Just how important are ethics in this business?

During a recent discussion here, I mentioned that because a manufacturer allows an employee at a trade show and at other times to sell mainstream products directly to consumers in spite of having designated dealers with protected territories, I would never buy from either the distributor or the individual (who, incidentally, asked me not to ever tell an authorized distributor about the offer).

A participant in the discussion said that, because that was an issue he didn't have to deal with, it made no difference. He liked the product line and the individual and what I consider an unforgivable ethics violation didn't matter to him.

Does it (questionable ethics) matter to you? Would it impact taking a job or not or buying a product or not?


Russ

I reply only because I know this "participant" personally.

Ethics is a wonderful thing. If one believes in it & apply it, it effects EVERYTHING in ones life. It effects the taxes one pays, the truth one always tells, the honest relationship with one's spouse, to name but just a few. There are a great deal more.

But alas, I'm only another end user who buys a lot of stuff on a daily basis, the ethics behind it completely unknown to me at the time. "Cut my nose to spite my face" comes to mind. Some, who admit that something is an outstanding product, will live without it to prove a point.

Hell, I live in a corrupt country, but some of your governors beats even these, yet you bow to them on a daily basis... Mmmmm...

Just my 2 cents maybe worth considering. I'll not say anymore.

Henni

There are always things on the news that move me and others to boycott products or services. But with this current economy as a backdrop, many who don't like, say W**mart because of their labor/business practices,my avoid it for awhile , but are eventually going to go back instead of paying $100 more for that TV or what have you.

If convenience, time, and most of all $$ is not an issue for some, than boycotting a place or a product works better. Economics dictate this for many however, and when things are tight as they are now, principal loses to personal affordability.

Experiencing the problem yourself vs. getting the info from the media makes a difference too. People are not always believing what they hear. 60 minutes does an expose' a week, but for everything they reveal about a business or individual, there are many more that escaped the cameras. This perpetuates the a common reaction of "everybody in that business does it- this one just got caught or revealed"

Russ, you are my good friend and I know about your problem and respect you for speaking up. Of course what happened was wrong.
However, I think most of the problem NOW is with the distributor. They have not shown much interest or expertise in developing their marketing system. I had a relationship with them for a while and they are really nice folks but just don't seem to make a priority of this particular branch of their import operation. I must say they treated me great and fairly.
But, if it weren't for AJ, there most likely wouldn't be any support for Ketron in the US at all by now.
I think he took a bad situation and made an opportunity to build his business from it. There is no disputing that he knows the product from the inside out. He is in on development of the product from the ground up. He flew directly from the factory in Italy to our little puddle here in Louisiana with the first Audya to reach the states. Even in that early stage of infancy it sounded fantastic. He told us to be patient and it would be truly great in time. And it was, in around three or four years!
Evidently he has the approval and blessing of both the distributor and Ketron Italy. I only hope he is training someone to step in if, or when, they are needed.
Maybe it's time to consider forgiving this particular trespass and hope some good has come of it.

Plan B is we will fly to New Jersey and buy the distributorship.
With your marketing expertise and my sly wit, movie star looks and sparkling personality we could transform the entire industry!
We'll hire Diki for Public Relations Director. Rory can be our famous name endorser. Henni will handle our South African operations. Gary can entertain prospective dealers on his yacht. DNJ will handle all Ebay sales. Fran will show him how.
We'll have a Brubeck model that only has Jazz styles in it.
Chas can be corporate pilot and consultant for creating B3 sounds. Oh the possibilities are endless.

DonM
P.S. Don't be mad at me, you don't pay me to be just a yes-man.

Now that imaginary staffing is funny I don't care who you are..

Russ,

If the product was so good and you could not buy it anywhere else and it blew your mind you might need to think about ethics a bit deeper, that's if you really wanted it. Maybe it's not that good, your can by the same elsewhere and it ain't blown your mind, Russ life is much too sort, live and let live, if the manufacture ain't worried why should we, anyway more to the point and much more seriously, how are you keeping. Anyway how can you measure how good a bunch of style is, beauty is the the ears of the beholder, what, did you say... bit a truth in what DonM says too

Don, as usual, DELIGHTFUL! You're talking to a pretty "hard-liner".

I stopped taking the Wall Street Journal after nearly 50 years because of the terrible breach of journalistic ethics on the part of Rupert Murdock.

