When I'm wrong ... I say I'm wrong...

I stole that quote from Jerry Orbach in "Dirty Dancing" and it fits the situation to a TEE.

I hereby retract all my whining, complaining, outspoken criticisms of the PA900s TC vocal processor. It's such an eyeopener for a man of "seasoned" age to be reminded of the simple truths sometimes, and thanks to my dear friend Fran .... that's what has happened today. Listen up:

ALL MY CONCERNS ABOUT THE TONE ARE RELATED TO THE UNBALANCED CABLE. I don't know how I missed that, because I used outboard preamps, in-line mixers and different mics with the same results. Today, I hooked up an impedance transformer to my EV 767a mic and BAM! it's clean. (I feel so stupid)

I've never had that issue before, so I was reluctant to try it, but it's a 100% improvement. My sincere apologies to Korg and TC Helicon for my premature evaluation. (no nasty comments, please!)

Sigh ... old dog, new trick learned.

I'll fiddle with the settings and post an new audio demo this afternoon. As silly as I feel ... I'm also VERY EXCITED that I can use this thing the way I wanted to!!!!!!!!!!

Yayyyyyyyyyyy!!!!!!!!!!

One quick thing I tried was to process only the harmonies through the dynamics section - it allows more natural expression from my lead signal, and with the impedance matching transformer - it's much, much cleaner. I'll make several records to confirm, but I'm SO RELIEVED that I found (rather FRAN found) the problem to my sonic woes. Whew.

(Nobody puts Baby in a corner) LOL

Oh my God!!!!!!!!!!! This is awesome news my friend. Can you testify also that the 900 is everything and even more than the 800?

Keep smiling..........we are all so blessed

Glad to see you have that all cleared up Dave...now, full steam ahead on your new keyboard!

Ian

Good, good, good!
Now you post some to "repair" the error!
Please try that one thing, with the hard panned harmonies and lead voice in the centre. And maybe you can do a harmony-only demo. I am curious how it sounds now, with the proper cable.
Thanks!

I think I mentioned the unbalanced part in an earlier post. I'm glad it turned out to be something so simple.

I must confess, though... at that price point, what on earth are Korg doing cutting THAT corner? That's a pretty ridiculous design decision, to make the mike in unbalanced on a $2000 arranger, when everyone that buys one is going to have a balanced, low impedance mike. They probably saved themselves $5 in parts. That's pretty much the definition of boneheaded!

The PA800 had a switched balanced/unbalanced input (automatic) TRS input... why did they mess with that?

OK - here's 2 test runs in "cleantown"
One with arranger and one with manual bass.
I'll fiddle with levels all day and make some better ones tonight. I'm off ALL DAY to play!

Yeah, what a difference!

Good news Dave, human error eh? lol ....as for the demos...
Fly Me excellent!! & clean!

....but to my ears cab driver VH for some reason the VH doesn't sound quite right verses the stand alone unit or PA3x for that matter unless its your setting..?

I wish I had your persistence as you know where that KB would be if I had these problems..

Ain't it amazing how the obvious just sometimes up and kicks you square in the butt!

Good luck,

Gary

Great singing, as always, Dave.

I must confess, not that impressed by the VH yet. But maybe that's just settings. I have to confess, I really don't like that big block harmony sound, even on some of the best standalone VH's, but that's mostly a musical choice. If you listen to most of the real groups that do that, you rarely hear them all block 100% of the time. If the harmonies don't split off now and again from the lead, it just sounds a bit contrived, to me.

I'd be a LOT more interested in what the VH does in the way of one female or one male tenor above your voice, or one up, one down and no doubling on the melody. That's probably a lot closer in voicing to 99% of all harmony background stuff out there. Block voicing is one thing, but one voice VH is the real test of whether it sounds real or not.

Looking forward to hearing some more. Your voice always makes me feel good!

Great input, thanx guys.
I hear ya, Donny - the settings for the block harmonies are so deep that I need to fine tune them. I'm used to the VLT2 already, and this one is not quite there - I'm just glad my lead signal is clean at least.
Gary - right on ... never too old to learn from a mistake.
Diki - I'll make a new recording to address that 1 up and 1 down scenario for you. I often use it that was ... I'm just excited about being able to USE IT period, that I raced into a few demos. I'll know alot more tonight after a day of tweaking. We'll agree to disagree about the big block sound - I pattern my style after the Lettermen, Four Freshman, Manhattan Transfer and they almost ALWAYS have all four voices going in sync. It's a treat to have a counterpoint harmony, but I'd have to pre-record something to utilize that ... and I do, quite a bit. I have a Beach Boys medley, Drifters Medley and a nice doo-wop backing of "In the still of the night" that I made years ago, and still use.
More to come!!!!

