LIVE IN YOUR FACE DRUMS not Important anymore?

Seems only a short while ago everyone was raving about the Audya and its IN YOUR FACE drums versus any other arranger on the market. Go back & read the old posts to refresh ...Now since the release of the Tyros4 & Korg PA3x you hardly hear about them let alone the Audya 76 Audya61 at all anymore..Hmmmmmm? strange isn't it?.... is everybody satisfied with the t4/Pa3x drums to a point where they are now equal to the great Live sound of the Audya or is it that something new makes you forget?
Let's face it we really have three newer TOTL units now that are all different in many ways. It just struck me funny that no one is commenting on how LIVE they sound vs Canned CD.

I haven't see any post about the Audya also. I tried the audya for a night that a buddy let me use and I have to say the styles were great. I think its probaly one of the best sounding keyboards out there. But I still have doubts if the all of the glitches were resolved (style looping issue)and I find that Ketron USA really does not want a dealer network either. I'm waiting for this big push on styles, but its been two years since the audya release and nothing yet. I don't want to purchase another keyboard and be left out in the cold with style support like I was with the SD5.

I have not tried the T4 yet, but going through all of the videos and demos, I don't see anything that is much different from the T3, which I pasted on.

I'm hoping I can try both T4 & PA3x. I have GC, 1 mile away and SA, 4 miles away and both refuse to carry anymore arranger keyboards.

One day I'll have to shoot up to Franks when he get them in.

Donny
The PA2 drums are just right for me and the PA3 are supposed to be better yet.

IMHO, In your face drums are only important for playing in front of a dance crowd..something I do not do. I would hate to have to tone them down for normal music.

Once you tweek the master EQ a bit (and you also have a 3 band EQ for EVERY track) in the PA....it has PLENTY of punch.

Since nobody much has actually HEARD the PAX3 drums it's hard to tell.
I didn't buy a Tyros 4 simply because the drums didn't improve enough to suit me.
It is well documented how great the Audya drums are, so no need to keep harping on it.
Roland drums are acceptable to me, and on some styles the Yamahas are o.k., but on too many they are not. Again, this is FOR ME.
DonM

I'm finding the T4 drums are purposely toned down in most of the styles. I have edited the styles and raised the levels of both the drums and the bass, and they sound pretty comparable to the other keyboards you mention.

The Ketron is so in your face because they are the most prominent instrument in the mix; that in itself has it's drawbacks.

So your saying you can make the T4 drums sound just as good "in your face" live as the Audya?

[quote=kbrkr]I'm finding the T4 drums are purposely toned down in most of the styles. I have edited the styles and raised the levels of both the drums and the bass, and they sound pretty comparable to the other keyboards you mention.

I find the same to be true in the Tyros 1. If you go into the OS and play around with it, you can have drums coming out of your butt. I've see Gary's posts over the years about how he tweaks the PSR 3000. Well let me tell you, spend time in the style editor and you can have your styles kicking ass. I can't believe it took me this long to discover this!

Joe

One of the main faults I found with the Tyros 1 that I owned is the drums were not loud enough in the style for my use. I like to use an arranger in a trio with a sax and trumpet player. In a trio the drums were never loud enough to suit me.

Tom

Tom, that's my point. As they are, the drums are not loud enough at all. In some instances, they suck. However, go into the style editor and crank them up, and with a great PA system, they will blow you out of the room.

Joe

Joe I think we are confusing the point that it is not just loudness of the drums..... any arranger can increase the levels...it is the actual DRUM SAMPLE that needs to sound like a "LIVE" drummer not a compressed CD. Here lies the problem in question.

Donny I agree with you but how many people are just using the styles as they are? Probably more than care to admit it. And if you've spent any time at all with Yamahas, you know the styles need reworking to really kick ass.

Joe

I understand that Joe ....I have been tweaking the Yamaha drums for many years to get them to my standards along with making the style as a whole sound the way I want.... but the actual sample is a big key to it also....... my point is that all of a sudden the live issue has been subdues drastically from a few months ago.

It takes just a few minutes to tune those drums and as Joe said, they'll blow you out of the room. There is a lot more to tuning than just turning up the volume. The attack, decay, EQ, etc..., they all have a significant impact. Once tuned, you have two options--save the information to a registration, or save it as a custom style. If you've downloaded the Black Velvet style I used for the song and fired it through your keyboard, that is a classic example. Additionally, tuning the global EQs has a significant effect on the drum sounds as well. You would be amazed at the number of performers I come across that have NEVER seen their EQ page, let alone set and saved them.

Cheers,

Gary

http://www.4shared.com/audio/rcxx9qhk/test_sound_msp_audya_5.html



In this demo you can hear the live drum sample.

and yet another Drum comparison Audya vs Tyros3

http://hubpages.com/hub/When-Will-The-Ketron-Audya-Arranger-Keyboard-Be-Released

I don't know maybe my ears are too sensitive? but I can't seem to find an arranger that is current, that will sound like an AUDYA,to me it sounds like night and day. Although some of us have bought a YAMAHA TYROS 4, or looking to get the latest from KORG or whoever,the AUDYA has raised the bar too high as far as sound to the ear,not that the TYROS or others are not fine instruments, they are all very good tools to make music.

Vengelis I agree if LIVE drums is your bag & you must have an arranger Kb Audya is it......Workstations can really sound live also..... too bad Ketron wont get their act together...people don't want to read about support problems and the rarity of ever finding one ion a store in their area, or bugs they just want to buy one and enjoy playing it problem free....is that too much to ask for a $4500.00+ KB?

