Arranger and Workstation Integration

Hi:

I play a Tyros 3 and love it. However I am thinking about adding a Workstation (Kronos, Motif or even a Motif Rack). I don't gig, at least not at present. I do compose and would like a workstation as a compliment to the Arranger. My question:

Is anyone doing this?

Is it easy to Midi the two using the T3 as a Master Keyboard for the Workstation?

Is it worthwhile doing?

Thanks,

Joe

Joe,
Yes I have tried it. The problem is the th Tyros is a very poor MIDI controller as most of the panel switches and sliders do not send MIDI out and are not programmable.

So, you can certainly use them together, but not integrated
What's worse is when you select a registration, OTS ect the Yamaha does not have any 'external' setting so you can programm in the Bank/PGM Change messgae sent out when a user voice is selected. The Korg DOES have this feature and I use it.
It would be very easy for Yamaa to do in the OS.

When I called Yamaha on this issue (I had a T2 then) they said 'You don't need that, everything you need is in there and it is a home keyboard not a PRO aranger'

In all honesty..the Korg, while better still is not a full MIDI controller for a MIDI setup of multiple kbds/sound modules.

You might look at it the other way. Use the WS to control the arranger. A PRO WS has extensive MIDI capabiliy, you will need to some homework as to the required MIDI messages to control the aranger...and may need a PC involved as wel.

Another way to go: Use the WS on the bottem, put the arranger on top and just use them seperate. IF you want them close (like an organ) You will need some seperate MIDI mini controllers to control the WS as you will not be able to get to the switches, knobs/sliders.

One of the members here Vagro has done quite a lot and you could check out his work:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vClD9eMq10&feature=related

Seems you people are secretly wishing for a Lionstracs OS driven keyboard..

I have high hopes that at this years music messe they will blow everyone away with a combination of Irish acts new sound set and broad range of top level arranger styles.


Because that is currently the only Workstation with embedded arranger functions...

For composition, it's not really a big issue. There, you have time to shoehorn the different elements together, preferably with a computer DAW at the center, to help everything talk to each other and integrate it all.

But if you are talking about doing it all AT THE SAME TIME, it can get tricky. I like leeboy's idea of using the WS to be the controller (so don't get a rack!), that could be quite doable. I have always wanted to turn my G70/K2500 into a big über-arranger, but the weight of the K2500 makes my G70 feel like a featherweight! Too much to lug to a gig!

But you are going to have to be a bit of a MIDI guru to get them to talk to each other in exactly the way that each wants. If you have a decent working knowledge of CC codes, controller assignments and maybe a bit of sys-ex, it ought to be relatively easy. If you are bit more of a tyro it might be a bit more of a struggle.

Using each, one at a time is no hassle. But if you want to have the arranger engine running, AND the groove loops and KARMA all churning away at the same time under live control, be prepared to spend some time setting all that up.

The Kronos looks VERY promising, and Korg don't usually stint on the MIDI flexibility, so if you can afford one of those, I'd say go for it!

But somewhat limited arranger features. Still no On Bass? What's with that..?! A PRIMARY arranger function. He already HAS an arranger that will blow the MS away. Personally, I'd still shoot for the Korg, as that will come with a MUCH more integrated soundset and still have the flexibility to add more. Perhaps if you ALREADY are a VSTi and computer guru, the MS makes sense, but if he were, he'd already be doing what he wants at home with a computer. The MS is perhaps the ultimate tool for the job, but it comes with formidable learning curve and needs a pretty technical mind to run it well, unless you just stick to presets.

In this case, I think I would stick to the Kronos. It's complicated, but not as much as an MS!

Lee:

I wasn't trying to be to complicated with the set up. Actually I don't need to have the T3 and workstation sounds playing together. I just want to be able to switch between the two but from a single keyboard (T3). For example I may decide to compose using the Motif or better the Motif Rack and use 100% Motif sounds but use the T3 Keyboard. Alternatively I may wish to just use the T3 without the Motif. It's an either or for me.

I realize it would be difficult to play T3 voices with Motif Performances or Korg Combis, or T3 Styles with Motif voices. It would be nice but I don't have to do that and can take my time figuring that out if I can just do what I noted above.

Just trying to get Workstation capability through a rack without having to buy another keyboard or by just using a single keyboard as the master for each.

Joe

I am in the same boat. I really like arrangers but need the workstation functions ,especially in the sequencer. Leeboy summed it up well, I think I will go for Korg too. I really like my Tyros 2 sounds but as a workstation is a bitch. No comprehensive undo functions, etc. Really a shame, 'cause I like the keyboard but I don't want to use more than one.

The Kronos seems very hard to beat as a synth workstation. if only had styles!