Thanks, Dave. Yes, I think if I was into using BV's at all when solo, I think I'd rather record them and use an MP3, simply to get away from the block sound or having to tap dance them in and out in the right spot.

But I am still a bit unsure of how much I can do that simply can't be done by one person without breaking my audiences faith in whether I'm PLAYING it all or it's simply just karaoke. I try to keep my backings to bare rhythm section as much as possible, and play all the parts I can, but add in a bunch of harmonies, and I'm not sure if I'm crossing that believability line.

TBH, your voice is so good, I'm not sure I'd want ANYTHING to compete with it..!

Thanx Diki,
I know there's a fine line between believability and shmaltz, but somehow ... it all works with my crowd. I guess they see the effort, they see my eyes at all times and I turn everything off a few times each set and just pound the keys and sing - they seem to respond to anything I throw at them.
I just worked up "Wait for me" by Daryl Hall (solo version) and I debuted it this week - the manager was so into it, he just sat down for the entire number and listened. No rhythm - just piano and some string pads. I DID kick in the harmonizer on the chorus sections ... it was wonderful

Dave ... glad you got it worked out ...
You are one of the guys on this forum I would PAY to see and hear perform ... keep 'em comin' ...

I have paid to watch and hear Dave - it cost me two dinners. Whoops! I ate the dinners. Sorry about that, Dave.

Gary

Wow Dave, the clarity was great! I'd love to meet you sometime. I'll have to get up your way for sure sometime next summer.

All the best,

Joe

I've known Dave for 10 years or so. Hope to meet him someday.
DonM

I'm all for a meeting! Let's find some time ... gonna be tough, but maybe when the kids go on winter break after Christmas! The south would be a nice change in Late December!

Diki said :

TBH, your voice is so good, I'm not sure I'd want ANYTHING to compete with it..!

It is rare that we both agree on the same issue bit I have said it before , you have gold in your voice ,why obscure it with silver ?

Come on down Dave, I'll find a Cajun Redhead for ya while you're here!
DonM

Redhead? Did someone mention redheads????????

A Cajun redhead? WOW! Now that could be a real painful combination for UD.

I'll believe it when I see Dave cross the Mason/Dixon Line at a high rate of speed and fuel consumption!

Gary

Hey ... I just might do that.

Remember THIS??????
Mmmmmm

Oh my ... the green eyes, the freckles ... I'm in deep, babe.

Back to the subject!

OK - a few more revelations about how stupid I am.
1.
I guess when I first got the 900, I was so used to the ultra-light keybed (Yamaha) action, that I adjusted the sensitivity to a similar response and it made the piano much too loud for the mix and the tracks. That issue has now been resolved by setting the sensitivity to a medium number, instead of a soft setting.
2.
You've all heard about how the mic NEEDS to be a hi-z signal ... use a transformer cable for best results. I tried an outboard preamp, but I was so frustrated at that point that I really didn't fuss enough - I'm sure a mic pre would do the same thing, if it has 1/4" outs and you don't mind extra gear to lug and plug. I prefer simple ... as long as it sounds good, and it does ... now.
3.
Styles - there are SO many conversions out there and so far ... almost NONE sound worth a crap without major tweaking, so I am now in the mindset of our Eastern musician friends - it's time to program or modify what I really need. No one is going to make this an "Uncle Dave" signature model but me, so that's my next quest. As soon as school starts again (next week), my summer schedule will relax a bit and I plan on spending time each night in making the styles more and more what I need. The problem is not that Korg makes bad styles - the problem is that they made TERRIFIC styles 15 years ago and got bored with the same-ole/same-ole and started doctoring them up and fancifying them ... now they're too fancy for MOTR work. I want simple patterns. I have lots of ballroom trained dancers that need a structured beat - I'll provide the fluff with my chords and vocals, but I want Ringo on the job ... and SOON!
(and that's all I have to say about that) ... thanx, Forrest.

Lastly, I have to reiterate how much my dear friends on this forum have helped me in this quest for "the sound" - it's been a particularly hard transition for me. Could be age. Could be product. Maybe a combination of the both, but I honestly can't remember having so much trouble making a new instrument "mine" in the past 2o years or so. They ALL worked great right away for me. Go figure.

