as I used to and just pepper some songs with it when needed but not much at all. I will however use VH when recording backing tracks a bit more to give the proper treatment for the song. I see acts all the time trying to use VH and it's a disaster...why?.... because they don't know how to use it correctly, or sing the whole song with VH on OMG!!!! First off you have to KNOW how to sing,.....Secondly you have to know what it's like or have the experience with a band, etc, .. to sing with other people so you can correctly infuse the VH into a song at the right times....and play at the same time all in sync. VH on a Arranger or external unit is an art form that must be honed to perfection or there's no sense using it.

Donny is correct - correctly using the VH systems is an art in itself. It takes a fair amount of practice, some fine tuning, and again, that word "Sparingly" comes into play. I even explain the vocal harmonizer to my audiences before I use it - I sincerely believe this is very important.

"Ladies and gentleman, if you've ever been to the Florida Keys, especially Key West, you will undoubtedly hear a lot of Jimmy Buffett songs. One of his most famous, of course, is Margarettaville, which pretty much everyone knows the words to. In order to provide the vocal harmony for the chorus in this particular song, I have a little black box in my setup, one that records my voice, then plays it back, in two-part harmony, a millionth of a second later while I'm singing. Now, no one can hear a millionth of a second delay - it's too quick to hear, but you will hear me singing live, and in harmony. Now, lets have some fun."

Then I kick off the intro, do the song, and they're all singing along with me, especially the chorus. And, we do have fun. Not only does this provide the audience with some insight of how all this comes together for an OMB act, but it provides them the opportunity to interact with me during the song.

Damned I love my job,

Gary

That sounds about right Gary, Don, Dave and Donny.

God Bless,
Don