I wish that audio loops were not being held out as the savior to the 'wimpy drum' syndrome. While, yes, you CAN get great live feel from these, THAT'S IT... You can't edit them, you can't tone them down, you can't change them into a brushes kit, or a rods kit, or a smaller hiphop kit. You can't edit the odd backbeat to get a beat that works with a particular song, you can't change the ride pattern into a shaker sound... etc., etc., etc..

Anyone that has listened to the best VSTi drum libraries out there knows that audio and MIDI can be virtually indistinguishable. But you need samples that are recorded with good velocity switches, and you need samples recorded in a live drum room, with a bit of 'air' around them (because a recording of a live player playing a drumkit is going to have that). I think that is what the Yamaha's miss. Their drums have that sort of seventies 'dry' sound, which you then stick a hall reverb round, and now you are in eighties hell!

I think the Audya's have a huge step over the Roland TOTL's when it comes to guitars, but in fairness, I've got some drum grooves in the G70, that use those T-Drum sample kits (that DO have air recorded on them) that come AWFULLY close to the Audya, but suffer none of the disadvantages outlined above.

Bottom line, any arranger with a sampler in it, ought to be able to be outfitted with some kits that do do what you want. But go down the audio loop path, and you give up SO MUCH of what makes an arranger so useful...

Its' flexibility.

Correct me if I am wrong but, don't you also have the option of using MIDI and different drum kits on the AUDYA?

I think you can, but it's an either/or thing. You can't say substitute a different snare in the audio loop, or move it's kick to a slightly different pattern, and so far, as far as I can remember, nobody has posted an Audya demo where they proudly pointed to the drums and went 'that's the MIDI drums!'. So far, it's only been the Live Loops that have been showcased.

For me, it's primarily about having the drum samples recorded ambiently. Once that is done (and the sample have at LEAST four or more velocity cross-switches), then a well played MIDI pattern stands a real good chance of being mistaken for the real thing.

I just found out that you can actually have Audio Drums Loops,MIDI Drums and a 2nd percussion. AWESOME! now only a touch screen and 512 User Ram,PADS,RIBBON Control and your set, ooops, am I getting closer to the PA3X specs?

Just wondering what you need 512mb of user ram for?

I find my Audya 76 everything I had hoped for and more, and I haven't even begun to delve into live drum and guitar substitution etc. etc.

The reason I don't keep raving about mine, as Don M say, is that the features are well known by now. I was lucky that mine had no problems but posting always brings on the "yeah buts".

Yes, it is a lot for a keyboard, but it is sure worth it for me.
Bernie

Exactly Tony they should have at least 12G on board Ram

Lucky you Bernie...you have the real one, two punch...not sure what the correct order would be..Audya or G70..

You have the unsurpassed editing of the G70 with make up tools to boot...and a smart harmonizer for easy use..on the G70.....and the great audio drums, bass, guitar on the Audya that makes the styles the best...

Both of these instruments are the best live sound today..


I agree ..no sense reminding folks how great these boards are..those that own them...already know......So let the limelight shine on the new Korg's and Tyros4 ...for now...

Yikes! 512MB not ENOUGH RAM? And just exactly how much are you using now?

Akai samplers were the industry standard for years with as little as 32MB RAM.

Rampant 'spec-itis' once again. There's MUCH more to a sampler than just the size of its RAM. How fast it loads, maybe? Or how much third party sounds are available? Not much point in 12GB if you can only buy about 512MB from the store (don't kid yourself that making great usable instrument multisamples is anything but almost the hardest task in music).

You want 12GB of samples online instantly, go buy a Kronos. It's the ONLY thing with this in hardware. Or get an MS or a Receptor, etc.. All of those will set you back at least $3000. Added TO your current arranger price (nothing gets added for free!).

You want it ALL, you want it NOW, and you want it FREE...!

And you probably wouldn't use it if you had it. I repeat... How much of the RAM on your CURRENT arranger's sampler are you using? Got it maxed out all the time, maybe you have a point. But I bet you aren't..!

The S6000 had 256K which was way ahead of it's time, I currently have 64 megs (PA800) and that is not enough, why would 1 gig add thousands to the price? the year is not 1985 but 2011 and components have become very cheap we pay for R&D not components.
At the way the musicians salaries are going, and the economic crises, looks like we we will upgrade less frequently.

You meant 256MB, I'm sure.

The real problem starts because arrangers have closed architectures, and not exactly computer-fast data pipes. Sure, you can have 1GB of RAM, but, as in the T3 that had this, load-up time was HOURS. Simply not practical.

Until a whole new generation of embedded systems and chips becomes available to manufacturers (and by then, computer systems will address so much so quickly that it STILL won't make you guys happy!), the speed of loading the RAM becomes a bigger consideration that the total RAM.

And, particularly in the Yamaha's example, even though you could have a GB or 2 of RAM, Yamaha had very few sounds for sale. If you bought them ALL, I doubt it would even make a dent in that GB...

The T4 has introduced FLASH RAM, which mitigates the problem of load up (only have to do it the once) but it's expensive (and miserly compared to the MoXF's) and they still don't have what anyone would call a good selection of sounds for it. And, knowing Yamaha, just as they have done in the past, whatever works for the MoXF won't probably load and play in the T4.

The Left Hand of Yamaha absolutely REFUSES to shake hands with the Right...!