This thing with Ketron is a really big deal to me, probably because I have been involved in setting distributor/dealer relationships and policy most of my working life. And, I have fired lots of people for doing exactly the same thing. What went on was blatantly wrong, at least in the US, and I can't imagine EVER trusting or believing a person who knew he was wrong and did it anyway. It cost Ketron several long-time dealers.

I have found instruments I really wanted at NAMM before, and the honest guys take my name and have an authorized dealer call me.

The part that really angered me was the, "Don't tell any dealer about this deal" part. The dude knew it was wrong; did it anyway and did it again over the phone several months later.

And Tony (good to hear from you, by the way), you're right. If Ketron boards were so superior that nothing could replace them, some would probably adjust their activity, take a big swallow and buy Ketron anyway. It's GREAT equipment, but less than 25% of my work involves arrangers, so living without a Ketron, or ANY arranger is certainly possible.

Hey, Don! Want a good Midjay back? (LOL)!


Russ

Business bust same week....

Just let me write the ad copy and the manuals... might get something readable for a change!


I think that ethics and good business go hand in hand. Let's not kid ourselves. The minute Russ made public what he was offered at the trade show, every Ketron dealer in the country knew about it. If they didn't already know (which they may well have done).

Now, under those circumstances, are you even a little bit surprised how bad Ketron's dealer network is, in numbers, volume and having stuff in stock? By allowing this breach of ethics (TBH, I still haven't figured out why the other dealers haven't sued Ketron's US distributor for breach of contract if they were promised territorial exclusivity) Ketron have essentially guaranteed that no-one wants to touch their line with a barge pole, knowing they can (and are) being undercut by some 'super-dealer' with no territorial restrictions, better access to Ketron Italy, and a lock on the only upgrade path for the Audya.

Unfortunately, even in this day and age of internet stores, most people that are willing to drop $5000 on a keyboard prefer to be able to see it, play it, and talk with knowledgeable sales staff before they offer their credit card up. Ketron have made sure, by allowing that, that the vast majority of people in the US live too far away from a Ketron dealer to make the drive, especially in this era of $4/gal gasoline!

Ethics violations have consequences, often unforeseen and unintended. I believe Ketron's US distributor, whether they knew or not what would happen, have caused their own demise in the long run.

BTW, I'm a HUGE fan of Mackie's ad copy and manuals!

All manuals should be this simple to read, fun, funny and still be fully informative. Whoever does their work is a genius!

Well said, Diki. The only thing I can add is, some of the dealers simply dropped the line, rather than sue, because they concentrated on the manufacturers and distributors who supported there efforts. In their opinion, when you add in availability and margin problems, plus no advertising co-op support, the line simply wasn't worth fighting for.

With these kinds of shenanigans, Ketron simply wasn't worth the time and aggravation.

Doubts? Just check with the West coast long time dealer and member here who doesn't sell the line anymore.


Russ

Russ,

Amazing how you kept back all these years until someone popped up being extremely enthusiastic about his Audya & spreading the word wherever he can.

Now, I cannot help but wonder what your TRUE motives really are... I hope you own slate is as clean as you make it appear to be buddy. Sooner or later the things we do tend to come back to haunt us.

Henni

Henni, I haven't kept back at all. Over the years, you'll find I have posted the same information every time the subject came up. I even responded to an inquiry here on the "zone" from a representative of the distributor. Outlined the incidents in detail. Everything suddenly went silent on their end.

Look, I have my opinions, which I know are conventional by any US business standard.

I'm not perfect, but that's not the point...in fact that has nothing to do with anything here.

You have the right to say whatever you want about the brand.

As an owner of 4 pieces of Ketron equipment, I WISH I were a supporter.

Considering business practices, the loss of the main dealer I counted on, and all the problems reported by others, I choose not only not to support them but to warn others about my experiences. I'm certainly not the only one who has first hand knowledge/experience in this sad scenario.

If it doesn't bother you, GREAT! Play on, and enjoy the hell out of the product and upgrade. That's your right.

Pointing out what I think are major negatives is my right.

You have chosen your path, and I have chosen mine. Believe me, there is no other motive at all, but to let people know of what I think are serious issues before they make a purchase. I only own one non Ketron arranger; an old (but unplayed) Roland X9 (I believe), so, from a financial standpoint, I'd be much better off as a supporter/player.

Considering your glowing review, I'd say, if either of us had a motive or method to our madness, it would be you.

You choose to play the brand.

I choose not to.

You are talking equipment.

I am talking business ethics.

We're not even on the same page.

Let's just drop it and move on.


