Problems trying to play jazz on an Arranger KB

Well, there are quite a few but I've found that the biggest one for me is the so-called jazz turnaround. Even the common ones like the B3 diminished or the classic 'Lady Bird' turnaround are handled with difficulty by every arranger I've tried. I know that Scottyee has experimented a lot with 'rootless' jazz chords and I also know that Russ and Rory and probably Joe Ayala and a few others, know not only every jazz chord but also every jazz turnaround in the book. My
question is, how do you handle that very necessary function (the transition) with an arranger keyboard? Even when you play the 'right chords' for those two measures, it still doesn't sound right. Of course, you can play the transition with your right hand (assuming you've got the right voice on tap), but if the style is playing, that too could be a conflict. The only solution I see is playing manual bass (omiting the style part) through the transition and then quickly switching back to style play.

If I had to critique most of the jazz or jazz-oriented performances here, I would have to say that most people simply omit playing turnarounds. The result is that it keeps it from sounding professional. This is not an arranger putdown, simply a discussion about (and hopefully a solution to) this problem (or even if you think it IS a problem - maybe it's only me?).

This topic may be of little interest to most as it pertains mostly to jazz tunes or jazz-oriented standards. I recognize that it is less of a problem with Country, Rock, R&B, and hardly a problem at all with Rap and HipHop . What do you think?

chas

Chas, I'm working on my act again and doing a G Miller medley, with tricky jazz voicings and chords. My keyboard is able to handle these perfectly. I'm working on posting my stuff through my Zoom H. and can show you live

Zuki, that's great. I was basing my observations on my own experiments with my (admittedly outdated) PA1x, Tyros II, and BK7m. I would be interested in hearing the way your keyboard handles this. I may very well be missing something or basing my assumptions on 'old' technology.

chas

Chas,
What turnaround specifically, and what tempo are you playing? My PA900 seems to follow just what I throw at it ... although I don't play too fancy with the left hand.

All keyboards from any manufacture have their own way of doing things; however there are normally various different chord recognition systems available on them so it is just a case of finding one that comes close to how you want to play, and adapt to make the best of it.

Most jazz is improvisation and going with the flow, whereas arrangers need something that is regular and consistent. (Hence most professional players turn the auto features off and play their own left hand, adding a pedal board also helps as the bass becomes personal, rather than the more boring and repetitive system that the arranger plays)

Hope this helps

Bill

Dave, @140bpm. Try any 'standard' jazz turnaround ie. the so-called Lady Bird turnaround (Imaj7 – bIIImaj7 – bVImaj7 -bIImaj7) and tell me how you think it sounds on your board. Let me know the style you're using in case it's retro to my antique PA1x pro. Or maybe just the opening line on Foggy Day (that progression has sort of a built-in turnaround ). Like I said, I may be expecting more subtlety than is realistic but in any case let us know the style and tempo you're using.

chas

I'll check it out, Chas.

It's clearly the automatic bass which causes the main problem. The arranger can't predict the next chord you're going to play, and the bass movement is not able to lead to it. Instead it makes sudden jumps. I like using a pedal board, too.

Nothings perfect but there are always workarounds.

Chas I do turn arounds like if the last melody note in the first 4 bars is the 5th like a G in the key of C such as. Em7, Eb MAJ7, Ab MAJ7, Gaug or(Db7#9) so on and so forth.

I tried the turnaround you suggested here and it sounds great too as do many others on Jazz turnarounds. However, they are not conducive to the, tempo of 140 unless it is a full four bar turn around and each chord is held for 4 beats. The 2 beat for holding the chord on a two bar turn around won't work on any arranger. I use a jazz guitar for comping and can get by with things like that by having it turned up louder than the Acc just leave the drums and bass louder.

Those McCoy, Hank Jones, Bill Evans, Wynton and such chord turnarounds sounds best on ballads on an arranger like maybe at 55 to 75 or 85 BPM IMO. Of course I'm a sax man, what in the hell can I know.

Have you tried playing in full piano mode playing the bassline in the left hand syncopated fashion just before the beat ?

I think with auto bass, it's not possible to do anything but play the tune straight, with none of the inflections or inversions you normally use playing jazz.

The best you ca do is play left-handed bass. then, it's like playing a duo with a bad drummer...the guys we used to call "time keepers".


R.

I just recorded a simple jazzy tune and only used manual left and right hand piano together with jazz brush rhythm. Sometimes that's more useful than trying to use full arranger functions:

http://youtu.be/gSc2I-t4Vxw

BTW, this is a nice "jazz piano" sample included in the CP1 package you get for free for the MoXF flash board.

I think Rosetree and others got it, as far as I can understand your problem. I've played jazz and Standared tunes for years on arrangers and really never had a problem. It is the "clunky" bass jump you get if you change chords quickly. After a whie of doing it you can get your transitions smooth and work with the arranger . Its not perfect, especially for doing the subtle inflections your looking for. Nothing like a real drummer but then again nothing like a real band fo me.
Just hooked up my PK5 bass pedals to my BK9 and had a ball. Haven't played pedals in a long while but it came right back to me like riding a bike. Did a whole bunch of jazz organ stuff and am really appreciating more and more the clonewheel B3 in the BK9. Not something I use for my regualar tunes but nice to have onboard.

BTW some sax players know a lot, Its the drummers you have to watch out for !