So, off to the store to grab a spare transformer cable and then - back to the editing room!

Thanx guys and gals .. I LOVE this forum. Always have - always will.

one more time UD and I'll shut up:


Do you think the 900 is on par, better or worse than the 800? I love the 800, but did not like the 500/600. I am trying to make sure the 900 is not off the 600 platform.

I think it's a vast improvement on the 800 in these areas:
1) key feel - it's fantastic
2) size/weight ratio - perfect size in my opinion.
3) sounds are improved ... more DNC ... cleaner guitars
4) TC Helicon says that the internal units are almost identical, but only designed by TC - Korg assembles them on site 100%.
5) better touch screen and more ergonomic layout - so many cool buttons
6) MP3 recording - did the 800 do this? I forget, and did the 800 have the chord sequencer?

For the size/weight/keyfeel and sounds alone - I'd rather have this on my stand. I've owned the 800, and it was not of the same caliber.

Here are 2 demos.. one made before I adjusted the mic a bit and one with a better master EQ. (I think)

Hi Dave, they say the only stupid question is the one you don't ask, so here goes. What's a transformer cable?

I currently use an unbalanced TS to female XLR cable to fit in to my Shure PGXD4 wireless receiver. According to the specs of that the PGXD4 is an impedance balanced configuration.

So, in your opinion, would you use a different cable? If so, what?

Many thanks for pioneering this for us!

Graham,

Much of this will depend upon the mic you are using and if the impedance of the input system matches that of the mic. If everything matches up pretty closely, then an impedance matching transformer adapter is not necessary, and it can sometimes cause problems.

If the output of your wireless receiver is going to the keyboard's line in then nothing more is needed. Most of the wireless systems are line out voltage and match up just fine with any line in system.

Hope this helps,

Gary

Well Graham,
I've never had to use a transformer cable since the 80s, but apparently, Korg has designed a mic input that really is quite fussy about impedance.
Here's the simplest way I can describe why you need it:
All mics are either hi or low impedance (That's the resistance that the mic creates in the energy path to the amp), so a low impedance mic will present a very small level of resistance to the input, and a high impedance mic will produce quite a bit more. Makes sense, right?

In the past, I've used a cable that had an XLR at the mic end and a 1/4 at the amp end and it simply connected the pins from the mic to the tip and sleeve of the jack. That used to be enough, but in a more particular setting, like this new Korg ... the built in mic input EXPECTS a high gain signal, and if you don't use a transformer (or transformer cable) the impedance will be mismatched. Like the round peg/square hole analogy.

A simple in-line transformer will raise the impedance of a low-z mic to match the impedance of the Korg input, so there is no signal loss. Signal loos translates into less than beautiful tone and clarity. You can get transformers all over, but they are about 3-4 inceh long and will stick out of your keyboard, just BEGGING to be bumped into and broken, so I recommend a cable with the transformer built right in, IF you're using a Lo-z mic, like a Shure SM57,58 or the EV 767, 757, 747 etc. There are high z mics out there (Radio Shack, Best Buy), but the sound quality is not up to what you're probably used to, so I think the cable is a better solution.
Check this out and call one of our dealer friends:

http://www.rapcohorizon.com/p-62-transformer-microphone-cable.aspx

Good luck!

I got a chance to check out Dave's PA900 this afternoon...and I pretty much agree with Dave's opinion compared to the PA800...without the "fantastic" comment

The keybed is surpizingly way better than any of the PA series (Speaker models)..First thing I did was check under the keys for weights

The larger touch screen is better than previous models..

I still have a problem with the effects set up, and the design of the harmonizer lacks what I am use to..

For a grand less ..street price..why would anyone want a PA800?

Come on, Fran. Everyone knows it has already been decided by the experts that key feel is absolutely unimportant..!

Nice to see you get this worked out, Dave...it seems to be quite an improvement over the PA-800, and, now that you have the microphone issues under control(kudos to Fran for his expert advice), you will be able to fully exploit your cool new arranger.

It's nice when we find an instrument that serves our needs very thoroughly...I feel the same way about my Tyros4.

No more searching...just pure playing/performing enjoyment.

Ian

Wow! This is enough good news for me Thanks. I'll get one on order soon.

Zuki, are you considering a return to gigging in the near future? I have taken some time off (1 year) to rework a few things, and I don't really miss it much yet, but, I'm guessing I'll soon be wanting that nice feeling we get from performing.

Will you do the same type of gigs, or do you have a new plan?