The Liontracs is not a arranger to me..period.
When it can compete as an arranger wth Korg/Yamaha/Ketron...then it is an arragner. We are talking fnction AND contents.
Meanwhile, I do think it is a cool WS.

OK Joe..here's the deal. You can MIDI the WS (or rack) to the T3. You can manually select what you want to play on the WS or rack (PER CHANNEL) then the kbd MIDI tracks (Lower, RH1, RH2, RH3)fro the T3 will pay the sounds OK, including velocity and aftertouch. But it is a manual process, you cannot select the sounds on the WS or rack from the T3. At least you can't easily control which patches/combi's get selected very well.

Also any of the CC's (sliders etc) on the WS that you want changed will have to be done on the WS or rack (or another MIDI contoller, like Korg MINI controllers). The T3 will not control the WS.

Actually for full arranger play the WS will not do all the arranger functions either (don't have enough MIDI controllers on the WS) but there is ways to do those from other MIDI devices.

I've experimeted a lot with all this...a lot can be done. But if you wat more than my first paragragh....you willl need to be very MIDI tech capable.

OK, said a easier way...if you had a Motif rack and wanted to play it from a T3...you can do that. BUT you will have no real control over the Motif rack from the T3. I think Mod wheel and pich bend will work. You will have to operate it seperately. Select the sounds (patches, combi's ect) any controller settings etc. The T3 will send out all the channel data from styles and/or the realtime kbd tracks Lower R1, R2 R3 and that will trigger the Motf rack.

I had my Kurzweil K2600X connected to my T2 (later my Korg) and that was my exprience. If you add a computer to the setup, then more capabilities exist.

I hate to say it Joe...but it's kind of a bad dream to do.

A complex setup like Vagro's howeer is super and works nicely...but he is doing something different than you ask about.

Hi,
I tried using my psr as a controller for my SD2 sound module.

Psr couldn't send the correct upper bank & program changes.

( I wanted to use it for extra melody voices for the psr)

Unfortunately SD2 has no buttons, what so ever. It wasn't a good combination , at least if I'd been able to choose sounds on the SD2 itself, it would have helped. On the other hand, my korg PA800 worked perfectly. It sends any bank & program changes required.

If all you're trying to do is use the T3 as a controller for multi track recordings on a workstation (ie record one track at a time), don't see why it wouldn't work.

Are you mainly adding a workstation for additional sounds? because for as little as $50 or so you can get pc sequencer software.

Even though my PA800 has a fairly good sequencer, I still prefer to do any midifile editing in a pc sequencer. My PA800 is permanently midied to my pc or a laptop. Unfortunately my SD2 died, so on occasions I midi the PA800 to my PSR and use the psr as a sound module. Could possibly do it vice versa, but I'd probably have to to choose the sounds manually on the korg, which would be a pain for realtime arranger playing.

My last full workstation was a Korg O1W ( early 90's ) also had a Yamaha QY700 for a couple of years or so, it was great in it's day.

I agree. An arranger just works out of the box, with all the correct styles and chord functions immediately at your disposal.
Having said that, the Liontracs could really blow every arranger out of the water if the company will do all it takes to make it happen.

The Q-ranger seems a great idea but it's still work in progress. It might turn up great or not.

Lee:

Yes, thanks. All I want to do is what you noted in the 1st paragraph. Since I want to add a workstation for additional voices, performances, Arps, sound engines,etc for composition I do not mind manually controlling everything from the workstation or Rack. As I mentioned I just want to play from the T3 keyboard. My setup would either have the Rack right in front of me on a shelf above the T3 or if a got a full workstation it would be just to the left of the T3. It is not a requirement to fully control the WS or Rack from the T3. So hopefully from what you stated it looks like I can easily do what I want with a simple MIDI Out/In relationship between the T3 and WS/Rack and some simple MIDI setup.

Rikki, I don't Sequence so I a PC sequencer wouldn't apply here. I record live to HD. But thanks for the suggestion.

Thanks,

Joe

Joe,
It will work OK.
You will have to go to the MIDI setup and be sure some (especially program change) messages are tured OFF...or thing will get crazy.
If you decide to try it...I would be glad to help anyway I can.

I havw 2 yamaha psrs. One is used in tandem with a Korg M3 and the other with a yamaha XF. It has irs pros and cons but it does give you way more options and polyphony.

Lee, thanks. I may take you up on your offer when I get there. I may wait for the Motif XF Rack to get the improved Piano offerings in the XF.

ricok, nice setup. I'd love to have that feature set. What a variety of sounds!

Joe

I believe I've been saying the bold section for four or five years now. It doesn't seem, after all this time to actually do it, that the company CAN. You're on your own, boys!