Russ

Not that it is needed (hope you don't mind Russ ) but I can say that Russ speaks the truth.

I (and many others) have known about his stance on Ketrons (at a company level - nothing personal afaik) "laissez-faire" attitude towards official dealers for a long time.

Russ has posted publicly many times these issues over the past years. That you have not noticed or read them, is not really Russ' fault is it (no offence intended)

Dennis

YES! I agree - they have great information and it's FUNNY!

Hi Russ & Dennis,

So how many times do you intend to "punish" this individual before you are finally satisfied... Do you receive same for your mistakes or do you not have any...

Henni

Love the old Mackie ads and manuals. Haven't seen one in years though.
All right, Russ, I yield.
Are you ready for Plan B?
DonM

Plan "B" - Looks like I need to buy a bigger boat! What the Hell, Carol will understand. (fingers crossed)

Gary

Quote from Henni:

Hi Russ & Dennis,

So how many times do you intend to "punish" this individual before you are finally satisfied... Do you receive same for your mistakes or do you not have any...

Henni



Henni, don't drag me into this - I was only giving some corroboration to what Russ was saying It is the first and only comment I am making.

The "discussions" re the audya don't interest me one bit sorry

Henni... this 'evangelism' has gone on long enough. To sit there and actually accuse a member here of some hidden agenda because he dares speak the truth (and that you are actually willfully unaware of the history of this subject demonstrates how you haven't even TRIED to research it, and simply stamped your own interpretation on it) about something you feel uncomfortable about is extremely low manners.

If you can't grasp that people feel differently about ethics as you do (you apparently care nothing about them), at least have the decency to allow them this without grafting some sort of ulterior motives on them. Russ is quite easily the most honest, generous and giving person on this forum, and any search backwards through his posts will easily show he lives an honest and forthright life.

To be honest, as evangelists, I find it disturbing that you would taint someone's reputation simply because they did not share your enthusiasm for a business entity. What kind of example is this you are setting? Is this how our Lord wants you to behave? Whatever happened to turning the other cheek?

I think you need to step back a little and re-examine this issue. You have allowed your enthusiasm for a pile of electronics to goad you into making a personal attack on a good man. The hell with Audya's ethics! Where are YOURS?

Wow guys.Now even religion determins if you are good or not.

It's times like these I thank god I'm an atheist.

Amin to that Ian.

THANKS!

To Dennis, Diki and others, my appreciation for your support; not just here but at other times on other issues is humbling. I appreciate you folks.

I APOLOGIZE!

To Henni for letting myself get so involved in this when I really don't understand what the argument is all about.

No APOLOGY!

For my belief that a disreputable business practice that is evidently still going on says volumes about the company and individual involved.

Russ

In case anyone has missed it, Henni and his wife run a traveling ministry in South Africa, right?

That was my understanding, at least. The 'evangelism' comment was intended to address this, NOT his 'evangelism' on behalf of the Audya (which honestly doesn't really need him to stand up against all contrary opinion if the truth be told). Sorry for using the same word for two completely separate actions.

NO, apparently, according to Henni, mere economics determines THAT...

Ethics means nothing if lack of it saves you a buck.

Hehehe..That is a good one Diki.
That is one of the reasons I try to run from religion as far as I can.False morals.

I was going to stay away from this, but now I couldn't ... it is not RELIGION that makes false morals, but PEOPLE !!!

Exactly Tony.And religion is made by those same people.

Yup,

All this Ketron bashing for which Diki is so well known. I bet this thread suits you just fine. He was kind enough ti let you have the Audy for a week, was he not. But then running with the mainstream crowd has always been the easy way.

As for me, I forgive and let go. You pathetic lot cannot seem to let go at all. Have it your way. Reputation means nothing to me. So slander away alk you want.

Your attitude reveals your true personalities, regardless what your mouths say.

I know children who act more like grown ups than you lot.

Henni

What a thin skin some have. You can't even bring up legitimate needs which a piece of gear doesn't address, and all of a sudden you are 'bashing' it? Grow a pair, Henni!

You haven't said a truer word so far Henni.... but it's pretty apparent WHO is behaving like a child.

Take a good look in the mirror, kid.

My friend,

Your avatar says it all, and by your own admission... I need say no more. You and me have absolutely nothing in common, and despite your distorded opinion of being an evangelist, we are not from the same camp!

You sow nothing but negatism and critism wherever you go and you deem yourself knoweledgable enough to comment on every thread on this forum.

I get the impression that you are bored to death and crave for reckognition...

Henni