Let's talk about monitors...

Going on in my attempts to re-build a recording environment in my home, I am now considering the purchase of a new (active) monitor system, one that doesn't cost more than 1000 euros or 1400 USD.
I have already done quite a bit of research and so have narrowed the choice to the models listed below and would love to hear your opinion, not only about them, but also about your own choices, and what has been your overall experience in this area.
Here are my candidates:

Adam A7X


Mackie MR8 Mk III

eventually coupled with the MR10S Mk III subwoofer



Genelec 8030 BPM



I have listed them in order of preference; I am presently unable to go and try them live, so had to rely on Internet reviews. What they have in common, besides the price range, is the weight (between 5 and 10 kg, or 12-24 pounds apiece) and -supposedly- the sonic quality.
Comments, opinions and suggestions are all more than welcome.
Thanks!

This Mackie model is not in the same league as the other two.

You mean above or below?
It's a new model: here is the review, just published on Harmony Central:

Mackie MR8 Mk 3 Review

Hi Dreamer

I use a handy piece of kit from Focusrite. Using a good pair of headphones you can reproduce, virtually, many different monitors a the click of a mouse. It works very well and is a very cheap alternative to expensive monitors.

Regards

Col

Col,

you are definitely a very wise man... and I could learn one or two tricks from you.

Focusrite VRM

Recording is a funny business, in that once you go to a certain level with one component, then every other component, ie. cables, mics, room acoustical treatment, etc., becomes a potential 'weak link' in the recording chain.

The Adam Ax7's, which rises to at least Project Studio level, would be my hands down first choice, but only if all other components were of equal quality. This includes the 'golden ear' of at least a semi-professional producer/mixer/masterer. What is the object of your recordings? How important is perfection. You can probably produce something with 90% of the quality with 30-40% of the cost of TOTL recording gear. I think your buying decisions must be based on the quality level (of the finished product) that you think you must have. JMO.

chas

Chas,

opinions are exactly what I am looking for, and yours is much appreciated.

I got these Rubicon Monitors from Frank at AudioworksCT and they have done a great job for my recording projects at home..
love the ribbon tweeters

The Samson Rubicon Active Ribbon Studio Monitors feature 2-inch Velocity Ribbon high frequency transducers that compliment a 2-way active system capable of reproducing playback in its most natural form. Ribbon drivers have no resonant color and even dispersion, unlike a traditional diaphragm tweeter. The ribbon driver itself has no added sound characteristics. They are completely neutral. Ribbon technology gives you clean accurate and precise listening, which is why these monitors sound so natural and lifelike, just like a studio monitor should.

Ribbon tweeters... like the Adam A7X... that's brilliant!
Thank you, Donny!

Sound on sound review of the Samson Rubicon

Andrea, if you are just recording, why not just use a quality headset, thus eliminating any problems with feedback looping, etc...? Just wondering.

Cheers,

Gary

A hair more gets you into the Mackie HR824's, which are quite a step up from the 624's, to the point that a subwoofer may not be needed at all.

I have had a pair of HR824's (the MkI's) for about ten years, and they have garnered a lot of praise from industry pros and other musicians. In fact, the first thing they ask is 'Where's the sub?!'

Gary,

First of all, I don't sing, so acoustic feedback is not a problem for me. Actually I have two headphones (Grado SR 80 and Sennheiser HD 497), but -even if the Grado is considered Hi-Fi, usually it's not recommended to use headphones to record or mix down a song because the perception is very different from that of a person who listens through speakers (be it a car stereo, a TV set or an Hi-Fi system). This is the reason why in a recording studio they have different kinds of loudspeakers (including very cheap, Lo-Fi radio ones) to have an idea of what the average Joe will hear, in his usual listening environment.
But... Colin came up with (maybe) a brilliant solution to this problem: the Focusrite VRM.

(Quote from the Focusrite site):

We’ve all burned CDs of our mixes so that we can listen to our latest creation on as many different systems as we can: the living room HiFi, the television, our friends’ studio monitors and so on. Then the process of improving the mix based on what we’ve heard begins. We might burn another CD to check the updated mix on the same systems in the hope that it sounds better second time around. We may not realise it but we are now ‘reference mixing’. This is why most studios have multiple pairs of speakers; so the engineer can reference the mix on more than one monitor. For most of us this is tough, due to space or budget constraints. That is until now…

The Solution?

Introducing VRM Box. The high-quality USB headphone interface with a difference. VRM stands for Virtual Reference Monitoring. It gives you the option of listening to your mix on multiple sets of speakers, in different rooms, just using headphones. This helps to overcome the problems associated with creating a mix that translates well on many speakers. Burning CDs to listen to your mix in different environments will become a thing of the past.

Mix anywhere, any time

There’s no substitute for mixing on high-quality monitors in a well treated room, however sometimes this ideal scenario is not possible; we might be on a train, in a plane, in a hotel room, on the tour bus or simply at home late at night not wishing to disturb anyone. VRM allows you to make critical decisions on your mix, knowing for certain that it will translate well in many environments.