You were a big fan of the PA-800 (and PA3X I believe as well) so I'm guessing you won't take long familiarizing yourself with the PA-900...did you keep your previous performance settings?

Ian

Hi Ian,

Not performed since 3/11. Still have my hands full with a day job, but thought about working on material for a few months to see how I feel then.

Doesn't seem the 900 loads in 800 stuff that easy (yes, kept my sets).

Body is not young and I'd only do 6 - 10 a month.

How about you?

UD ... what Elec piano voice did you use for the first version?
thank you

Thanks Gary and Dave, I understand the theory better now. I have written to Shure support to get their opinion on the cable I should use for my specific wireless system. It does not say whether it's hi-z or lo-z.

Well, Zuki, I don't want to get too far off Dave's topic, but I'm working on getting a duo together next spring with a well known guitarist/vocalist. He is also retired from his day job, and wants to work about the same frequency as I do, which would be no more than twice a month.

At 64, and although I am enjoying my retirement, I'm realizing a few more limitations, but I still want to do some playing besides performing here at my apartment for friends who come by to listen.

I worked in a similar (guitarist/vocalist and keyboards) duo when I was living in Newfoundland some time ago and it was a lot of fun. Plus, I liked the social atmosphere and, of course, the challenge of doing interesting arrangements (as well as the extra loot...ha ha!). We played at a big fancy Yacht Club twice a month. There are a few such clubs here on Cape Breton Island, so it will be worth a look.

If I could sing even half as good as you, Dave, DonM, Gary and Donny (and other fine vocalists on SZ) I'd probably do a single, but I'm only good for backup vocals and the occasional song, and the duo setup seems to be a better sell around the area. Time will tell. At least I have the gear part of it looked after and paid for.

The PA-900 appears to be a fine instrument...hopefully you can find a workaround for loading your old sets. We were lucky to have Michael Bedesem and Jørgen to make special programs to let Yamaha arranger owners use data (registrations/styles) from older instruments, in newer ones. Not perfectly, in some cases, but still a great time saver.

Maybe someone at Korg can do the same for you guys?

In any case, the best of luck with any future endeavors.

Ian

Well that was quick. Shure say, since I have a 1/4 inch connection on the PGXD4 receiver use that in this case. Makes sense. I'll try it out this weekend.

Generally, unless it specifically says TRS only, any 1/4" output is going to be unbalanced. Some things are set to be balanced if you use a TRS, and unbalanced if you use TS 1/4" jacks.

But it's rare to find a 1/4" output that is balanced ONLY.

Aw man... Fran asked me that same question - I don't remember!
I know it has a stereo pan in in and I THINK it was a suitcase preset. I'll try and find out.

I highly recommend it ... and, yes - the key feel "IS" Fantastic. Fran is old and tired from lugging that monster G70 around - he has no control of his facilities anymore - It's a wonder they still let him drive.

Hi Joe..."fiddle" accompaniment is not one of my strong points, although I have managed to play behind one of the local players using my arranger, of all instruments . Certainly no where near as flexible as a piano (some fiddlers have their own "sense" of timing, if you know what I mean) .

My favorite fiddler is Natalie MacMaster, who is not only easy on the eyes, but one of Cape Breton Island's best players...she was one of the first "traditional" players to use a Hammond B-3 on some of her recordings (it blended perfectly with the fiddle sound). Another favorite fiddler is the Cape's "wild boy", Ashley MacIssac, a far edgier player than Natalie, and, like her, several times a music award winner.

Cape Breton Island is a lovely place to live....glad you could visit our little sanctuary.

Ian

I'll vouch for that, Ian - I've got family in Sydney. If anyone's into Celtic music, then there's the annual Celtic Fall Colours festival, I think it's called. Great music in gorgeous settings.

Style issue is pretty standard for Korg and the other reason that Yamaha is getting away with not so great hardware and drums.

Korg should invest in simple style writing and mainly on 8/16/ballad/dance/ ( not funk and rap)4/4 area with not so busy bass lines.(need more 8 beats than new age/jazz funk styles).Yamaha knows exactly how to do it.
Korg also have to fix occasional hiccups after the fills(even in some 900's styles)
The term "repetitive " in 4/4 styles short measures (but simple) does wonders as accompanying vocals.Ringo's beat work for most songs.No crazy fills and in your face riffs which are good for one song and can't use else where.