Choose from 15 industry-standard studio monitors and speakers, in three different rooms

(End of Focusrite quote)

Now, Colin's solution is (theoretically) really brilliant, and I would hear more from him: in other words, does this VRM Box deliver what promises?
Come on, Col, spill the beans! (...or whatever you say in Lancashire)

A few YouTube videos about the Focusrite VRM:

Mackie HR824 Mk 2




Sound on Sound review of the Mackie HR824 Mk2

Col is a pretty smart guy, and I for one would heed his advice..

Good Luck,

Gary

Andrea,

I'm not sure if you've had your fill of "research" by now. By coincidence, I clipped out this article on "choosing studio monitors" from the December issue of Electronic Musician. It's been sitting on my desk waiting to be read.

Here's a link to the article "online."

Mark

http://www.emusician.com/prntarticle.aspx?articleid=153461

Thank you, Mark: a rather generic but still useful article.

Colin,

How do you know your are not tone deaf like me and I have nothing between my ears to make sense of it all, the world has gone mad Col. You might set it all up with your gizmo's and it might sound tinny to me. Your song is still ringing in my ears Colin that's what it is.

Dreamer. The Electronic Musician article is spot on with it's information participially about speaker placement is correct.
I'm now retired but most of working life I worked within the Hi-Fi Speaker manufacture. We also produced two models LS3/5A. LS5/8 Monitors for the BBC. I occasionally sneak a pair home for the weekend.

Hi Graham,

yes, I remember you working in this field.
What do you think of the Adam A7X (or the Adam speakers in general)?
Is their excellent reputation deserved?

Dreamer. Sorry not had experience of Adam A7X and it's all subjective between a different pair of ears.
Working in the sound field can sometimes be a disadvantage because I have become very critical of what I listen too which makes it difficult to get satisfied.

I'm a lover of headphones and although have a pair pro Sennheisers we happen to purchase a wireless set from a UK store LIDL £20 because the wifes hearing is limited...but surprise to find the excellent clean mid's and a very tight low bass, these to my ears out perform my Sennheisers.

Hi Andrea

The VRM Box works for me but I'm really not in the position to guarantee the accuracy of the simulations but there are relatively small differences in the TOTL speakers and marked differences in the budget ones, the LCD TV for instance sounds horrible. I always mix my songs using the VRM box I then tend two play the Mp3 files through my nEar4 monitors and also my PA system which is a pair of Behringer B212d active speakers.

The question of monitors is really very much a matter of personal taste, music to one pair of ears etc

I purchased my VRM box and my KRK headphones as a bundle for £129.00 but the box can be bought for approx. £50.00 on eBay.
It's probably worth a try even if you don't find it useful you could recover the cost without losing to much. BTW one of the simulations is for a set of Adam S2.5A Monitors.

If it would help I could record a file and send the output from the PC through VRM box to my Zoom and record the results with different monitor simulations so you could hear some of the differences.

Just listened to a couple of yours on CSS Songs I could try the box out on one of those if you wish.

Regards

Col

PS I've often wondered what my recordings sound like to other members on different audio equipment, could be interesting to pose the question though I fear you would obtain lots of conflicting opinions.

Nothing will be better than "high" end monitors.

BTW: Andrea, I think your initial selection is fine..Adams would be my choice of the group, but not backed by personal use..

For the poor folks...I have a formula (We all are not rich like Chas)....If you have a 3 way sound system (two units)(probally has to be more than a decade old)....try setting it up with a stereo 31 band eq..

Play 2 or 3 of your favorite (great mixed by professionals) cd's..
Listen in detail adjusting with the 31 band eq (moderately)..each frequencie...when you have a decent balanced sound for the 2or 3 cd's....That is the proper acoustic balance for your room..

Try it..it works...of course you need to have the ability to hear...so it won't help guys like Gary

If you don't have an old 3 way sound system...call Russ..he has everything

If anyone is on a budget ...

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/B2031A.aspx

Col,

yes, that would be fantastic!

Fran,

thank you for your opinion; I am indeed more and more tempted by the Adam.

Behringer makes also two bigger brothers, the B3030A and the B3031A, both with a ribbon tweeter:

P.S: Colin, could you try one of the songs done on the SD1?
They have more dynamics and so would outline better the differences among the different presets of the VRM.

http://www.csssongs.com/index.php/component/muscol/D/12-dreamer/32-guajira?Itemid=101

You won't ever see a pro mixing or mastering on a pair of headphones. The ear simply doesn't hear things in isolation, and artificial techniques to emulate different speakers is simple marketing hype. This is right up there with mike simulation software... you remember, the promise that you can make one mike sound like a much better one by using software. Hype.

You use headphones to check detail, especially if you can't get absolute silence in your listening environment. You might get a pro to say he mixes on them, but trust me... he's doing it for money (or free gear!). When in the studio, those nearfields and midfields are what he's listening to 99% of the time.