When you demo Korg styles ,they are not repetitive and good to listen if played by itself (16 bars with over riffs including relatively busier and unconventional bass and ac 1-3 lines at the 4th/8th/12th and 16th bar, minor fills on the first two sounds good but once you sing on top of it (even with the heavy muting), insufficiencies come up ,mainly busy bass and ac lines in 3rd or 4th variations .They also have to kill some of the song specific styles with riffs and over recognizable famous song.
So what happens? Can't use that style even though you lIke the drum pattern and the groove unless you do heavy editing with mediocre results (end product cant compete with the competition.

Only the western arrAnger players who use arranger styles as the main act will notice and report /complain about this particular problem.(not talking about SMFers or drum machiners(LH bass/RH piano players).Again not talking about mid east,Balkans or East Eurp music.Maybe Korg doesn't care since their main arranger market is mid east/Balkans.
Same is true for Yamaha (targeted audience or most of the TOTL/MOTL sales come from US/uk and Asia(east and south east).

The busier more funky styles are precisely why I prefer korg over any other arranger ! Everyone has different needs and that's why there is such choice .

Could not disagree more here. ALL styles in the nineties were pretty boring due to the fact that they had 4 bars only. Korg was the first to shy away fromt this. It all comes down to tweaking my friend. You can not add what is not there, but you can simply take away what is too much or not right according to your hearing.

regards,
John

UD - any thoughts on how the PA900 compares to the PA3X in these areas?
Thanks!

Hmmmm ... compare the 3x to the 900, OK:
1) Key feel - comparable, edge to the 3x
2) Size/weight - edge to the 900 ... lighter AND has speakers
3) even as far as I remember - both fantastic.
4) TC - 3x is better, but now that I'm impedance matched, the 900 is a close second - better than Roland or Yamaha for sure.
(Fran ... don't even weigh in here - we know ... the G70 rocks)

5) screen seems for consistent on the 900 - maybe it's calibrated better, or just fresh and new - both great
6) recording - seems even here too.

The edges:
900 - price, speakers
3x - harmonizer, sliders, multiple outs, XLR mic in, (sampling?)

If the 900 had an XLR mic input, and dual outs - it'd be really hard to beat the value. It's hard to beat right now, IMHO.

Thanks, sounds along the lines of what I thought.
The PA3X seems to be working well for me, but the PA900 sure seems like it has some powerful bang for the buck...
Happy you got things working, and enjoy!

I really do love it - the speakers make the sacrifices all worth while for me!
Tonight I used the PA900 - into the Bose Compact (no mixer) - no iPad, no outboard anything ... my mic - (with adapter!), keyboard sounds - Bose stick = awesome coverage and great reaction from the crowds.

Slightly off topic . . .
I had a job out on a lake Saturday, about an hour and a half away. I got there and had forgotten my Tascam recorder, but wanted to record some stuff to see if recent tweaks helped or hurt.
Anyway, I had not used the internal recorder at all, but I found it was really easy and quick to use and it worked great. Just push SHIFT and RECORD, then start. When the song ends, push Stop. It automatically saves to Take 1, Take 2, etc, or you can rename. It's faster to rename later.
By default it saves to the HD, or you can elect to save directly to the USB drive. Transferred to PC when I got home. Everything was clear, good levels and unfortunately it sounded exactly like me.
Just another great feature on the PA3X. There are many more I haven't even touched yet.
DonM

Don,

It works exactly the same way on the Pa900.

I really am liking this keyboard - wonder when Korg will release the Pa4x?

Bill G

^ This. The lack of sliders, EC5 input, and an XLR input swayed me away from the Pa900. Onboard speakers are of no concern to me, but I have to have the best onboard harmoniser. Now, if the Pa4X has the 900's screen in addition to the above, then it sounds like my next board.

There was nothing wrong with the 3x screen .. I think this one is just newer and calibrated better, that's all. The 3x sounds perfect for you.
If Korg is smart - they'll release a PA950 with XLR and and audio in feature - raise the price $300-400 and they can still keep a market for both models.

One thing I'd like to see Korg do is copy the Yamaha "random play" feature in the audio player.

I wish I sounded like you !!! ...

You're a sweet-talkin' devil, Tony. Are you married? Can you cook?
DonM

Yes, - 50 years Nov 23rd... and Yes ... and so can she ...

Short style's don't bother me (4 bars or so). But that's because I'm PLAYING most of it, not floating a one note melody over what is 99% machine.

Try doing more of the comp, try letting your left hand do more than a pad. It does wonders to disguise a repetitive style!