Hi Andrea

https://app.box.com/s/6jvs9dhic68vv6f6gsr9

Two songs

The sequence is

1. No VRM
2. Japanese White
3. Adam s2.5
4. KRK06
5. No VRM
6. Budget Micro
7. LCD flat screen
8. KRK8
9. No VRM

Not very scientific but it may give you an idea.

Col

Diki: Who said anything about mixing like the Pro's, for me it's about being able to produce a half descent recording without breaking the bank.

No disrespect to anyone here but how many, myself included, fully understands the way to use the raft of Plug-in's available on the modern DAW.

You can spend as much as you like on Monitors but it doesn't mean you will produce quality recording.

Hearing a problem within a mix is one thing sorting it is another story.

Col

Col,

wow... the differences are really impressive and do exist; I would say that I liked the Adam more than the Yamaha, but I am not sure when each exactly begins.
Do you remember (more or less) when you switched settings?
Also, did you go trough the entire series for both songs?
Thanks (I don't want to give you much trouble, so now I am going to listen again, trying to detect the timing of the transitions).

OK. I detect the following transitions:
30"
1' 39"
2' 15"
2' 44"
2'56"
3' 05"
3'22" End of the first song
3' 41" Second song begins
4' 02"
4' 31"
5' 00"
5' 14"
5' 28"?
5' 48"
6' 10"
6' 30" Second song ends

Hi Andrea

I used the same sequence on both songs.

I'll re-do the recording tomorrow and stop between changes to give you a better idea.

Col

So the sequence could be:

0-28" no VRM
29" Japanese white (Yamaha NS 10)
53" Adam S 2.5
1' 39" KRK 06
2' 15" No VRM
2'44" Budget Micro
2' 56" LCD flat screen
3' 05" KRK 8
3'22" End of the first song
3' 41" Second song begins > no VRM
4' 02" Yamaha NS 10
4' 31" Adam S 2.5
5' 00" KRK 06
5' 14" no VRM
5' 28"? Budget Micro
5' 48" LCD flat screen
6' 10" KRK 8
6' 30" Second song ends

Thank you Col.
You are too kind, really!

Hi Andrea

Tried a simpler approach, three speakers , Adam, Yamaha, Genelec, I then switch the VRM in and out as the playback progressed starting with the VRM off.


https://app.box.com/s/z2qmf5knxe3h5hfh2ub7

Hope this helps

Col

I record quite a lot and I use monitors and headphones. I have passive Quad 22L speakers and 909 amp plus an REL Sub that I sometimes use for monitoring to check low end. I also use an AKG k601 headphone that I drive from a dedicated headphone amp. I believe using the headphone as well is critical because so many people today listen with headphones via Ipods, Smart phones, etc. I also find that I can identify balance and panning issues easier with headphones ( of course you need good ones ). I find the AKGs to be very neutral and open.

So as an alternative you can also consider passive quality speakers such as Quad, Spendor, KEF, etc. and supply your own amplification. That may be more expensive but gives you more flexibility and I believe better quality.

Col,

many thanks again for your kindness and patience.
What I have found incredibly useful from these two audio clips are the differences between the different speakers. Given that Focusrite has quite a reputation for making great products, used in the best recording studios (like Abbey Road), one can trust them for being able to reproduce the sonic features of these different monitors.
Actually, after listening to your two recordings, I have included the KRK RP5 in my final selection, together with the Adam AX7.

KRK RP5




And, speaking of Focusrite, I will most likely buy one of their sound interfaces: either the Scarlett 18i8 or the Scarlett 18i20






As always, the key is not finding the best product of all, but the one that best satisfies our needs.

Joe,

you are a real audiophile! And you bring back a lot of memories... In the past I used to have a Quad 33 and a 303 (later replaced with a 405) and my dream was always to add to them a pair of Quad ESL.
Right now I have in my living room two Magneplanar SMGa, but for my recording and mixing purposes I need a couple of small, near field speakers, to place at ear level and that don't take up much space or weigh too much.
What you wrote about the usefulness of listening also through headphones is very interesting and I have taken note of the AKG: it seems that the 601 have been replaced by the 701: they are no doubt expensive, but I will check them as soon as possible.

Well, there's THOUSANDS spent by players with very questionable playing skills, obtaining the very highest quality arrangers when they cannot bring the fullest out of them... I see no difference here. TBH, the lower your mixing and mastering skills, the better the gear you need. A skilled engineer can get pretty good results out of almost anything, because he knows how to compensate for it, but the amateur or semi-pro really needs as few impediments to his limited skills as he can afford to have.

If you are playing through monitors with deficiencies in certain audio ranges, it matters little how much command of plug-ins and signal processing gear you have. Bad monitors will color the sound, and headphones will screw up your soundfield awareness. There's no easy shortcut (or nobody would EVER buy costly monitors!). No offense, but if all anyone wants is HALF decent, a cheap pair of iPod headphones will do, a crappy set of computer speakers will do, the built-in speakers in your cheap arranger will do...

But if you've spent thousands on a decent arranger, obviously, HALF decent isn't what you are after..!